Star Wars vs Star Trek

**OpteronGuy** · 02-09-05, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by Dru DP

What about training and competency? I don't know about Dune, but I can say that a member of starfleet, or even most other races seem infinitely more trained and competent than your average Star Wars person. Star Trek seems to show more resourcefulness and strategy during combat engagements. Now clone troopers are pretty intelligent and resourceful, but droid aren't resourceful, and besides Jedi, everyone else seems like a moron. The people in Star Trek, especially the federation, are brilliant when it comes to fixing things and turning a bad situation into a good one.

Ability and training in the Dune universe far surpass anything that the either two have. Between the BG, HM, Sarduakar, Swordsmen of Ginaz, Fish Speakers, etc. On top of that throw in the fact that later down the line the people of Dune are all genetically altered to perfection plus all the training they go through there is no way any of the other two's ground troops could handle Dune. Oh snap! I almost forgot the Fremen. The Sardaukar couldn't even handle the Fremen. Fedaykin, death commandos from hell I tell you!

There are also alot of races in star trek that show more technology, intelligence, and ability than in Star Wars. I honestly do not see how the Star Wars universe could defeat a relentless assault by the combined might of Species 8472, The Borg, The Dominion, and the Hirogen. Those are I think the four most powerful villian races in Star Trek and all four of them have their own strengths. Species 8472 being the most powerful and deadly. The Borg are relentless and adaptable to nearly anything, The Dominion is enormous in size and resources - it controls the entire gamma quadrant, where the Federation shares the alpha quadrant with a ton of other species, and the Hirogen are like Klingons x10. That's not even counting the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Breen, Kazon, and The Voth (who have ships that are miles long). All these species have entire fleets of ships. And then there are other species and beings who don't even need ships like the Cytherians, the Prophets, the Traveler, etc...

The same can be said for Dune. The Ixians, Richese (sp?), Tleilaxu, all very technological, Ixians being the most talked about in the books. There are countless speices that aren't gone into depth in the books but are mentioned throughout the series. The Scattering was a time when exploration out into the universe began after Leto II death. From this came many unknown and powerful technologies, some of which are mentioned in the 5th book.

Fleet sizes were countless in the Dune series. Highliners were like huge cargo ships for every other ship in the universe. And who knows, they could have been fitted with weapons had the need arose.

Starfleet has section 31, which are a ruthless autonomous and non-sactioned group. They attempted genocide on the Founders and have no moral qualms whatsoever about doing anything that is necessary to protect the federation.

Fedaykin, BG (when needed), HM (all the time), Sardaukar all death commandos that would do whatever was required of them to accomplish their mission.

And why is everyone pitting Picard against people from other shows? He's like one of the worst fighters in Star Trek. Try Odo, DS9 Worf, Data, or even Sisko or someone. Picard was a diplomat and operational captain, not a fighter.

I think we do it because it's fun. Worf vs Any Fremen/HM/BG/Sardaukar/Fish Speaker would give him his ass. Data, same again. Sisko, ditto. Odo would be a good fight against any one of them, however I think Paul or Leto II before he turned into the worm would handle him pretty well.

Lastly, if you want to start including everything throughout Dune, throw in the Machines. Who could defeat something that works in perfect harmony towards one goal?

**OpteronGuy** · 02-09-05, 07:25 PM

Oh yeah Dru, good post. Been a while since someone threw up some facts to debate with

**Asguard** · 02-09-05, 10:10 PM

OpteronGuy:

Still a death star before the end of the first book in dune and its goodbye to all the rest of it. No spice means no fremen, no navicators, no witches no nothing. The same cant be said for the other 2

As for star trek the jedi\clones and sith could easierly kick there ass

**Kron** · 02-10-05, 04:54 AM

Dear Asguard,
I believe that we (The guys who are debating for Dune) pointed out that the Tleilaxu managed to mass-produce artificial spice. Also everyone knows that no-one can lose against Star-Trek when it comes to melee combat. The question is who will win in an all-out melee between Star-Wars and Dune?

**OpteronGuy** · 02-10-05, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by Asguard

OpteronGuy:

Still a death star before the end of the first book in dune and its goodbye to all the rest of it. No spice means no fremen, no navicators, no witches no nothing. The same cant be said for the other 2

As for star trek the jedi\clones and sith could easierly kick there ass

They could do that, however in the prequil books spice is also artificially re-created but destroyed for political reasons. So even if they did destroy Arrakis before the end of the first book they would still have spice.

**Kron** · 02-10-05, 10:23 PM

I don't like to argue against my own cause Opteron, but the Amal project went down in flames near the end as it turned poisonous after heavy consumption.

**Asguard** · 02-10-05, 10:27 PM

so we are back to simple timing, if starwars hits at the right time then game over, if not they probably lose

**OpteronGuy** · 02-11-05, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by Kron

I don't like to argue against my own cause Opteron, but the Amal project went down in flames near the end as it turned poisonous after heavy consumption.

Yeah after going back and going through the prequel books I saw that. It's been a while since I have read those.

Originally Posted by Asguard

so we are back to simple timing, if starwars hits at the right time then game over, if not they probably lose

Again, not really. Since Arrakis would be heavily defended and we won't mention the spice hoards that most of the houses kept, then alls they would have to do is have one heighliner run a suicide mission. He could foldspace into the Death Star and it would be the end of the death start. It wouldn't be a pretty way of doing it, or the most efficient but it would cause them to lost the Death Star quickly. Hell if the Dune guys wanted they could strike the Death Star well before it got near Arrakis.

Also, who is to say that the people of SW wouldn't benefit from spice? Some of them are human too.

**suzukisfrog** · 02-12-05, 02:13 PM

i wanna see spock vs yoda. the only even mildly interesting characters in either universe.

**Kron** · 02-13-05, 06:00 AM

Great idea Opteron! I never thought of suicide-foldspace-destruction. This tips the already tipped scales in the favor of Dune.

**OpteronGuy** · 02-13-05, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by Kron

Great idea Opteron! I never thought of suicide-foldspace-destruction. This tips the already tipped scales in the favor of Dune.

And the thing is, it's not out of the realm of possibility. We all know how much the Guild relied on spice and how they would to go -ANY- length to make sure that the spice flowed. Heck, they wouldn't even have to use a Heighliner, they could use a smaller no-ship. Alls they have to do is get to the core. Heh, Bye bye Death Star.

**OpteronGuy** · 02-13-05, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by suzukisfrog

i wanna see spock vs yoda. the only even mildly interesting characters in either universe.

If the battle were just between those two, I would have to give it to Yoda. Spock wouldn't be able to keep up with the little green ball of fury.

**Asguard** · 02-13-05, 05:16 PM

"you have much to learn"

**Starthane Xyzth** · 02-14-05, 12:56 AM

Not Spock! The real Vulcan master - full blood, expert in martial arts from numerous worlds, tactical/security by profession - is Tuvok. If he wanted, he could use Yoda as a toilet brush.

**~~Jolly Rodger~~** · 02-14-05, 01:36 AM

Starwars is better because there is more people i would root in it, like chubacker , rather than spock or seven of nine
Go sexy chubacker

**Grummsh** · 02-14-05, 08:06 AM

Hmmm, I don't think Star Trek is as disiplined as you guys are making them out to be. In fact I think they're rather well known for taking outrageous risks. This is more or less a typical Star Trek conversation (insert your typical episode wherever appropriate):

Commander: Well, we could probably push the engines a little more, but there's a good chance we'll blow ourselves up.
Captain: Well, push the engines!

So I don't think stating Star Trek's discipline as a valid reason for winning this debate is, well, valid.

Also, as far as the butterfly effect argument, I'm pretty certain Starfleet would take that chance if they were desperate enough. Any of you remember that episode in TNG when all these alternate Enterprise's were filling up the galaxy? Remember there was one ship that opened up on Worf's shuttle because in their universe the Borg had totally taken over and they didn't want to go back?

There's your Starfleet discipline...

**~~Roman~~** · 02-14-05, 03:37 PM

Well, if Star Trek went back in time to prevent the Dune Universe from becoming powerful, the Dune universe would not become powerful, Star Trek would not go back in time and the Dune Universe would become powerful.

In this case you fracture reality into a multiverse, and accidently run into that guy from Farscape....

Let's leave time travel out.

I think the Star Wars universe is bigger than the Dune universe, since the Star Wars universe has found alien races while the Dunites have not. In terms of sheer numbers, Star Wars, I think, has outstripped everyone.

I can't remember the word, but a Russian came up with a measure of hypothetical civilizations in three classes. Type I could draw all the energy of a planet (or maybe star?) Type two could draw all the energy of a system, and type three all the energy of a galaxy.

Dune can draw the power of individual stars (there was a hint in Chapterhouse Dune that a star was harnessed for power to make a no-planet), Star Trek can draw the power of systems, and Star Wars the power of entire galaxies.

Or something.

**OpteronGuy** · 02-14-05, 07:23 PM

Looks like Roman is playing devils advocate on me!

**Starthane Xyzth** · 02-15-05, 03:44 AM

Originally Posted by Grummsh

Commander: Well, we could probably push the engines a little more, but there's a good chance we'll blow ourselves up.
Captain: Well, push the engines!...

Star Wars was much the same in that respect. Han Solo & Chewbacca (that's how you spell it, Jolly Roger!) are far less disciplined than anyone in Star Trek - and even the Imperials bicker among themselves. Remember Admiral Ozzel? Not to mention that vader was summarily executing his officers, including Ozzel, for minor judgemental errors... that's hardly conducive to a good working environment!

Any of you remember that episode in TNG when all these alternate Enterprise's were filling up the galaxy? Remember there was one ship that opened up on Worf's shuttle because in their universe the Borg had totally taken over and they didn't want to go back?

Yes, the episode was called "Parallels" - fascinating concept, but the multiple-Enterprise bonanza was squandered as a quick coda. It could have made up the entire episode, and featured many more varients than we saw.

Wouldn't you be desperate and unhinged if the Borg had destroyed your whole civilisation?

**Grummsh** · 02-15-05, 05:25 PM

Roman: If that paradox actually existed in Star Trek, there would not be any time travel episodes. Since time travel does exist for them insomuch as they can go back in time, fix something, and remember doing it when they return, I think it still remains a valid argument. As for the guy from Farscape, you got me there. I'm not familiar with the series, looks like I need to do some reading (or is it watching?)

I'm also very glad you mentioned alternate realities. Since Star Trek has knowledge of them, and Star Wars and Dune do not, they have an infinite number of allies they can recruit in order to wipe everything out.

Starthane: is having your civilization destroyed by Dune less motivation for unhinged desperation than having it destroyed by the Borg?