View Poll Results: Which universe would win?

Voters
670. This poll is closed
  • Star Trek

    227 33.88%
  • Star Wars

    285 42.54%
  • Spaceballs

    51 7.61%
  • Farscape

    14 2.09%
  • Dune

    54 8.06%
  • Stargate

    39 5.82%

Thread: Star Wars vs Star Trek

  1. #4481
    Minister of Technology
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oli View Post
    Really? Free electron lasers are the best in atmosphere and they lose approx 1/3 power per mile. I'll dig out the German research papers this weekend and scan them.
    Bullshitting? Hardly dickhead - it's my business.
    Initial power doesn't affect power loss...
    Dig them out, scan them, and then we'll know who is bullshitting

    BTW you might save your effort and look here

  2. #4482
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    Quote Originally Posted by USS Enterprise-B View Post
    Remember again, pretty any measurment in power done by SW is considered non-canon. And why do they call them lasers if they're not really lasers. (And Phasers are faster than bolts)
    Any measurement dericved by observation of the film and application of what we know of chemistry, physics and science in geeral is most assuredly canon.

    By the way why do they call them phaser rifles when they aren't rifles? (Rifle actually being any firearm with rifling in the barrel.) Why do cars have style names? Why is there crest, colgate, and sensodyne, isn't it all just toothpaste?

  3. #4483
    Very Special Senior Member USS Athens's Avatar
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    Not so fast TW Scott, don't make it look like he's making it all up. I have heard of this too, from someone who is very big into german engineering. Your physics are way off, from testimony of every one.

  4. #4484
    Very Special Senior Member USS Athens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Any measurement dericved by observation of the film and application of what we know of chemistry, physics and science in geeral is most assuredly canon.

    By the way why do they call them phaser rifles when they aren't rifles? (Rifle actually being any firearm with rifling in the barrel.) Why do cars have style names? Why is there crest, colgate, and sensodyne, isn't it all just toothpaste?
    Phaser Rifle is a nickname given to the phaser (meaning it resembles a rifle), it is actually called a type-III phaser.
    Last edited by USS Athens; 05-31-07 at 09:19 PM.

  5. #4485
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    Quote Originally Posted by USS Enterprise-B View Post
    I've said it once and I'll say it again, any estimate of power measurments is and should be considered NON-CANON!
    Dude, you can't play that game, especially since the ICS is considered part of canon canon in Star Wars

  6. #4486
    Very Special Senior Member USS Athens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Any measurement dericved by observation of the film and application of what we know of chemistry, physics and science in geeral is most assuredly canon.
    And where do these numbers and designations come from? 12.5 gigaton turbolaser? Hmmmmmmmm? Occording to physics? Most of your physics have been either justified or proven insane.
    Last edited by USS Athens; 05-31-07 at 09:19 PM.

  7. #4487
    Very Special Senior Member USS Athens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Dude, you can't play that game, especially since the ICS is considered part of canon canon in Star Wars
    ICS?

  8. #4488
    Very Special Senior Member USS Athens's Avatar
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    Don't make me say this, like all the ST fans on the thread before me, SW canon should only be from the films.

  9. #4489
    Very Special Senior Member USS Athens's Avatar
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    Lucas was on when he devised the canon system just because there were only a few movies.

  10. #4490
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    Quote Originally Posted by USS Enterprise-B View Post
    Not so fast TW Scott, don't make it look like he's making it all up. I have heard of this too, from someone who is very big into german engineering. Your physics are way off, from testimony of every one.
    Seriously his use of the term mile is a dead give away. However it hardly matters to the discussion. Obviously SW has overcome this obstacle, hell for all we know the weapon could be partially plasma based, which given it's effect is more likely. Name means nothing, effect is everything.

  11. #4491
    Very Special Senior Member USS Athens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Seriously his use of the term mile is a dead give away. However it hardly matters to the discussion. Obviously SW has overcome this obstacle, hell for all we know the weapon could be partially plasma based, which given it's effect is more likely. Name means nothing, effect is everything.
    WE'VE ALREADY JUSTIFIED THAT A TURBOLASER ISN'T A LASER!!!

  12. #4492
    Heute der Enteteich... Oli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Dig them out, scan them, and then we'll know who is bullshitting

    BTW you might save your effort and look here
    Thanks, I have bookmarked the page. The four papers I read talk about cryo plant use, not weapons-grade lasers which was the subject of the one I have. And none give values (that I saw) for power loss while penetrating atmosphere.

  13. #4493
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    Quote Originally Posted by USS Enterprise-B View Post
    Don't make me say this, like all the ST fans on the thread before me, SW canon should only be from the films.
    Then why say it when you're wrong. I am an ST fan myself. Love the shows up until Enterprise totally walked in the face of Gene's vision. However facts are facts. Gene himself said very sucinctly ONLY the shows and movies are canon. Lucas has made comments that indicate that everything that SW EU is canon, however if he makes a movie what he decides supercedes EU in importance. He was also clear he did not think Videogames, several novels, and some comics lines should be canon at all.

    In the light of these things everyone else's opinion means exactly nothing. So just drop your argument there, it is just pathetic to resort to this bullshit.

  14. #4494
    Heute der Enteteich... Oli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Seriously his use of the term mile is a dead give away.
    Use of the term "mile"? How sinister of me
    I use miles for distance. I convert figures for my own use... mea culpa.

  15. #4495
    Very Special Senior Member USS Athens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Then why say it when you're wrong. I am an ST fan myself. Love the shows up until Enterprise totally walked in the face of Gene's vision. However facts are facts. Gene himself said very sucinctly ONLY the shows and movies are canon. Lucas has made comments that indicate that everything that SW EU is canon, however if he makes a movie what he decides supercedes EU in importance. He was also clear he did not think Videogames, several novels, and some comics lines should be canon at all.

    In the light of these things everyone else's opinion means exactly nothing. So just drop your argument there, it is just pathetic to resort to this bullshit.
    I just don't see how much damage a 12.5 gigaton would do to a starfleet shield? (How many gigawatts does a starfleet shield run on?)

  16. #4496
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    Okay lets look at it objectively. We know from The Survivors(TNG) that a 400 gigawatt blast complete decimated the shields of a Galaxy class Starship. To be generous we will give them a 500% increase in ability.

    Now, for simplicity sake we will just say that it takes a blast on 2,000 gigawatt seconds to produce a similar scrambling of the shields on a GCS and Defiant. Smaller vessels are 1,200 to 1,600 and Sovereign is 4,000. Now this is very generous as it is five times the canon ST amount.

    We will call this the Single Beam Break Point or (SBBP). The amount of energy need supplied to 100 square centimeters to smash through the shields. Other hits of lesser variety can weaken the shields and even more powerful hits that is spread over a much larger area and still be fine.

    This follows what we know of ST shields, they can take a pounding that is spread over and area of shields. They can take impacts, pr0vided it strikes a large area of shield, however a concentrated high energy assault completely blows them off line.

    Okay, is everybody with me so far?

    Sovereign, Prometheus, special concept ships 4,000,000,000,000 watt second SBBP
    Galaxy, Amabassador, Defiant 2,000,000,000,000 watt second SBBP
    Smaller Ships 1,600,000,000,000 watt second SBBP

    This is the number of Watts it would take per 100cm^2 to fully blow the shields offline.


    Okay in ESB an ISD was using Weapons to clean out an asteroid field. Now if we only go by movie, appearance and what we know of asteroids, these were mostly Nickel Iron granite asteroids. We do know they had to be destroying 100+ meter radius rocks. But for arguments sake we will limit it to 4 times the length of the Falcon or a total of a 100 meter diameter or 50 meter radius

    50^3*4/3*pi = 523,598.77 cubic meters

    Density of iron is 7,874kg per cubic meter
    Density of Nickel is 8,908 kg per cubic meter
    Density of granit is 2,750 kg per cubic meter

    Assuming a composition of 60% granite, 20% Iron, 20% nickel we would have

    863,937,979.74 kg of granite
    824,563,351.81 kg of iron
    932,843,578.61 kg of nickel

    2,621,344,910.16 kilograms total

    Granite has a specific heat of 294 joules per kilo and 0 pressure vaporization temp of 1,215 Celsius
    Iron has a specific heat of 444 joules per kilo and 0 pressure vaporization temp of 1,811 Celsius
    Nickel has a specific heat of 420 joules per kilo and 0 pressure vaporization temp of 1,728 Celsius

    From a starting tem of -200 Celsius we get the following joule requirements to heat to vapor.
    359,406,838,950,470.00 for granite
    736,239,423,819,485.00 for iron
    755,379,416,211,937.00 for nickel
    1,851,025,678,981,890.00 joules total

    Now this puts a 1/15th second blast of the turbnolaser seen in ESB at a minimum of 1,851,025,678,981,890.00 watt seconds

    Do we see the disparity yet?
    Last edited by TW Scott; 05-31-07 at 10:56 PM.

  17. #4497
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Classic Trekkie hollow argument from the Outrageous Okona. The Enterprise was facing a small ship from a culture that had just attained warp recently. The lasers in question were gigawat lasers at best.

    This argument has been used before, and dismissed by people afar more intelligent than you.

    There is NO POSSIBLE way a ship that generates 1.2E19(1.2 x 10 ^19 or 12 billion gigawats) per second is going to stop a bolt is 7.8E20 (780 billion gigawats) for 1/15th second. The shields alone would need to be at least6,500% efficent higher if you wanted to power anything else.

    Secondly we can see from cannon footage that the Bolts in question are not true lasers. First of all they travel slower than light, but no slower than Phasers. They are visible in space. They have a bit of a muzzle flash even in vacuum When they hit they cause blunt trauma as well as DET.

    Obviously the statement you used is correct ST canon, but does not fit the weapon. In better terms it is like an M1A1 armor, it will protect in completely from a lot of crap, but Drop a tactical nuke on it and kiss it goodbye.
    Scott, are you foolish? Green-wave lasers are visible in present day... idiot.

    And it'd be VERY boring on BOTH SIDES to have weapons move the speed of light- you'd NEVER see them being fired and thus the battles would be... well... stupid.

  18. #4498
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Meanining if we translated this to nuatical terms Galaxy, Defiant and Sovereign would be the equivalent to lightly armed research vessels. Against a whaler or smuggler they do very well. But the ISD is like a Battleship. It doesn't need maneuverability as it has vastly superior firepower. They are made for heavy and prolonged combat.
    Yet the mightiest battleship of WW2 from the Germans was brought down by...

    A BRITISH CRUISER!

    Yeah, size isn't everything.

  19. #4499
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    What makes you think the vessel would keeps it shiedls lowered when it detected your vessel 4 days out. Second you are assuming that 10 gigawats phasers and 25 tons torpedoes is going to do much damage to a nuetronium impregnated ship. Thirdly assume that they were jamming your scans so it appeared that they had their shields down, a common SW tactic. Fianlly you fail to realize that the ship would be sitting either in the middle or derectly beside the ship. Firing weapons into civillian populations centers is a no-no.
    Prove that they use Neutronium

  20. #4500
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oli View Post
    Who named turbolasers as turbolasers? The scriptwriters, who probably know as much real science as any other script writer. They wanted a "cool" name and that's it.
    "That which we call a rose..." etc.
    Star Trek script writers (TOS at least) did a LOT of research for their scenes and tried to make them as "possible" as they could while maintaining the scifi aspect.

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