Star Wars vs Star Trek

**Lord Vasago** · 06-12-07, 03:10 AM

If phasers have no physical mass, the they would be useless against gungan shields, or am i wrong at this?

**Fettman** · 06-12-07, 07:58 AM

Sounds about right to me, but then again phasers are just angry flashlights.

**Lord Vasago** · 06-12-07, 08:59 AM

So when phasers can't penetrate gungan shields St has only his torpedos left?

sound interessting doesn't it

**Kittamaru** · 06-12-07, 12:48 PM

Vasago, Blaster's aren't lasers. They have a physical mass as seen when they impact- they impart a kinetic energy. Thus they can not be a light speed weapon as they would cease to be the moment they hit lightspeed. They might go .75 or .9 the speed of light, but they cannot go 100% light speed

In Warp you move, but the universe moves as well. You move through "warp space" while you warp the rest of space around you.

PHASERS aren't in a different dimension per say, I should have worded that better. PHASER stands for PHASed Energy Rectification. It's sort of like the Polaron beam of the Dominion- at the right frequency, it can pass through the shield harmonics of a ship.

Phasers CAN be used in warp, but they would most likely impact the ship. It's not that they cannot be fired, but the effects wouldn't be pretty. You'd basicly shoot yourself.

Yes, Torpedo's are warp capable vessels. They don't normally go to warp because of the interference of the warp engines on the torpedo's sensors and the difficulty such a small object has manuvering at warp. They can be fired while the ship is at warp at an object being pursued or pursuing the ship. They can also be fired and go into warp for long distance recon and engagements, though generally they come out of warp for impact (unless it is a running firefight)

**Kittamaru** · 06-12-07, 12:50 PM

gungan shields seem to be the exception to the rule in Star Wars: If Phasers proved useless against them, they would simply set off, say, a meterion cascade or perhaps use a tachyon pulse to disrupt it's coherence. The only real special thing about Gungan shields is that they show the ability to block physical mass as well as energy blasts (also they reflect sunlight off the shield itself)

Don't forget, there are more than just Phasers and Torpedos. Disruptors are a VERY powerful weapon that expands and compresses the impacted material millions of times a second. That would cause severe stress fractures and ruptures in the hull of any Star Wars ship thanks to their apparent lack of a true structural integrity field- they have and mention inertial dampners, but not a SIF.

**Enterprise-D** · 06-12-07, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by TW Scott

Okay, actually ISD aim is pretty damn good in the movies. They can hit a 16meter long object zig zagging around at .25 light, they can certainly hit a 200 meter + object doing the same. Also the Picard Maneuver works becuase ST stupidly puts all weapons under central computer. Try a Picard maneuver on an ISD and at best thrity of the laser will be fired at the wrong immage but followed 3 seconds later by all firing on the right one.

As for Quantum and Tr-Cobalt torpedoes, neither of them is anywere near 12.5 gigatons, especially since a photon torpedo is just 25 tons.

TW, you are as stubborn as they come. Your favoured onscreen canon shows that a fleet of tiny spacecraft are very successful at dodging capital ship fire. They may destroy a few, but most of them survive. Hell an 8 year old boy piloting a - what - 5 meter (?) shuttle was able to destroy a ship measuring a couple kilometers wide. Clearly then, the targeting strategy of many of the more powerful Wars ships is half-hearted at best, possibly even dependant on sheer luck.

I was going into a long tirade of canon I've shared with the other trekkies on this thread, but see, I got fed up of this argument somewhere around page 120 I think, I can't remember. Mostly because you constantly find ways to limit anyone that doesn't agree with you. Your strategy is easy because LucasArts facilitates any marketable, sciency-sounding flim-flam to be pseudo-canon.

At any rate, I'm not directing any arguments at you. Most of the knowledge I've gathered I'm passing on anyways, you'll find it will become more difficult to prove your case.

**Kittamaru** · 06-12-07, 02:31 PM

Prove, he doesn't prove anything mate, he just shouts really loud until he gets his way.

I think he needs a time out... hence why I say we should just ignore him.

**~~Saquist~~** · 06-12-07, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by TW Scott

Okay, actually ISD aim is pretty damn good in the movies. They can hit a 16meter long object zig zagging around at .25

After a 8 dozen tries 1 direct, hit...Well yeah that's sharp shooting isn't it?

Also the Picard Maneuver works becuase ST stupidly puts all weapons under central computer. Try a Picard maneuver on an ISD and at best thrity of the laser will be fired at the wrong immage but followed 3 seconds later by all firing on the right one.

Bull...Picard Maneuver worked because the ship had only light speed sensors. That's exactly what ISD's have is light speed sensors. The lose objects and they can't track through hyperspace.

Inferior.

As for Quantum and Tr-Cobalt torpedoes, neither of them is anywere near 12.5 gigatons, especially since a photon torpedo is just 25 tons.

Tri Cobalt Device output is over 2000 Terrawatts of power.

Not to overload you, but an effective argument would be this:

1 Cochrane = the power required per unit Warp level.

Assume for argument's sake 1 Cochrane = 1 Watt (which CLEARLY it can't be for FTL travel, but let's just say).

Each tricobalt torpedo Tuvok fired at the Caretaker's Array was 2000 Teracochranes. In the case of our assumption above, the torpedoes were each carrying a potential payload of 2000 Terawatts. Or 2 Million Gigawatts.

And obviously, since we know our assumption must be in excess of 1 Cochrane = 1 Watt (or else humanity should plausibly have already achieved FTL), the Federation is capable of manufacturing weaponry of a capability in excess of 2 million gigawatts.

(Heck we don't even need to go that far, just look at the size of the array on Kittmaru's map compared to Voyager. And Voyager vaporised it with 2 stinking torpedoes )

It's obvioius you're a blittering fool, TWNUTJOB

**~~Saquist~~** · 06-12-07, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by Enterprise-D

TW, you are as stubborn as they come. Your favoured onscreen canon shows that a fleet of tiny spacecraft are very successful at dodging capital ship fire. They may destroy a few, but most of them survive. Hell an 8 year old boy piloting a - what - 5 meter (?) shuttle was able to destroy a ship measuring a couple kilometers wide. Clearly then, the targeting strategy of many of the more powerful Wars ships is half-hearted at best, possibly even dependant on sheer luck.

Very Logical, Enterprise-D.
In the Bridge Commander Game simulations Star Wars fans vastly overestimated the accuracy of the turbo laser so that shots hit fighter 5 times out of an average ten...

When pitted up against Federation star ships that traveled even faster than those fighters and the common Correlian cuiser they struck every time. It was wrong by Star Wars definitions...just as TW is wrong now.

At any rate, I'm not directing any arguments at you. Most of the knowledge I've gathered I'm passing on anyways, you'll find it will become more difficult to prove your case.[/QUOTE]

Aye, he's hopelessly lost to chasing the wind. Even the Lucas Film license of canon give us restrictions from which TW refuses to abide by. he has no rules of engagement, no standards to truth, or dedication to facts.

That's why he's surrendered to discontinue discourse for me. He could not counter a logical arguement so ignores them.

**Kittamaru** · 06-12-07, 06:56 PM

So, discounting Scott, do we have any further arguments from the Wars side?

**TW Scott** · 06-12-07, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by Enterprise-D

TW, you are as stubborn as they come. Your favoured onscreen canon shows that a fleet of tiny spacecraft are very successful at dodging capital ship fire. They may destroy a few, but most of them survive. Hell an 8 year old boy piloting a - what - 5 meter (?) shuttle was able to destroy a ship measuring a couple kilometers wide. Clearly then, the targeting strategy of many of the more powerful Wars ships is half-hearted at best, possibly even dependant on sheer luck.

Actually small problem while a ST ships is more maneuverable than her SW counterpart she is still a 200+ meter long vessel or a minimum of 10 times the length of a Y-wing and fifty times as tall and at least 20 times as wide. Your argument is aking to say that a person who has a hard time hitting a humming bird in flight is going to have the same difficulting hitting an Elphant that flies as the same speeds as a hummingbird.

Trust me the elephant is going to get hit, often

**Kittamaru** · 06-12-07, 10:14 PM

What we're saying is that someone who has trouble hitting a sparrow missile with a pistol is going to have trouble hitting an SR71 blackbird with the same pistol.

Trust me- either way they'll miss.

**Lord Vasago** · 06-13-07, 02:27 AM

Originally Posted by Kittamaru

Vasago, Blaster's aren't lasers. They have a physical mass as seen when they impact- they impart a kinetic energy. Thus they can not be a light speed weapon as they would cease to be the moment they hit lightspeed. They might go .75 or .9 the speed of light, but they cannot go 100% light speed
Yes i know they can't go lightspeed, i thought (to put it very simplistic)were some kind of supercharged, superheated bullet.
I meant that lazer aren't lazers eighter.

In Warp you move, but the universe moves as well. You move through "warp space" while you warp the rest of space around you. I know you travel trough the warpspace but how fast do you actually go?

PHASERS aren't in a different dimension per say, I should have worded that better. PHASER stands for PHASed Energy Rectification. It's sort of like the Polaron beam of the Dominion- at the right frequency, it can pass through the shield harmonics of a ship.

Phasers CAN be used in warp, but they would most likely impact the ship. It's not that they cannot be fired, but the effects wouldn't be pretty. You'd basicly shoot yourself.

Yes, Torpedo's are warp capable vessels. They don't normally go to warp because of the interference of the warp engines on the torpedo's sensors and the difficulty such a small object has manuvering at warp. They can be fired while the ship is at warp at an object being pursued or pursuing the ship. They can also be fired and go into warp for long distance recon and engagements, though generally they come out of warp for impact (unless it is a running firefight)

I see, thats very interesting. I'm just still a bit puzzled on how a torpedo can leave a ships warpbubble. I'm guessing that a ship like voyager has a lot of space to compress ? I mean.... is this like, the bigger the ship the more space you have to compress ? or does that not aply in space ?
If so than the torpede will be crused when it leaves the bubble because i don't see how a small can withstand that much presure.
And how can a small torpedo, that's in persude compress space that's being expanded by a large ship

I can't see no other explanation then that compressing space is not equal to the mass of a ship. Is this a wright conclusion.
and if not it's a good example of ST technologie.

Just kidding

**Lord Vasago** · 06-13-07, 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by Kittamaru

gungan shields seem to be the exception to the rule in Star Wars: If Phasers proved useless against them, they would simply set off, say, a meterion cascade or perhaps use a tachyon pulse to disrupt it's coherence. The only real special thing about Gungan shields is that they show the ability to block physical mass as well as energy blasts (also they reflect sunlight off the shield itself)
.

Oh boy, scott's gona hate for this but are u sure gungan shield can block physical mass ? aren't the droids just walking trough the shield?

**TW Scott** · 06-13-07, 02:35 AM

Originally Posted by Saquist

After a 8 dozen tries 1 direct, hit...Well yeah that's sharp shooting isn't it?

In ROTJ the fighter that was following the A wing was blasted to dust in less than a twelve shots. Now go ask a AA gunner how hard it is to hit a fast aircraft at point blank range at a 90 degree angle.

Bull...Picard Maneuver worked because the ship had only light speed sensors. That's exactly what ISD's have is light speed sensors. The lose objects and they can't track through hyperspace.

ISD do have FTL sensors, they only sense out to a few light years (mere fractions of a second at hyperspace speeds)

However the Picard Maneuver works against ST vessels for precisly the reason I explained. ST stupidly abandoned the idea of gunnery crews.

Tri Cobalt Device output is over 2000 Terrawatts of power.

Proof? None.

**TW Scott** · 06-13-07, 02:46 AM

Originally Posted by Lord Vasago

Oh boy, scott's gona hate for this but are u sure gungan shield can block physical mass ? aren't the droids just walking trough the shield?

Not going to hate you all, you bring up an excellent point. You will not that only the slowl moving a smaller battle droids were able to penetrated the shield. Despite the droids being able to pass through, the tanks could not penetrate the barrier. This would seem to denote that the barrier was designed to stop only high energy penetrators. Anything fast moving or large would be stopped.

**TW Scott** · 06-13-07, 02:50 AM

By the way, I want to point out something. No particle is massless. They maybe be effectively massless, but that is not the same thing. Photons, Electrons, Tachyons, and so on actually do have a mass, but it is usually so minute (even at the speed of light) that it is effectively zero in normal conditions. In not so normal conditions they can very easily have mass, though again it is not going to be much.

**Lord Vasago** · 06-13-07, 03:02 AM

Originally Posted by TW Scott

By the way, I want to point out something. No particle is massless. They maybe be effectively massless, but that is not the same thing. Photons, Electrons, Tachyons, and so on actually do have a mass, but it is usually so minute (even at the speed of light) that it is effectively zero in normal conditions. In not so normal conditions they can very easily have mass, though again it is not going to be much.

doesn't our sun launch billions of tons of photons every second? of is this something else ? if they are calculated in ton they have mass don't they?

**Lord Vasago** · 06-13-07, 03:07 AM

Originally Posted by TW Scott

Not going to hate you all, you bring up an excellent point. You will not that only the slowl moving a smaller battle droids were able to penetrated the shield. Despite the droids being able to pass through, the tanks could not penetrate the barrier. This would seem to denote that the barrier was designed to stop only high energy penetrators. Anything fast moving or large would be stopped.

I'm writing a sci-fi book for kids you see. that's why i keep questioning everything like the warp and shields and stuff. I want to use things that eventually can be invented, not just tumbsucking.
When you know our sun can produce more power in a second than a billion nuclearpowerplants in a year. How the hell do you manage to control the powercore of a deathstar?

**Enterprise-D** · 06-13-07, 10:38 AM

Vasago: Torpedos in ST have (pared-down) warp engines. They are capable of sustaining their own warp field. The ship does not assist the torpedo to its target. This has been stated by characters in multiple episodes of various series, inclusive of Kirk, Data, LaForge, Dax (I remember these characters mentioning torpedoes and their own warp engines or warp fields, however I can't reference the exact episodes at the moment).