Star Wars vs Star Trek

**Kron** · 01-10-05, 09:58 AM

Hmmm...has anyone noticed where the Star Wars ranters have gone?

That bad-vibes weapon is actually a kinda stupid idea. If you could invent a weapon that tunes in to negative thoughts, what would stop it from blasting friendly ships? I mean c'mon if you're in a battle you HAVE to be angry at the enemy.

Could ANYONE explain the pulsar thing?

**~~Roman~~** · 01-10-05, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by Dru_DP

Finally, I've had this discussion a million times with people over the years, and I really do enjoy both Star Trek and Star Wars. Comparing the two in any way bothers me somewhat though because they really are very different creatures. They both have the word "Star" in the title and they are both science fiction genres set it space. The similarities end there. Star Wars is a sc-fi fantasy, with mythical warriors known as Jedi and Siths. The plot is the tried and true "good vs. evil." The allure is the mystical, almost spiritual quality of the force, and the exciting lightsaber fights, which resemble ancient warriors battling to the death. The space battles and galactic wars keep us entertained on a more human level.

Star Trek is more of a sci-fi action/drama. Where Star Wars keeps us enterained with a fantasy of mythical warriors, Star Trek does it more in a "What if" way. What if humans survive long enough to travel through space? This is what if. We create a vast federation, "encounter new life forms and new civilizations. We see how humans (us) interact with other intelligent life in the galaxy. While Star Wars appeals to our fantasy, Star Trek appeals to our humanistic ideals. Where Star Wars is mythical and quasi-spiritual , Star Trek is scientific and exploratory.

Well said, I totally agree. Comparing Star Trek and Star Wars is difficult, since both were created to explain different things, in different ways.
Star Trek and Dune are actually very similar, in terms of purpose and explanations. However, Dune lacks any aliens.

Technology-wise, Dune ships also have the ability to cloak, by entering another dimension called 'null-space.' While in null-space, they're pretty much undetectable. I think the no-ships have to leave null space to attack, though.

Actually, no-ships don't have to de-cloack, according to House Harknonnen (which wasn't written by Frank Herbert, so I consider it apocrypha). In House Harkonnen, the Harkonnens had an Ixian no-ship prototype that they attacked a bunch of planes with inside of a heighliner.

The bad-vibes weapon would be dangerous against anyone who couldn't control their emotions. I can see its uses against Sith or Klingons (imagine turning one of those on in the middle of a battle versus the Clone Troopers and all your Klingon allies go *poof*). The Jedi would probably be immune, as would the Bene Gessarit and Star Wars droids. I think it'd be most dangerous to those who haven't been extensively trained to control their emotions in battle (like Star Fleet, or the grunts that comprise any army, whether it be Trek, SW or Rakis).

**Asguard** · 01-11-05, 12:16 AM

star wars troops are DESIGNED not to have emotion. Think of storm troopers, trained to follow ANY orders with no fear or remorse. Think of the clone troops who were BREAD to have no emotions. then there are the droids of corse

**Kron** · 01-11-05, 06:57 AM

no-ships do NOT have de-cloak when firing their weapons. The point of no-ships is that they AREN'T THERE. It's not like they're just invisible, if you fire something at them it would go straight through.

AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, CAN ANYONE EXPLAIN THE PULSAR THING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

**Nasor** · 01-11-05, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by Kron

no-ships do NOT have de-cloak when firing their weapons. The point of no-ships is that they AREN'T THERE. It's not like they're just invisible, if you fire something at them it would go straight through.

I still don’t buy this. If it can see into the regular universe well enough to aim at enemies and avoid planets, then it must be interacting with the real universe in some manner. If it can see an enemy ship that means that light from the real universe can affect it, which means you should be able to carve it up with lasers.

**~~Roman~~** · 01-11-05, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by Nasor

If it can see an enemy ship that means that light from the real universe can affect it, which means you should be able to carve it up with lasers.

Not necessarily. Perhaps no-ships can sense matter by a gravitational warp in space/time, or decaying particles or something. It may be possible to find things in a null state, as long as you know what you're looking for. The Honored Matres were looking for a Reverend Mother hiding in a null capsule on some planets surface, but failed to detect her. The people inside the null capsule had the ability to observe what was going on outside.

Arguing against no-ships is as retarded as me telling you that lightsabers don't exist or that the Q couldn't have godlike powers.

**OpteronGuy** · 01-11-05, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by Kron

AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, CAN ANYONE EXPLAIN THE PULSAR THING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's an uBer secret technology... So uBer secret in fact, that even the ST guys have no idea what it is

**Nasor** · 01-11-05, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by Roman

Not necessarily. Perhaps no-ships can sense matter by a gravitational warp in space/time, or decaying particles or something. It may be possible to find things in a null state, as long as you know what you're looking for. The Honored Matres were looking for a Reverend Mother hiding in a null capsule on some planets surface, but failed to detect her. The people inside the null capsule had the ability to observe what was going on outside.

Arguing against no-ships is as retarded as me telling you that lightsabers don't exist or that the Q couldn't have godlike powers.

I’m not saying that they don’t exist, I’m just saying that there are major logical contradictions in the way they’re described. If they can be affected by light from the normal universe, then they should be vulnerable to laser fire. If they can be affected by gravity from the normal universe, then they should be vulnerable to immobilization by gravity-based tractor beams or the area-effect gravity generators that the Empire uses to trap fighters and pull ships out of hyperspace, or to a weapon that works by creating a brief black hole. If they can detect particles from the normal universe, then they could be targeted by particle cannons.

To say that a no-ship can’t be affected at all by a ship in the normal universe would necessitate it being completely blind, because if you can’t interact with the normal universe then you can’t see anything – and if you can interact, then it should be theoretically possible for an enemy to exploit whatever form of interaction you are vulnerable to.

**Dru DP** · 01-11-05, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by OpteronGuy

It's an uBer secret technology... So uBer secret in fact, that even the ST guys have no idea what it is

I think they are referring to a weapon that was in the game ST: Armada. I've never seen it in actual Star Trek canon, so I don't know if it should be used.

In the last episode of Voyager Janeway brings back technology from 25 years in the future - Armor plating shields and transphasic torpedos. If you've seen it you know what I am talking about and if you havn't, then you should. The armor plating works like that plating that goes around Batman's Batmobile in the first Batman movie when he says, "shields", only it's probably a bit more effective on voyager. Transphasic torpedos are torpoedos that pass through any shield system.

If you ask me the entire battle comes down to the strengths of each side:

Star Trek: Technology
Star Wars: The Force

When it comes to Dune I have no idea. Spaceballs has ludicrous speed though so there is really no contest.

**OpteronGuy** · 01-11-05, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by Dru DP

I think they are referring to a weapon that was in the game ST: Armada. I've never seen it in actual Star Trek canon, so I don't know if it should be used.

In the last episode of Voyager Janeway brings back technology from 25 years in the future - Armor plating shields and transphasic torpedos. If you've seen it you know what I am talking about and if you havn't, then you should. The armor plating works like that plating that goes around Batman's Batmobile in the first Batman movie when he says, "shields", only it's probably a bit more effective on voyager. Transphasic torpedos are torpoedos that pass through any shield system.

If you ask me the entire battle comes down to the strengths of each side:

Star Trek: Technology
Star Wars: The Force

When it comes to Dune I have no idea. Spaceballs has ludicrous speed though so there is really no contest.

I saw that episode and I miss the Voyager series, 7 of 9 was a hottie. I like ST and SW, however in a battle I think Dune would take both.

Dune is a mix of Technology and Prescience (sp?)

**~~Roman~~** · 01-11-05, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by OpteronGuy

Dune is a mix of Technology and Prescience (sp?)

I now remember how null-ships piloted themselves: prescience.
When heighliners moved at their ridiculously fast speeds, only the mutated Guild Navigators could pilote them on a spice trance.
When the Ixians created null-chambers to hide from the God-Emperor, I guess they also figured out how to recreate the prescience with a machine. That's why the Honored Matres could have such huge fleets of no-ships, and how the Scattering could take place.

How does prescience work? Probably the same way Q can will things out of existance, or change time, or walk through ship walls.

**esp** · 01-11-05, 09:01 PM

I'm sorry.
The concept of the 'Q' continuum doesn't seem to have filtered through to SW (and even Dune) fans.
Not that I wish to appear condesending, but any given member of the 'Q' continuum is, by definition, not subject to any other force, ruling or power, less than that of a 'Q'.
They are ultimately powerful.
Invoke whatsoever 'forces' or powers as you may wish...
the 'Q' by definition control them ALL.

**~~Roman~~** · 01-11-05, 10:22 PM

Right, their existance and the rules they behave by are entirely at the discretion of Trek writers.

Can we please stop questioning the technology of make believe universes?

**Kron** · 01-12-05, 07:23 AM

I agree. While we're at it, why not include The Hitch Hiker's Guide To The Galaxy in this thread. They have the best technology of them all.

But anyway, back to Dune. I can explain the no-field as a bubble of space that 'pinches' itself of from the external universe.

To explain it using analogies, the no-ship is like a flying saucer, where no-one in the world can look in the third dimension(up and down). In that world, the flying-saucer guys can't see the ground guys and vice versa. But let's say that the computer on the flying saucer CAN see down, and uses it's ability to see in the third dimension to say, drop a rock and splatter someone's brains all over the pavement. The ground guys are normal space-ships, the flying saucer is a no-ship (the levitation field is the no-field), and the computer is an ixian-prescience-computer.

Notice how throwing a rock UP at the flying saucer is much,much harder then simply dropping one. Because in the real world, deactivating the no-field over a rock would bring it back to normal space, throwing a rock UP would require a separate no-field, and using 4-dimensional trignometry, it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to be accurate.

Behold My Geekiness And Tremble.

**Starthane Xyzth** · 01-12-05, 07:38 AM

I haven't had time to thoroughly scrutinize this thread, and the search tool can't always be relied upo: but what about the Bablyon 5 Universe?! How do the inhabitants of that continuum compare with the Star Trek, Star Wars, Dune and other universes for destructive power?

The Earth Alliance, Minbari, Centauri and Narn have some fairly formidable capital ships with big guns, but the significant absence of shielding technology. Then there were the Vorlons, Shadows and "First Ones" (miscellaneous ancient races), who had arcanely-designed weapons capable of destroying planets. The "Great Machine" on Epsilon 3 was rumoured to be of immense power, but never employed to its full capacity.

**Kron** · 01-12-05, 07:58 AM

Good point. In the heat of the debate I had forgotten about the universe of Babylon 5, which is startling. (The Shadows are my role-models)

**Starthane Xyzth** · 01-16-05, 03:18 AM

Because you want to look like a spider-crab-devil? Or do you tend to lie low for long periods of time, then pop up every so often to cause new trouble and continue an old feud?

I suppose a lot of introspective nerd types will identify with the Narn, because they know what it is to suffer...

**Kron** · 01-16-05, 09:06 AM

I just light the strong but silent type. The I-can-just-warp-outta-hyperspace-and-eat-your-planet strong. The so-silent-i'm-invisible type.

**hotsexyangelprincess** · 01-17-05, 04:05 AM

those guys are cool. the "guerillas". Like fremen. you know they would open a can of "eat shit" on everyone else. For Chrissakes, they're insurgents.

**Starthane Xyzth** · 01-17-05, 04:33 AM

I don't think that describes the Shadows, HotSexy: but yeah, insurgents can be cool. Most obviously the Rebels in Star Wars.

I suppose the Maquis were the closest equivalent in Star Trek - but some of them were seriously naff characters, especially the 4 crewmen who got remedial training in the Voyager episode "Learning Curve." Chakotay was OK, though, and could be convincingly strong and silent when the script called for it.