Star Wars vs Star Trek

[TW Scott]

I don't know if this is true so TW Scott if you can prove that Lucas okayed then you prove that this book is canon. Just give them te proof and we can rest this thing.

The proof is in the book dedication and online. Not to mention that it was under the same contract as the novels. It's not like the comics or the computer games, the only items specifically excluded from canon by Lucas.

[Lord Vasago]

The proof is in the book dedication and online. Not to mention that it was under the same contract as the novels. It's not like the comics or the computer games, the only items specifically excluded from canon by Lucas.

So then the book is canon and and ISD gun's are as powerfull as you say.
If lucas is okay with it, it's canon. yeeeehaaa

btw i have a nice pic to attach but it doesn't seem to work. file is just 41kb and non sexual content. how do i post it? thx

[TW Scott]

Besides we do have back up. The Asteroid destruction scenes in ESB. Even on the low side (asteroids made of lead) the minimum power needed to vaporize the asteroid is 5.92885x10^13 watts or the equivalnet of 148.2212738 glaxy class starship shields. And that is bare minimum of bare minimum.

[FoolFromHell]

There is a episode in ST where there is a small vessel attached without them knowing it, dude the scoundred even borded. I don't know if it was to assasinate or sabotage though.

The Falcon hid on the garbage bay of the ISD...

Plus, SW sensors suck. They travel at light speed and cant do anything.
ST, on the other hand, can hit within 2 meters from over 30,000 KM away.
Warp 9.9 is ~ 21,000 C.
Thus, its 1.40829492 × 10^13 m/s.
Think about a 3km block of matter/ anti-matter hitting your ship at that speed...
Thats a LOT of force. You are NOT going to survive it... ST shields are clearly better than SW shields.
Plus, there is NO evidence that R2 lowered the power of the Naboo Fighter.
NONE AT ALL, meaning that the Fighter is weak, meaning every SW weapon is weak.
Plus, what are you going to do with Q? You havent answered that...

[Kittamaru]

Guys, just ignore scott. It has already been proven that he manufactures information to fit his needs.

[Saquist]

Okay, given the givens as listed above the Maxiumum Theoretical yeiedl of a Photon Torpedo is 64 megatons, assuming 1.5 kg Matter/ 1.5kg Antimatter warhead that seems to be standard. I'll be gnerous and assume it is this despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I've seen you botch these calculations before, But I'm going to stop you there. Federation torpedos have to be rated much higher than 64 megatons.

considering the Powerful effects of a 5,00,000 ISOTON warhead can destroy a starsystem and spread for 5 lightyears. You estimation is clearly below par.

Further a Gravitic warhead at a 50 ISTON yeild can blow a small planetoid. Obviously your estimates are exceeding low by design to punctuate and exagerate Star's ineffectual onscreen firepower.

Over a minute a GCS can produce
30 Photon Torpedoes at 64 megatons = 1,920 megatons= 1.92 gigatons
144 phaser Strike as 300 gigawatts = 10,324 tons of dynamite= 10.324 kilotons
These are the only weapons used by a GCS so the one minute total is 1,920,010.324 kilotons

That is using extrapolation form data from the shows.

The Next Generation never stated the fire power of either it's photon torpedos or it's phasers....You've lied again and made all this up. The Voyager epsidoes confirm this. No wonder the star wars camp despise the show so much. A lot of figures are coming out of just Voyager alone.

ISD carries 60 Turbolasers which are 70% as powerful as heavy Turbolasers so they produce 8.75 gigatons each.

The percentage is Uncanon and Impossible to prove.
The Fire power is uncanon and also impossible to prove

They also carry 60 heavy Ion cannons that produce the an effect of 5.2x 10^18 watts each or the equivalent of 1.25 gigatons if it was a blast. Each of these cannons can fire once every three seconds.

There is no proof that Ion canon are the output you've stated. This too is uncanon.

Well, yes I am saying that. SW has had 25,000 years as just the Old Republic they had thousands of years before that with FTL. Their technologies have been refined and refined again untill they are completely reliable and unbelievably impressive.

I think not If that were true.
Star Wars tracking would be much better, It's tactics and firepower which you state as being overwhelmingly awesome would have been displayed else where in the movies or even in the books. The figure you conjure can only be of your own creation or from the already proven , uncanon ICS books.

As for Capital ship shields and Fighters, Capital ship shields do not often extend more than a meter beyongd the hull. That is just over three feet. Only vessel to do that was the Death Star and since only fighters came out they just never raised the shields in ANH and when they realized the danger it was already too late they were withing the 200 meter ceiling.

Your reasoning makes no sense. As usual. Full battlstation and the Grand Moff leaves the shields down...Impressive.



[QUOTE=TW Scott;1394634]Actually no conflict. Artoo would simply have turned down the lasers to not vaporize the people in the hangarExcept he's never been known to do so. He's never been written to do so. This is the same woulda shoulda coulda you always prepare but it's not fit for consumption.

It's in his job description

The truth is he never has too. Theat's the real reason why the hanager seen displayed no kiloton or multimega ton fire power. And realize to that it's not the only scene where figthers fail to show multi megaton fire power.

The entire clone war on Geonosis. The flying ships are pathetic taken down by less than kiloton weaponry or equivilent firepower which doesn't bold well for Star War's much smaller fighters.

Artoo being hit directly by two laser bolts in A New Hope and suffering only a hole in his dome.

Empire Strikes Back: 1-The fighter bombers bombs are truely pathetic. 2- The Tie fighters weapons continually strike the asteroid surfaces and produce just a little light but no effectual explosion...We know now why the Falcon's shields last so long.

Plus it is obviously from other scenes that the hangar is shielded No one is saying the light laser cannons are gigatons, but those Proton Torpedoes certialy are. BTW fighter lasers are only megaton level weaponry.

AH....but you did say that before in your lie number 3! Remeber? You said the fighter brought down by "light laser cannons were gigaton."

I proved you wrong...

That was a TANK...not a light laser cannon.

Give him a BIG HAND folks! Isn't he WONDERFUL at stating "facts" he has no way of knowing are even true or not

Indeed...good eye Kittamaru.

Stop making shit up.

I've asked him before but he's a machine...he just doesn't stop. I've yet to find the switch.

There is NO evidence whatsover that the fighters "didnt raise their shields". They may not have had them at all...

In battle..your's right...A fighter immediately raises it's shields. We don't even know how much control a pilot has over that ...or even if it's automatic.

Idiot! I was referring to the Death Star.

Of course the fighters raised their shields in fact you can hear them several times referring to them during the battle.

But it would seem that you were the actual Idiot...You've no evidence that the shields were not up...

Infact the canon says otherwise. The briefing reveal that the the Deathstar would be using ray shielding....So this is the 7th lie you've told to prove your horribly cobbled together deffense.

[Saquist]

Hey, idiot, obviously you missed the whole Doomsday device thing. One Photon Toprpedo could not possibly be 200 megatons. Why? Becuase they figured it would take only 100 megatons to destroy the Doomsday device. If the Photon Torpedo was 200 megatons one would have done the job. As it was they had to self destruct a whole Constitution class starship to destroy the Doomsday device.

Hey Idiot....aka NUTTJOB...
The device was surrounded in nuetronium armor. The Idea was to get that charge down his gullet. not bounce it off the exterior. I'm amazed at how easy it is for you not to think when it comes to star trek...but you'll fabricate fantasical numbers to defend Star Wars...

The purpose was to get the doomsday device to swallow..to accept something that would produce the 100 megaton blast.

Third point given that we know that 400 gigwatts can drop the shield of a GCS and that twenty four vessels

This is actually something you've not yet proven. I know you'll continue to use the stat. But untill you can reason that it was not by the will of a supernatural creature or the composition of the beam that dropped the Enterprise shields your reliance on the number is precarious.

[Saquist]

Well this is what TW and the Warsies haven't understood yet, LucasArts can pull all the large figures out of the metaphorical hat; Trek has already established that the smaller ships can handle and probably dish out more than one would expect.

Enterprise D said this recently. And I have to agree. Trek fans don't need to fabricate numbers from the big screen. The writters have given us enough information on screen in tid-bits to understand that Federation starships have a vast amount of firepower and it's typical through out the MilkyWay.

Good post Enterprise..

[Admiral Lee]

My thoughts exactly Saquist about the doomsday machine. This Scott guy tries to exaggerate or leave out key details when his imagination fails him.

[Admiral Lee]

Sadly enough almost all of the arguments I have heard about star wars being better equipped in a fight was star wars fans comparing TOS and TNG ships to that of Star Wars. WoW, bout being behind the times! What about ships that the Federation actually intended to be battle ships instead of exploratory vessels? Prometheus class, Defiant Class, Sovereign Class, Dominion Wars enhanced classes, ect. You guys are comparing star wars war ships against star trek explorer vessels and still cant come up with a logical defense. Thats sad. P.S I used to be a star wars fan until i saw that star trek would totally own them. For crying out loud a lot of star wars ships have open systems with no armor or plating at all!!!! Owe, and about that star wars fleet wiping earth off the galactic map of the federation, doubtful, if Cardassia had all those automated defense platforms armed with plasma torpedoes then just imagine what the federation would have in sector 001. And you choose not to comment on what I said about Transphasic torpedoes, no come back? And what about Voyagers Endgame armor? It withstood tree cubes pounding it and the armor held at near full. How could star wars even hope to battle against a fleet of federation ships equipped with this kind of technology?

[Jodokast872]

If we are trying to base this fictitious war on anything in both universes. considering after Rodenberry’s death any techno babble writer could make up any situation and conclusion, star trek: enterprise time travel story lines.

Star Trek fans Google, Suncrusher, and Jedi powers.
You stick a powerful Sith (Darth Bane) in any ship, they can get through any federation blockade, etc. and just mind screw the federations admirals into submission. The Q would not do anything Q just care about themselves; to them we are small children. That and the federation even after including hundreds of species still just want to sit down and peace and love a situation to death.

Just watch star trek movies 1 and 4. come on people is this a discussion? star trek is white bread and star wars is a tortilla. star wars are galactic WARS, you don’t see han solo talking about how much he loves planets flowers. How far did it have to go before the federation decided to fight back against the borg. The Empire is the polar opposite of the federation, if you want ships designed for battle look at the executer class star destroyers.

If trekkies didn't know there was more then one super star destroyer.

[Saquist]

If we are trying to base this fictitious war on anything in both universes. considering after Rodenberry’s death any techno babble writer could make up any situation and conclusion, star trek: enterprise time travel story lines.

The ability to time travel is a great weapon yes.

Star Trek fans Google, Suncrusher

We've covered this..It no longer exist and the Galactic Alliance refused to buitd anymore doomsday weapons like the Death Star and the Center Point station.

, and Jedi powers.

As far as Jedi powers...they don't seem to make a massive impact in battle and Jedi that powerfull no longer exist. While you're at Bringing back Darth Bane we'll bring back the Vulcan thought amplifier and just have Laxwana Troi just kill the Jedi and Sith with a single thought.

The Q would not do anything Q just care about themselves;

WE've covered that end too. The Q do whatever they want...If it's withing there desire to they would step in and they have before creating Star Trek's Great Barrier and Galactic Barrier to protect the Milky Way from creatures that would destroy all life in the galaxy.

to them we are small children.

That and the federation even after including hundreds of species still just want to sit down and peace and love a situation to death.

Hmm...this is abit disturbing....Are you saying peace is wrong? You prefer a constant state of war and strife...if you haven't noticed...Star Wars' has existed for 100,000 years with war and strife and the advanced ment of the entire galaxy hasn't come close to equaling how quickly the Federation rose to power and devolped technological in just 300 years.


If trekkies didn't know there was more then one super star destroyer.[/QUOTE]

Currently there is only One super star destroyer...named Guardian
The Lusankya was recently the last...destroyed by wedge to take out a Vong World ship.

All in all for as big and "powerful" they are they couldn't stand up liquid rock geysers and metal eating mutations....Pretty mighty...oh yea...

[jasonleslie]

grimlockprime
With all these millions of frigates/corvettes/escorts, the 100,000+ SD/SSD/ect....capital ships the Empire STILL LOST!?!?!? WTH is wrong with the mighty Empire if they can't squish EWOKS, one freaking smuggler with a furry co-pilot, two droids with serious homo tendancies, and a Jedi wannabe with a hitch for his sister? Must be complete and total idiots running the Empire. The clone vats need to be checked because evidently they are cloning retards.
Ok, let me put it this way. The Star Wars universe must not be as smart as the Trek universe. I guess the Empire thinks it can win a war by putting retards in the armed forces.
My lord, just because you have a loaded Apache Longbow doesn't mean you are going to win a battle with a paper bag if the crew of the Apache is a bunch of Jerry's kids! Get the concept here?
Lord Vader, unable to kill a smuggler in a freaking TRANSPORT. Come on, what is he Lord of, the bathroom? The Empire, unable to smash a tiny group of rebels with all these millions of ships and troops and "Force" b.s, and please, don't bring the Borg back into it. The Empire forces are idiots, if Ewoks and smugglers in transports can take them on and win how in the hell are they going to resist drones? I got 5 bucks that says the Spaceballs could wipe the floor with Star Wars. Yeah, I went there, SPACEBALLS.
May the Schwartz be with you.


It's ok Star Wars guys, I know it's been a long day, you are tired, go take nap. I'm sure you'll feel better after you get you some nap time. Don't forget your bottle and blankey...




Sorry I just read this one....thinka bout it stupid. Just because you have the best technology, and largest military does not mean your going to win. Considering the top Dog (the emporer) thought the rebellion nothing more than insignificant. Look at our own history, during the Revolutionary war, 13 colonies with a small untrained, undisciplined, ill equiped army, won against the British and the Largest Army in the World.

The rebellion won for several reasons against the empire, they where mobile, not stuck trying to defend every location for fear of being attacked. They used gurilla tacktics stricking from out of nowhere. While smaller numbers does not win the major battles all the time keeping your enemy on it's toes and not knowing when, where or with how much you will eventually cause them to be spread thin, and no Galaxy is small. They had nothing but their lives to lose, and every thing to win and were well motivated.

In the end it was just luck and over confidence on the Empires part that caused them to lose.

[Kittamaru]

So you are saying that:

A) Star Wars sensors cannot detect ships till they are in firing range
B) The large capital ships of the Imperial Navy were woefully inadequate against the FIGHTERS of the Rebelion
C) That a bunch of furry munchkins can crush Mech's with ease?

that and

A) The Americans won because they BROKE every law of combat of the time (line up and shoot)
B) The British wore Red Coats which made them damn easy targets
C) The Americans weren't AFRAID to use the "forbiddon" sniper rifle (it was thought dishonorable)
D) The British had to send troops over HUNDREDS of miles of ocean, and half of them got here sick!
E) Home turf advantage- the trees were our friends.

So yeah... American Revolution =/= Star Wars

[FoolFromHell]

Hey Idiot....aka NUTTJOB....

He has given me that title... you believe his nerve?

[TW Scott]

Sadly enough almost all of the arguments I have heard about star wars being better equipped in a fight was star wars fans comparing TOS and TNG ships to that of Star Wars. WoW, bout being behind the times! What about ships that the Federation actually intended to be battle ships instead of exploratory vessels? Prometheus class, Defiant Class, Sovereign Class, Dominion Wars enhanced classes, ect. You guys are comparing star wars war ships against star trek explorer vessels and still cant come up with a logical defense. Thats sad. P.S I used to be a star wars fan until i saw that star trek would totally own them. For crying out loud a lot of star wars ships have open systems with no armor or plating at all!!!! Owe, and about that star wars fleet wiping earth off the galactic map of the federation, doubtful, if Cardassia had all those automated defense platforms armed with plasma torpedoes then just imagine what the federation would have in sector 001. And you choose not to comment on what I said about Transphasic torpedoes, no come back? And what about Voyagers Endgame armor? It withstood tree cubes pounding it and the armor held at near full. How could star wars even hope to battle against a fleet of federation ships equipped with this kind of technology?

You'd have a [point if the Defiant was leaps and bounds ahead of a GCS, it isn't. It's got GCS shielding on a smaller hull and roughly 70% of the fire power of the GCS but only need a 1/40th the crew. Soveriegn is a 100% upgrade from the GCS, but still You would need thousands of them to match a single ISD.

[Kittamaru]

The Defiant IS leaps and bounds ahead of the Galaxy- up close and personal, the impact effects of the pulse phasers makes them more effective than standard beam phasers. It has been stated, IN SERIES, that a phaser does most of it's damage immediately following impact. That is why they do quick short bursts to probe for a weakness, then sustain the beam to overload that point on the shields. Pulse phasers suffer from shorter range, but they get increased damage and a faster rate of fire.

Also, the micro quantum torpedo tubes (it has 4) are far more powerful than the galaxy's photon tubes.

[Kittamaru]

That and the sovereign is a 500%+ boost in COMBAT effectiveness over the Galaxy due to the rapid fire quantum torpedo turret ALONE.

[TW Scott]

The Falcon hid on the garbage bay of the ISD...

Becuase Han, a former Imperial officer, knew the blind spot of the sensors system. The Falcon also has some pretty effect sensor masks. If Han wants to hide he can easily hide.

Plus, SW sensors suck. They travel at light speed and cant do anything.
On the other hand, can hit within 2 meters from over 30,000 KM away.
Warp 9.9 is ~ 21,000 C.
Thus, its 1.40829492 × 10^13 m/s.

Are you really trying to compare sensors and speed with SW? Come on, in SW, hyperdrive makes crossing the length of the galaxy a weekend road trip. Even the slowest of the drives, a x12, manages the feat in just 2 weeks. Voyager initial projection was 70 years to cross only a quarter of the galaxy. SW sesors could pick up a gravity signature from half way across the universe and ST regularly loses ships in magnetic poles.

I admit, ST has Tactical Speed advantage, but SW trumps that with their utter dominance of strategic speed. No matter how the war goes, SW will be able to pick every battlefield and strike before ST can react.

Think about a 3km block of matter/ anti-matter hitting your ship at that speed...
Thats a LOT of force. You are NOT going to survive it... ST shields are clearly better than SW shields.

Actually, given how Warp works that object could normally have a Mass of of trillions of tons, but if it travelling warp speed it is effectively Zero. since ke=m*v^2 and anything times zero is zero.... I'll leave you to swear appropiately.

A 1.5kg matter/1.5 kg anitmatter weapon will have a maximum yield of 64 megatons.

Plus, there is NO evidence that R2 lowered the power of the Naboo Fighter.
NONE AT ALL, meaning that the Fighter is weak, meaning every SW weapon is weak.

Okay, several times in novel R@ has piloted Lukes X-wing to save the day, and they aren't even designed for it. the Astromech's role is astronavigation, power management, repair, and safety. Seeing as how we see the other fighters use their weaponry for much greater effect than the low power shots we see in the hangar, it does not take a rocket scientist to puzzel out what happens.

Plus, what are you going to do with Q? You havent answered that...

Don't have to answer Q, while he might rescue Picard or Janeway, unlikely as he owed Data much more and did niot rescue him, like the Borg or the Dominion he will not lift a finger. And the rest of them won't do a damn thing either.

[TW Scott]

I've seen you botch these calculations before, But I'm going to stop you there. Federation torpedos have to be rated much higher than 64 megatons.

considering the Powerful effects of a 5,00,000 ISOTON warhead can destroy a starsystem and spread for 5 lightyears. You estimation is clearly below par.

Further a Gravitic warhead at a 50 ISTON yeild can blow a small planetoid. Obviously your estimates are exceeding low by design to punctuate and exagerate Star's ineffectual onscreen firepower.

First of all IF the 5,000,000 isoton mine could destroy a star system why didn't the borg just use it as a mean of destroying Species 8472? Huh? Why did they need Vayger to design the nanites? Why were the mines only thought of as a nanite delivery system?

Obviously the 5,000,000 isotons cannot destroy a starsystem. What it could do is spread the nanites through the starsystem indiscriminately. Everyone with a working understanding of reality understood that one.

The Next Generation never stated the fire power of either it's photon torpedos or it's phasers....You've lied again and made all this up. The Voyager epsidoes confirm this. No wonder the star wars camp despise the show so much. A lot of figures are coming out of just Voyager alone.

No, we don't despise Voyager, it give us some of our best ammo. As well as DS9. BTW we are reverse engineering weapon powers from descriptions. A photon torpedo holds 1.5 kg anitmatter thus if you do the math it is 64 megatons. Phasers have to be weaker than 400 gigwats becuase the shields are dropped if hit by a 400 gigawatt blast. It's simple basic logic.

There is no proof that Ion canon are the output you've stated. This too is uncanon.

Reverse engineered form sources held as canon.

I think not If that were true.
Star Wars tracking would be much better, It's tactics and firepower which you state as being overwhelmingly awesome would have been displayed else where in the movies or even in the books. The figure you conjure can only be of your own creation or from the already proven , uncanon ICS books.

The canonicity of the ICS books has been successfully proved and defended despite you libelous claims. This continual strawman defense of yours is getting tiresome

Your reasoning makes no sense. As usual. Full battlstation and the Grand Moff leaves the shields down...Impressive.

Why not, the fighter were of no threat as far as he cared and it gave his Turbolaser crews something to shoot at. In his mind he was about to crush the majority of the rebellion.

Except he's never been known to do so. He's never been written to do so. This is the same woulda shoulda coulda you always prepare but it's not fit for consumption.

Damn, you are under educated. That is an Astromech's function, dumbass. Hell Artoo has used Luke's X-wing to save the man before. So it is well within his capabilities to make sure the hangar does not get toasted, remember that is his home hangar.

The truth is he never has too. Theat's the real reason why the hanager seen displayed no kiloton or multimega ton fire power. And realize to that it's not the only scene where figthers fail to show multi megaton fire power.

See there is faulty reasoning on your part. His purpose is powermanagement, astronavigation, maintenancve and pilot safety. He has shown quite a bit of technical savvy and independance.

The entire clone war on Geonosis. The flying ships are pathetic taken down by less than kiloton weaponry or equivilent firepower which doesn't bold well for Star War's much smaller fighters.

How do you know those are less than kiloton level effects? You realize that a realease of energy can impart the same amount of power as a kiloton of TNT and still not have a blast radius. Since your argument is in opposition to canon, you will have to prove it.

Artoo being hit directly by two laser bolts in A New Hope and suffering only a hole in his dome.

Artoo was protected by the last shreds of the X-wings aft shields. Not to mention that they are made of Duramor themselves.

Empire Strikes Back: 1-The fighter bombers bombs are truely pathetic. 2- The Tie fighters weapons continually strike the asteroid surfaces and produce just a little light but no effectual explosion...We know now why the Falcon's shields last so long.

Okay, you are searching a large asteroid for a hidden ship. Your CO, a real mean asshole who like to choke people from a mile away, wants them found alive. Are you going to use full power bomblets or sounding charges? think on this for a damn moment.

AH....but you did say that before in your lie number 3! Remeber? You said the fighter brought down by "light laser cannons were gigaton." That was a TANK...not a light laser cannon.

A Tank, yes. A Tank that was considered heavy artillery. Niotice the size of the tank and the cannon in question. Also not that the guns of a F-14 are nothing compared to the guns of a M1A1. There is not a Pilot in the world who would think his Fighter could survive a hit from a Tank. So that you again for being a thundering moron.

In battle..your's right...A fighter immediately raises it's shields. We don't even know how much control a pilot has over that ...or even if it's automatic.

Actually the Astromech or Pilot raises shields. This is evident from more than one scene.

But it would seem that you were the actual Idiot...You've no evidence that the shields were not up...

The fact that the X-wings and Y-Wings were able to fly through, despite the fact that the Death Star uses plantery shield generators

Infact the canon says otherwise. The briefing reveal that the the Deathstar would be using ray shielding....So this is the 7th lie you've told to prove your horribly cobbled together deffense.

They said the target shaft was Ray shielded, dumbass. As you can see everything else wasn't. Ypou have just been cuaght in yet another lie. This one deliberate/