Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Kittamaru]

Okay the whole No shield theory of RSA calls for a shield outside the atmosphere. Yet on Hoth we get the distint impression the shield is inside the atmosphere.

Hoth shows that as least a theater grade shield is possible and a small, poorly equiped force can aquire one. Now since novels claim several planets have shields and the movies do not deny this. Why would not one of the most wealthy planets have a set of plantetary shields?


Also note what he calls atmosphere ignition, obviously isn't. The green glow expands rapidly, but underneath you can see intact clouds and ocean. Much like a shield under attack is translucent.

Uh... what does the ocean have with the atmosphere igniting? And it OBVIOUSLY does- the clouds are not intact, but are in fact MUCH brighter. If there was a shield UNDER the clouds, wouldn't the light be DIMMER there due to the translucent nature of clouds? Or are the Clouds on aldaraan light-focusing super-clouds of some sort?

Scott, honestly. Everything seen on that scene says no shield.

And IIRC, on hoth, the shields did NOT cover the entire planet. In fact, they only covered small portions of it. That is different than a full-scale planetary shield. Now, Aldaraan MAY have had a shield like Hoth, but it was obviously NOT shielded where the DS Sl hit.

[Hellblade8]

Or if it did, it wasn't on during the time of the Death Star attacking.

[Saquist]

Hey, Saquist didn't you say that ST firepower was 6 - 8 times more powerful than SW firepower? What was your source/equation for that again?

There's no way to really gauge the actually firepower. The best situations we've seen the ISD display fire power is up against rocks. We can only use unshielded objects as a true baseline.

Thus a comparison is the best we can do. An unshielded comparison from both universes. The result?

Imperial Star Destroyer
One unshielded 40 meter wide asteroid (size questionable) vaporized instantly.

Federation Galaxy Class.
Enterprise vaporizes 20% of a Borg Cube in three seconds.
With the Cube's size at 3040m a single blast destroyed metallica compounds in a spherical area of 240 meters, instantly.

That's 6 to 8 times the power of the ISD display. 6 to 8 just because the phaser vaporized metal alloys that are built for space travel.


To this day Scott has been able to effectively counter this obvious example of unshielded comparisons. His attempts have been the claim that 80% of the 20% of the Borg structure that was destroyed was open air.

You see, each section of the Borg ship that was vaporized was 240 meters of a 3040m structure. Or 20% 240 meters is 6 times that of a 40 meter asteroid that the Star Destroyer Avenger vaporized.

When we factor in the difference between vaporizing alloy metals in a starship made for space flight vs. unrefined Iron/Nickel Ore...Well the Display Enterprise put up against Borg Cube was substantially more impressive.

TWScotch has been unable to articulate the proper variable in this comparison by saying that the 20% damage Data reported was damage to OPEN SPACE?

Well that may make sense to a chipmunk but in math that makes no sense at all. What TW was trying to say was The ship's density did not warrant 6 times as much.

However unless he can prove that the 240 meter area vaporize was less dense than a 40 meter asteroid he has no defense. (except for stupid.)

[Saquist]

Consider how powerfull that is.
The phaser beam it'self is two meters mabe three meters wide. The beam took out a spherical area of 240 meters in three different strikes. HUGE Craters in the Borg vessel.

The area destroyed was 120x the size of the phaser beam.
The phaser might be....1.20 gigawatts....but effectively it's chain reaction ability is exponetialy powerful effecting wide areas.

Incredibly Powerful.

[Hellblade8]

I would also like to mention, that while you might assume the area destroyed was half empty (a fair way to look at it), the astroid that the ISD destroyed was only a few meters in size, while the Borg ship took three holes about the size of the Enterprise D. In otherwords, at full power (I assume it was at full power), it just basicly vaporized the equal of an ISD and a half.

Yeah, and that's vaporized as well as done with incredible speed.

[halo07guy]

Kittamaru, I discovered that the link you posted was biased towards trek. It had a section called "Rabid Warsies", meaning that the other had indeed planned for his evidence to "prove" Star Trek was more powerful. I don't agree with Wongs site either. The site also ignored Star Wars EU, which as TW said, does have a cruiser firing its guns from across the star system. I was looking for a site that took the canon abilitys of both sides and compared them. This includes the controversial ICS books and Gene Roddenberry's book.

TW, a Particle Shield is all you would need to defend a planet from an asteroid. And particle shields do not block energy. So it is very possible that Alderaan had a particle shield up, not a ray shield, which would be need to defend against the DS's attack.

Blade, are you sure it was a few meters wide? The camera is quite a long ways away from the asteroid and ISD, and then we don't know the distance between the asteroid and ISD. I also noticed that the asteroid that hit the ISD was about a fourth the size of the bridge, and the bridge is about a third the width of an ISD.

Somethig I've noticed for both sides is that if each side does the math for their side, they tend to get huge numbers. And if one side does the math for the other, they tend to get low numbers for the opposing side. I'm looking for a third party site that does not do either of these and just compares canon info and non-biased math on the movies. Emphasis on the word non-biased.

I thought I should tell you guys about the number I got concerning the Ten light minutes thing in Episode 3 ICS, and I arrived at this number: 111,600,000 miles. This is miles so if you guys can convert it into kilometers, then we can get a good estimate on the maximum effective range of the Venator's HTLs. The online calculator I used can only accept 2 numbers at a time, otherwise you get 0. So for this I had to put in 10 times 60, getting 600, then multiplied it by 186,000. Type in online calculator in google and click on the 8th one down, including the ones in the yellow box.

I suggest we use that site for any further calculations. Also, wikipedia has a list of links in it concerning sites favored by each side. i suggest we don't use those sites on the list. I suggest you look up the topic on wikipedia. The links will be at the bottom of the page

The site list is at the very bottom of the page. Sorry if this offends anyone or gets anyone mad. And I'm sorry I can't post links. Its the stupid post limit thing.

[Kittamaru]

The site is slightly biased, but the numbers he runs are not halo07. You have to remember- RSA has been taking a LOT of flack from Wong and TWScott. Not just verbal abuse and slander, but also attempts at hacking the site and redirecting links from his site to illicit sites that try to install spyware on your PC. RSA has every right to call Wong a "rabid warsie" because Wong not only provides deathly inaccurate information, he also attempts to undermine RSA using underhanded and dirty techniques.

Also- HTL's are manned by people. They can only fire as far as they can see via visual input or sensor readings. Treks phasers fire via computer control, giving it nearly real-time autoupdates that no human could match. While a HTL may be able to TRAVEL even interstellar distances, there is no effective way they could actually HIT anything but a stationary target at such a divide.

Trek's phasers have the same thing to contend with across interstellar ranges, also factoring in the deterioration over range. However, their torpedos are incredibly accurate against large, slow vessels and even smaller, manuvering ones. Against something like an ISD, which has shown to have VERY limited manuverability, it would be like shooting at a starbase. Heck, I'd reckon they'd whip out a few artiliary photons or even Tri-Cobalt devices and simply godsmack the ISD.

But that's just going on what I have seen on screen- while the books may indicate extreme range encounters, given the nature of the Wars weaponry, it is highly unlikely to be EFFECTIVE at such ranges given the nature that it is a person firing the gun. Also, do not forget- should the target move, change direction or velocity, or otherwise manuver at all, the blaster bolt will miss as it has NO internal guidance, unlike a Torpedo.

[Kittamaru]

Also, Halo07, the reason numbers get biased is because it is unlikely you will actually get a third party to do this for you. RSA actually, at times, gives Wars a huge advantage assuming the best conditions for Wars and the Worst for trek. He, unlike a majority of sites, actually concedes a few points to Wars that they deserve.

[Hellblade8]

Kittamaru, I discovered that the link you posted was biased towards trek. It had a section called "Rabid Warsies", meaning that the other had indeed planned for his evidence to "prove" Star Trek was more powerful. I don't agree with Wongs site either. The site also ignored Star Wars EU, which as TW said, does have a cruiser firing its guns from across the star system. I was looking for a site that took the canon abilitys of both sides and compared them. This includes the controversial ICS books and Gene Roddenberry's book.

Its possible to hit something on the other side of a solar system given that since there is no friction in space, a weapon could just go on until it hits something. If your fighting a large fleet on the other side, its possible that the two could hit each other just based on that account. Doubtful for this example, but I'd thought I'd just mention it.

TW, a Particle Shield is all you would need to defend a planet from an asteroid. And particle shields do not block energy. So it is very possible that Alderaan had a particle shield up, not a ray shield, which would be need to defend against the DS's attack.

A partical shield wouldn't make too much sense since this would make it hard for any ship to leave the planet. They actually have to lower the entire shield grid in order to let something in or out. So it wouldn't make much sense to worry about that. Any astroid or space junk would be detected long before it hit the planet, thus making having it on at all times would be a major waste of energy.

Furthermore, if a shield was up on Alderaan, I have to ask why the DS was able to blast through it. A planet like Alderaan would dwarf the energy output that a moon station could put forth any day in a week for the next hundred years. In all likelyhood, planetary shielding is so far behind firepower that its not possible to stop that much power. Granted, there are other reasons it could break through, but just to put forward a fairly simple reason here.

Blade, are you sure it was a few meters wide? The camera is quite a long ways away from the asteroid and ISD, and then we don't know the distance between the asteroid and ISD. I also noticed that the asteroid that hit the ISD was about a fourth the size of the bridge, and the bridge is about a third the width of an ISD.

I didn't mean that as a water tight description.

Here is a pick of the astroid. According to Wong, who is pro-star wars, the astroid was about 40 meters long. It was likely made of rock and nickel. Basicly this should explain it all:




As you can clearly see, the idea that Star Wars has "proven" to have stronger weapons is silly. Here we see a UFP ship can easily deal damage to a target that while does hold empty space, is also damaged in a much (MUCH) larger area and was made not only to withstand space flight, but made for battle as well. The sheer level of destruction is incredible, and that's just the phasers, which are secondary in power compared to the 80 megaton torps they fire.

[halo07guy]

I realize the numbers aren't, but very often, you will find people who will "do the math", and if they come up with a number that dosen't favor their side, they do math again and again until they come up with one that supposedly proves their side is stronger and the other is weaker.

And I beleive HTLs use a combination of people and computers. People to prioritiize targets during combat and to target specific points on a ship, computers for extreamly long range combat where you just want to hit the target. Computers are also used for point defense against fighters. And the visual range thing is probably true, but visual range in space depends on the size of the target. a huge capital ship like an ISD is visible fro many thousands of miles in all directions. An both sides torpedos seem to be fairly accurate and powerful, but Trek seems to have the advantage in range and speed because of warp. Thing is, Star Wars happens too have quite alot of superweapons. And then theres the hyperspace ram tactic. For those of you that don't know, an object in realspace casts a mass-shadow in hyperspace. If a ship hits another ships mass-shadow, then both ships get destroyed by the kinetic force. The Empire could very well do the same thing to the federation, though it would be costly and the ships would have to be AI controlled. The tactic would probably be used only during seiges and such.

Frankly, I would relie on the numbers provided by a site that has a highly trained video analyst, a math professor, a physicist(sp), a geologist(for asteroid scenes), and a astronomer(sp).

Basically, my point is that the orignal set of numbers from each side is correct, but the numbers people get from those numbers and their math cannot be trusted to be accurate.

The ISD manuvarability thing may or may not be correct. In the ESB scene, you see one or two manuvaring(sp). It is very possible thta those 2 were above or below the middle one and were simply manuvering to avoid the bottom ones bridge. It makes some sense as we se the commander taking evasive action while outside the window, we see an ISD trench. And Admiral Piet was a Captain of I beleive a Carrack cruiser during the Battle of Coruscant. His Carrack was, coincidently, one of the ones attacking and preventing the Invisible Hand from jumping. The reason it does not seem like they manuver much is because the triangle shape of the ship allows them to focus all their batterys on one point: in front of the ship. In this way, ISDs are designed somewhat better then the Enterprise series of ships, though this is balanced by the fact that the Enterprise has photon torpedos.

Sorry about any spelling errors. I had a bug when I was typing that would delete anything in front of it and then make the characters.

[halo07guy]

Question bout the borg. It seems to me that their ships appear to be little more then accumaleted junk,at least in appearence. Do they actually build them, or are they really accumalated cubes of space junk and debris from destroyed ships?

And my point about Piet was that in order for a small ship like a Carrack to survive in the Battle of Coruscant, its Captain would have to know a lot about manuvaring(sp). Of course, I could be thinking the Piet in the ROTS novel is the one in the movies. It is very possible that the Piet in the book is the Admirals father.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Wong's numbers are wrong. In the movie, we definately see a asteroid bigger then 40 meters hit the bridge. If it was 40 meters around, then that would be contradicting the canon length of a ISD at 1600 meters.

When i was talking about the camera,asteroid, and ISD, I meant the shooting scene where their destroying asteroids.

Try looking up Sci-Fi ship compariosn(sp) in google images.

[Kittamaru]

Actually, the Enterprise would beat a ISD as far as having firepower concentrated- it's torpedo tubes can fire faster and the phaser strips cover at least 90* on all emiters, 360 on a few, and 180 to 270 on most of them. Side and front weapons can fire foward, side and rear can fire back, side and bottom and front and rear can fire down and up.

[Hellblade8]

Question bout the borg. It seems to me that their ships appear to be little more then accumaleted junk,at least in appearence. Do they actually build them, or are they really accumalated cubes of space junk and debris from destroyed ships?

They build them. Yeah, when you first see the Borg ship in TNG it looks like a flying scrap heap, but that isn't actually the case. That's the way the Borg intend them to be. When First Contact comes about they re-did the Borg Cube so that its more true to what they had in mind rather than what they could only do on TV series budget.

And again, even though the ships don't look like they where well built, they are perhaps the bets built ships in Star Trek and most Sci-fi. A Borg cube literally is capable of ignoring all damage once its adapted to a weapon. The Borg have two methods of shielding. The first being that of a normal ship, and that of adaption, in which case the shields are able to do something that apparently cancels out the attacking energy with incredible ease. In Voyager, we see an alien race fighting the Borg, and the Queen stated that their shields where about to collapse and they would soon be destroyed. Then she adapted the cube shields to the enemy weapons. The cube ceased shaking and where in a very powerful position. Hell, even when the UFP is able to deal some damage by re-modulating their weapons, they can only deal a little damage to the ship.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Wong's numbers are wrong. In the movie, we definately see a asteroid bigger then 40 meters hit the bridge. If it was 40 meters around, then that would be contradicting the canon length of a ISD at 1600 meters.

Take Wong and Darkstar's sites at arm's length. Though, I would like to note that when the ISD was destroyed, this was moments after the ISD was ignoring small astorids that exploded upon impacting their shields (apparently the shields did this...)

[halo07guy]

I have a theory about the borg. If you stop using a kind of attack for a few years, do they kind of become weak to that kind of attack again? I mean if they become adaptive to Photon torps and you stop using them for a while, will they become weak to that attack?

Another theory of mine about the borg is that they don't become invincible to an attack, but pretty damn close to it. I mean their shields make a phasers strength go from 100%, or full damage, to something like 5 to 1%.

Would an extreamly powerful EMP, such as that of a supernova, harm the borg at all? It seems to me that an EMP would be lethal to the borg, given the fact that their about 90% robotic.

Also, the Enterprise can focus all its batterys above or below, but not forward of the ship. In a head-on engagement, an ISD would be able to focus all its guns to the front of the ship. This includes its HTLs. The Enterprise can only focus about about 75% of its weapons forward of the ship. I think that the ISD could down the shields and maybe punch through the ships armor. And then theres the problem of the Empire deciding to mass produce Sovereign-Class and Eclipse-Class destroyers. I think the superlaser of the ships could punch through a ship like the Enterprise's shields extreamly easly. But a minimum of I think of three shots would be required to destroy the Enterprise.

I'm pretty sure the Death Star didn't use a chain reaction, but rather pure energy to destroy the planet. There is no evidence of any kind of chain reaction.Plus I'm pretty sure the designers of the Death Star would be smart enough to know that a chain reaction would be kind of risky so close to the Death Star and its core. If a single beam malfunctionend or scattered, then the entire base would of exploded. I'm pretty sure it used a single beam of energy to destroy the target.

I'm pretty sure Alderaan had a shield, but didn't activate it because,well, who would expect their own goverment to blow the crap out of them.

Still, I've been running searchs on google for sites about this topic, and every single one has been biased towards one side or another. I think we should stop trusting the info on sites like St-v-Sw and SD.net.

Anyone know what happened to the guy who was running simulations on his computer? We could really use him right now. All we have to do is give him the canon numbers from each sides primary ships, and have him report back. We could probably get him to create a simulation of the ESB asteroid field and the ISD to see what kind of damage those things can take.

[Kittamaru]

Actually, the Ent-D is old hat mate. The Ent-E would be able to simply manuver out of the way of any firepower worth worrying about that an ISD or even a SSD could lay out. HTL's and SuperLasers wouldn't be able to track the Ent-E during low speed warp strafing.

And yes, we CAN assume they can manuver at warp. Why? Watch Nemesis.

The Ent-E is en route to the battlegroup. Data stops talking mid sentence and Picard suddenly comms the bridge and shouts "Evasive Action"

They were STILL at warp. Granted, the command came a bit late to be useful, but that would imply they CAN indeed manuver at warp.

So the Ent would just warp around the ISD or SSD and pound it to dust with photon and quantum torpedos.

Also, on the Ent-E, 120% of it's firepower is focused foward, given the rapid-fire Q-torp turret. That is a HUGE damage output on that alone.

Also, remember. All energy weapons have a harmonic frequency. Find that frequency and tune your shields to the exact opposite, and now unless the sheer amplitude and energy output of the energy weapon is far in excess of your own shielding, it is VERY unlikely to do any noticable damage.

Also, another possibility is that the Ent-E would simply pinpoint the fire-control centers on the ship and the weapons batteries and take them out with a rapid-fire phaser strike that would, in all honesty, most likely overload the shield generators on the SD.

[Saquist]

A partical shield wouldn't make too much sense since this would make it hard for any ship to leave the planet. They actually have to lower the entire shield grid in order to let something in or out. So it wouldn't make much sense to worry about that. Any astroid or space junk would be detected long before it hit the planet, thus making having it on at all times would be a major waste of energy.

Timothy Zahn invented the planetary shield in The Heir to the Empire. The shield was definitely a particle shield as the Grand Admiral Thrawn used cloaked asteroids against the planet.

They are also energy shields. During the Yuuzahn Vong invasion the Vong had to sabotage those generators before attacking the planet directly.

Furthermore, if a shield was up on Alderaan, I have to ask why the DS was able to blast through it. A planet like Alderaan would dwarf the energy output that a moon station could put forth any day in a week for the next hundred years. In all likelyhood, planetary shielding is so far behind firepower that its not possible to stop that much power. Granted, there are other reasons it could break through, but just to put forward a fairly simple reason here.

There was no shield you on Alderaan. None was mentioned in the Absolute canon of the Films.



I didn't mean that as a water tight description.

Here is a pick of the astroid. According to Wong, who is pro-star wars, the astroid was about 40 meters long. It was likely made of rock and nickel. Basicly this should explain it all:




As you can clearly see, the idea that Star Wars has "proven" to have stronger weapons is silly. Here we see a UFP ship can easily deal damage to a target that while does hold empty space, is also damaged in a much (MUCH) larger area and was made not only to withstand space flight, but made for battle as well. The sheer level of destruction is incredible, and that's just the phasers, which are secondary in power compared to the 80 megaton torps they fire.

Incredible. My numbers apply well to this illistration. Excellent work! Silly indeed. Even I didn't realise that the amount of material consumed in this strike was so considerable as to be large section of an Imperial Star Destroyer.

Your illistrations are condeming facts to the star wars claim to superior fire power. The proof is in the pudding. Good Work.

I realize the numbers aren't, but very often, you will find people who will "do the math", and if they come up with a number that dosen't favor their side, they do math again and again until they come up with one that supposedly proves their side is stronger and the other is weaker.

My math is estimates. That's all. they are merely based on comparison. and the canon figures offered by on screen information. Quite simply it establishes....Greater than the Star Wars. That's it.

And it now a fact.
There are no numbers here that are fabricated. And Unlike Wong his Star Wars fanatics i haven't created power usage numbers that could be contradicted by canon at present or in the future. I've merely established...greater.

Frankly, I would relie on the numbers provided by a site that has a highly trained video analyst, a math professor, a physicist(sp), a geologist(for asteroid scenes), and a astronomer(sp).

These things are usely, subjective...and have a large margin of error.

The ISD manuvarability thing may or may not be correct. In the ESB scene, you see one or two manuvaring(sp). It is very possible thta those 2 were above or below the middle one and were simply manuvering to avoid the bottom ones bridge.

While the ISD is capable of great speed. it's manuverability is very cumbersome.

What we see in the movie is that the pilots make the smart desicion. The middle ISD is going down and the Two flanking vessels are evading up away. Infact you can see the Middle ISD in the very end of the sequence tilting hard toward it's ventral side. Smart manuvering but stupid that they got each other in that situation in the first place.

Question bout the borg. It seems to me that their ships appear to be little more then accumaleted junk,at least in appearence. Do they actually build them, or are they really accumalated cubes of space junk and debris from destroyed ships?

It's more like parts. not junk. The borg have no need for astetics so it's placed orderly and in a effective position. The vessel are built like this as Every borg cube looks the same.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Wong's numbers are wrong. In the movie, we definately see a asteroid bigger then 40 meters hit the bridge. If it was 40 meters around, then that would be contradicting the canon length of a ISD at 1600 meters.

Wong's 40 meter estimate was not for the asteroid collision scene but for the asteroid vaporization scene. or so I've been told.

They build them. Yeah, when you first see the Borg ship in TNG it looks like a flying scrap heap, but that isn't actually the case. That's the way the Borg intend them to be. When First Contact comes about they re-did the Borg Cube so that its more true to what they had in mind rather than what they could only do on TV series budget.

I concure. To stick with the story line. I merely asume the borg adapted there hull design to provide better defense against the Federations cunning in the future. And it was effective. The weapons in first contact. had much more tougher time with penetrating the hull. Cubes had definitely become armored sinced then. the Cubes shields were down as stated by the movie.

I have a theory about the borg. If you stop using a kind of attack for a few years, do they kind of become weak to that kind of attack again? I mean if they become adaptive to Photon torps and you stop using them for a while, will they become weak to that attack?

I think you're right. However if the same strategy is introduced again and the Borg or given time to adjust there tactics then they are onced more effectievely invunerable to the attack.

Another theory of mine about the borg is that they don't become invincible to an attack, but pretty damn close to it. I mean their shields make a phasers strength go from 100%, or full damage, to something like 5 to 1%.

I agree with you, However given that the Borg shield and ...practicely everything else regenerates rather quickly...then in damage you've done on such a small level might as well be invulnerable. The Cube would never be in danger.

Would an extreamly powerful EMP, such as that of a supernova, harm the borg at all? It seems to me that an EMP would be lethal to the borg, given the fact that their about 90% robotic.

Negative. Borg Cubes are protected by electromagnetics fields. stated by multiple episodes of TNG

Still, I've been running searchs on google for sites about this topic, and every single one has been biased towards one side or another. I think we should stop trusting the info on sites like St-v-Sw and SD.net.

I can not conccur with your assetment. In terms of honesty St-vs-Sw is much more truthful than Wong's site.

I still disagree with some of st-vs-sw conclusion on fleet size of the Federation and speed of Hyperspace...but he'se fantical about numbers and I am not. I base my conclusions on comparisons.

[USS Athens]

Its possible to hit something on the other side of a solar system given that since there is no friction in space, a weapon could just go on until it hits something. If your fighting a large fleet on the other side, its possible that the two could hit each other just based on that account. Doubtful for this example, but I'd thought I'd just mention it.



A partical shield wouldn't make too much sense since this would make it hard for any ship to leave the planet. They actually have to lower the entire shield grid in order to let something in or out. So it wouldn't make much sense to worry about that. Any astroid or space junk would be detected long before it hit the planet, thus making having it on at all times would be a major waste of energy.

Furthermore, if a shield was up on Alderaan, I have to ask why the DS was able to blast through it. A planet like Alderaan would dwarf the energy output that a moon station could put forth any day in a week for the next hundred years. In all likelyhood, planetary shielding is so far behind firepower that its not possible to stop that much power. Granted, there are other reasons it could break through, but just to put forward a fairly simple reason here.



I didn't mean that as a water tight description.

Here is a pick of the astroid. According to Wong, who is pro-star wars, the astroid was about 40 meters long. It was likely made of rock and nickel. Basicly this should explain it all:




As you can clearly see, the idea that Star Wars has "proven" to have stronger weapons is silly. Here we see a UFP ship can easily deal damage to a target that while does hold empty space, is also damaged in a much (MUCH) larger area and was made not only to withstand space flight, but made for battle as well. The sheer level of destruction is incredible, and that's just the phasers, which are secondary in power compared to the 80 megaton torps they fire.

And knowing how complex and how "compacted" if you will, a borg cub is. Man... And scott is quite crazy if he's going to try to defy this... Knowing how he usaully manages these things, he won't talk to the person, but usaully the one whom brings it up again.

[Nickelodeon]

Man, George Lucas will be spinning in his grave. Assuming he sleeps in a grave.

[USS Athens]

Actually the New Jedi Order starts with Luke, but it doesn't matter the Novels are part of Star Wars Canon

Why? What are we going to do when Lucas dies? Plus with novels can come contradicting storylines, since the're basically fan-fiction.

[USS Athens]

Don't recall much of Voyager, but more than likely they raped the laws of physics...again.

Not really raped the laws of physics... They really don't do that. She was actully imagining it up to the point that they crashed. [first time]