Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Kittamaru]

Since when did you become a master Quantum Physicist? Stealing a pair of whales doesn't affect the timeline? How do we know that somehow those whales weren't responsible for ending the other whales lives? We do not. Also, Kirk affected QUITE a few other peoples lives back in time, mainly by scaring the shit out of them.

Geometry 101- angle of inflection and deflection. I am referring to the end result angle of the piece of debris. When you watch the scene, it bounced off the hull and then also hit the nacelle. The impact on the hull was VERY direct as the debris nearly reversed it's course.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gN5X7lgbgs0

I made it easy for you. That video shows the impact, go to 1:52 in the video and watch. It hit DIRECTLY on the left side shield arcs and then rammed into the bussard collectors on the nacelle.

Do please remember- the Scimitar, according to the analysis given when they first met on the tactical scanners, had starbase style shielding. It's shield grid was enormous and it's power output was incredible.

[Kittamaru]

And I repeat- the debris that hit the ship was almost the size of the damned BRIDGE of the Enterprise. The fact that the ship survived the fight at all, much less an impact like that, is a testiment to Treks ship's sturdiness, a factor that Wars ships lack.

[Saquist]

Actually the shields itn question that were struck by the pieces of the Warbird were in fact fresh shields, or as close as Enterprise had at the moment. The impact angle was 20 degrees at most for the direction of movement involved. Still the shield had gone from nearly untouched to less than 30%.

EXAGGERATION
That shield was not "fresh" Enterprise was moving at mid or high impulse.

Another damning piece of Evidence was the full on ram. Enterprise E was was not even moving 100 meters per second and even at it's 4 million kilo weight that is not much energy at all. However it decimated the Scimitars shields, which were still at 70% and tore the hell out of the vessel.

No...the Scimitar did not have it's shields up.
sounds ridiculous I know..but I have go with RA on this one...no shield effect at all. Those shields weren't up.

[Saquist]

No ...the shields were up the ship was on Red Alert.

Okay first of all thew Borged Earth in the background never got to exist,

Bull....casuality says it did.

it was simply a alternate timeline shadow cuased by the Time Travel, after all.

What an idiot. It was caused by the borg commiting the act of traveling back in time for the purpose of assimilation. we were seeing the results. The sphere initiated the time travel it wasn't until Enterprise enter the vortex did it change.

It's why in Star Trek 4, Kirk did niot try to stop the extinction of Whales, he simply stole a pair. He avoided the whole paradox issue by not trying to change history.

actually this is just taking control of the issue the whales couldn't be guarded from 6 billion people over the next 200 years...this was just stupid reasoning on your part Nutcase...

[Dontai]

Scott, what would you do if the federation flew in to the heart of Star wars space and open a gate way to fluidic space? 8472 has entire reality to themselves and more ship then their are people in star wars universe. They can also destroy planets. Open a fludic rift right next to coruscant.What about if we sent bio organism 128 Gomtuu*aka Tin man?" What would do then? What would you do if i sent fuku in their? Fuku, Little bunny that meow like a cat, generate same power has ten warp cores. Fuku acts as a power source for the Kamidake II, a battleship created by Washu Hakubi from the remains of the original Kamidake.

[Kittamaru]

Dontai... I'm lost 0o'

Kitty > Star Wars

But Kitty > Star Trek too

Kitty > All

And that's a good point... the Cardassians can open a rift to Fluidic space... just travel to the heart of Wars and open one... that'll severely piss off 8472 who will come out and rape a kitten over anything in it's way!

[Saquist]

The Star Wars universe is a significant threat but with less that 6,000 Star Destroyers and a collage of support craft the Federation is not in danager considering the Empire is merely a remnant of it's former self.

The evidence shows that the Kazon are even better armored than Star Wars ships. Voyager continually layed into several Kazon carriers...while shieldless Voayger did only so much damage compared to the whopping!!! SIX TIMES the FIREPOWER that the ENTERPRISE whipped out on the Borg Cube. IF even the Kazon can resist in someway Federation phaser fire without shields then a star Destroyer is in trouble from Federation ships with 200 isoton yields.

This is vs at it's best Trek is becoming the clear victor the more we review trekology.

[Dontai]

Dontai... I'm lost 0o'

Kitty > Star Wars

But Kitty > Star Trek too

Kitty > All

And that's a good point... the Cardassians can open a rift to Fluidic space... just travel to the heart of Wars and open one... that'll severely piss off 8472 who will come out and rape a kitten over anything in it's way!

Don't worry the kitten, which is actually called fuku, is from another show, not trek. The race in the show is alot like 8472, they use organic ships. Thier power core they use in show is genetically modified bunny rabbit creature called fuku, created by washu. It the ship's captain's pet and power source. It was designed to be like giant electric eel, but billion fold time more powerfull lol. 20 terrat wats power a second. To clear up any confusion Kittamaru lol. The Weapons on this ship are up to and around 100 giga wats. So, they trump any star wars weapon other then the death star lol.

[Kittamaru]

You talking about an anime with Sasami and Tenchi Muyo?

[Nasor]

As someone who as been around sciforums for 5 years and was actually around when this thread started, I have to say that the hilarious thing here is that after 3700+ posts this has all been pretty conclusively explored. People are now arguing over topics that have already been addressed many times, but no one is willing to actually dig through the thousands of posts to see if they’re discussing issues that have already been explored.

As a brief summary:

- If you want to argue about the SW galaxy vs. the entire ST galaxy, it’s impossible to discuss it because the vast majority of the ST galaxy is completely unexplored (mainly due to the relatively low speeds of Federation ships). Since no one knows what is out there, it’s kind of useless to argue about it.

-If you want to argue about the SW Galactic Empire vs. the Federation, you have to deal with the fact that the Empire spans an entire galaxy while the Federation only has a few dozen planets. It would be impossible for the Federation to win a war against he Empire simply because Federation ships are so slow that they couldn't even cross meaningful distances in the Empire's space. Also, the Empire's ships are so fast that they could simply threaten a system, wait for the Federation to send a bunch of ships to defend the system, and then pop off to strike a new system while the Federation ships are all in the wrong place. The Federation would have to choose between concentrating its ships in a few systems and leaving the rest completely undefended, or spreading their fleet thinly across all their planets - in which case it will be a series of battles with a large Imperial fleet up against one or two Federation ships in each system.

-If you want to compare technology or speculate about what would happen if one Federation ship went up against one Star Destroyer, you have to decide what information sources you wish to use. The “Tech Manuals” published by Paramount (the owners of ST) and Lucas Arts (the owners of SW) explicitly state that the weapons on Star Destroyers are much, much more powerful than Federation ship weapons. Going by those figures, a Star Destroyer could destroy any Federation ship in a single shot. Since Star Destroyers are designed to survive heavy combat against similarly-armed ships, it’s doubtful that a Federation ship could even damage a Star Destroyer.

If you just want to go by what’s seen in the movies/TV episodes (which is what ST proponents usually want, since if you go by the official books ST doesn’t stand a chance) it’s not nearly as one-sided, but it still seems clear that the Empire has better technology. The Empire has far better power-generating technology; all you need to do is run the numbers on the power output of the Death Star’s main gun to get ample proof of that. They also have much, much faster ships; SW ships can cross the entire galaxy in a few days, while Federation ships would take many decades. The on-screen demonstrations of firepower based on things like vaporizing asteroids seems to show approximately equal levels of firepower, again with the major exception of the Empire’s ability to make a thousand billion gigaton energy cannon (note that this isn’t hyperbole – that’s the actual ballpark of the death star’s energy output). ST has transporters, but those don’t seem very useful in combat since all the larger ships have shields.

A few other random points that people often bring up:

-Either the Genesis Device is not a very good weapon, or the Federation no longer has the technology to build them. If it were the ultimate weapon that some ST proponents like to claim, they would have used it against the Borg and/or Dominion when either one was about to wipe out the Federation.

-The photon torpedoes from the last Voyager episode don’t use interphasic cloaking technology to penetrate shields/hulls. If that’s what you believe, watch the episode again.

[Kittamaru]

The transphasic torpedos did, but they were only used against the cubes (and I must say it was rape)

Also, since warp speed has changed thru the series (the actual value in units of speed per unit of time) it's impossible to correctly state what true warp speed is. Star Wars avoids this by never really stating a distance AND time at the same time... they say one or the other. Thus there is no comparison to base any of this off of. The big thing, though, is Trek ships can just go go gadget warp and go. No calculation or anything. This implies they can see far enough ahead to avoid running into shit. Star Wars ships have to calculate their hyperspace route, which implies not being able to do so.

Also, most of the Star Trek tech manuals are not cannon as they were disproven by direct evidence from the series.

Finally, we're arguing about ficticious people in one world that may come to be and another that will never happen (if you ever get the ability to force choke someone, let me know. I'll teleport over and watch ) Drop it... we're talking about a kitty going critical mass and powering a starship now

[Dontai]

You talking about an anime with Sasami and Tenchi Muyo?

You googled it didn't you? Yes, i am talking about Tenchi Muyo. That show trump star wars so bad. Also, it not kitty it a damn bunny rabbit that makes cat sound. Your google noob (j/k) just next time don't google it lol.

I was thinking Tenchi Muyo vs Star wars. yamada bad luck will cuase star war ship to break down and the empore to fall down a mine shaft ilmao.

we're talking about a kitty going critical mass and powering a starship now!

[TW Scott]

The transphasic torpedos did, but they were only used against the cubes (and I must say it was rape)

No, they obviously did not use Phase Cloak as out of phase is invisible as evidenced before. The safest bet to make is that the weapon produces a sort of phased signature as it comes in. Makes it look like it is not what it actually is. The weak link in any specilized defense is the sensors.

Also, since warp speed has changed thru the series (the actual value in units of speed per unit of time) it's impossible to correctly state what true warp speed is. Star Wars avoids this by never really stating a distance AND time at the same time... they say one or the other. Thus there is no comparison to base any of this off of. The big thing, though, is Trek ships can just go go gadget warp and go. No calculation or anything. This implies they can see far enough ahead to avoid running into shit. Star Wars ships have to calculate their hyperspace route, which implies not being able to do so.

Well ST can se ahead as they travel so slowly. However they do have to plot courses for Warp drive, just not as detailed as Star Wars does. Think about it. If you are only travelling a few thousand times the speed of light and your sensors can pick up major anomalies half a light year away, you have plenty of time to act. But when you travell millons and billions of times the speed of light, even if your sensors can see a hundred light years ahead of you, then you don't have time to react.

Fact of the matter is from Mytas VII to Anoth which are on opposite ends of the SW Galaxy only takes a few days travel with clas 6 hyper drives (class six is 1/6th as fast as Hyperdrive standard). Meanwhile when Voyager was sucked into the Delta Quadrant, it was estimated that to get back to alpha quadrant (about 1/3 the galaxy away) would take around 70 years.

Now, given that the Milky Way is a maller galaxy in the universal scale and that SW galaxy is described as large, my guess is the desparity is even greater than the example.

Also, most of the Star Trek tech manuals are not cannon as they were disproven by direct evidence from the series.

Really? Hmmm, yeah you're right they were, but i would think one would want the higher figures from the books rather than the pathetic flashlights and hand grenades shown in the series.

Finally, we're arguing about ficticious people in one world that may come to be and another that will never happen (if you ever get the ability to force choke someone, let me know. I'll teleport over and watch ) Drop it... we're talking about a kitty going critical mass and powering a starship now

Ah yes, but suspension of disbelief applies here. For the argument they are real. So you don't get to pull the "Well SW is just fiction." card.

[Saquist]

Basics Part I


Voyagers First Pass.
[IMG][/IMG]
Janeway has decided to take the battle to the Kazon in this episode. Voyager drops from Warp and Tuvok proceeds to call out ranges from 10,000 to 2,000. Each time Janeway says not yet, illistrating that Voyager could have cut loose with it's phasers at greater range.




Defense
[IMG][/IMG]

Star Trek Voyager was incredibly consistent with just how much Voyager could take concerning Kazon firepower. With Federation phasers being more destructive close range and it's shields proving more than a matach for one of these Kazon carriers as they are called, Janeway distracts 4 of them and takes on the other four.



Voyager's Run
[IMG][/IMG]
This is the begining of Voyager
s run through the next two vessels. Note there are no smaller shield Kazon raiders only the carriers. These vessels are massive 1,000 plus Kilometers long

[Saquist]

Voyager's Run
[IMG] [/IMG]

Voyager pulled out the firepower for this episdoe utilizing dual phaser implacements and multitargeting using the Talaxian Holograms as a distraction



[IMG] [/IMG]

Voyager's phasers do about the same damage they've been doing against the Kazon for some time. It's unclear whether Voyager's targets are weapon's emplacements or critical power systems.

[IMG] [/IMG]

These images progress from the last or bottom to the top in chronological order.

[Nasor]

The transphasic torpedos did, but they were only used against the cubes (and I must say it was rape)

Lol. Like I said, this has all been done to death before. No, there was nothing in the episode to indicate that the transphasic torpedoes used the same technology as the interphasic cloaking device. They simply say that the torpedoes were specially designed to defeat the Borg's adaptive defenses. If you watch the episode, the torpedoes clearly detonate when they strike the outer surface of the Borg cube's hull - they don't pass through to explode inside the ship.

Also, since warp speed has changed thru the series (the actual value in units of speed per unit of time) it's impossible to correctly state what true warp speed is. Star Wars avoids this by never really stating a distance AND time at the same time... they say one or the other. Thus there is no comparison to base any of this off of.

Again, this has been beaten to death over and over. They made an entire ST series around the premise that it takes a Federation ship decades to cross a large chunk of the galaxy.

In SW Episode Two, the rescue mission for Obi Wan arrives in just a few days, even though they explicitly state that it will have to travel half way across the galaxy. This is confirmed by both dialog and the map shown in the Jedi temple (or whatever that building was). In fact, earlier in the movie Obi Wan travels the same distance in a one-man fighter in a few days at most!

However fast warp speed might be, there is no question that SW ships are vastly faster than ST ships – so much so that the Federation couldn’t even offer a coherent defense, as discussed in my previous post. .

The big thing, though, is Trek ships can just go go gadget warp and go. No calculation or anything. This implies they can see far enough ahead to avoid running into shit. Star Wars ships have to calculate their hyperspace route, which implies not being able to do so.

Maybe that has something to do with the fact that SW ships are going about a thousand times faster?

Also, most of the Star Trek tech manuals are not cannon as they were disproven by direct evidence from the series.

Oh? You have evidence from the series that a photon torpedo has a yield of more than around 5 megatons? If so, I would be interested to hear it.

[Kittamaru]

Scott, that still doesn't mention what an actual distance is.

For all we know, just because the Star Wars "galaxy" was called large, the rest of their galaxies could be tiny compared our own. Fact of the matter is, we have no hard numbers to calculate on. There is a reason for that- doing so leads to trouble because people try to make threads like these and base them on hard science and mathmatics where they shouldn't.

[Kittamaru]

Evidence - a 5 megaton explosion would not look as spectacular as it often does in the movies. Thus let it be said, thus let it be known. That and the Star Wars explosions don't look much more spectacular than the ones in Star Trek. Since we KNOW that neither side uses shaped charges on their standard weapons, then we can compare explosion radius for a rough power estimate.

As for the warp/hyperdive speed difference - again, crossing half the galaxy in a few hours is nice, but how do we know that galaxy isn't a mere 3 light years across? We don't! We have NO idea just how big it is because NEVER does Star Wars give us Velocity+Bearing+Time or outright Distance. All we get is it will take x time to get there with hyperdrive (whoopidifuckingdo) or it's a "long time to get there".... nice. The same happens in Star Trek, but people assume the milky way is the size of our milky way... what happened to expansion and contraction of the universe and everything in it is beyond me

[Nasor]

Evidence - a 5 megaton explosion would not look as spectacular as it often does in the movies.

5 megatons would be a very large nuclear weapon - about 380 times more powerful than the bomb dropped on Hiroshima. Most of the explosions seen in the show look much smaller than that.

As for the warp/hyperdive speed difference - again, crossing half the galaxy in a few hours is nice, but how do we know that galaxy isn't a mere 3 light years across? We don't! We have NO idea just how big it is because NEVER does Star Wars give us Velocity+Bearing+Time or outright Distance.

Ah, right. Maybe they were able to cross the galaxy quickly because it was a very tiny galaxy. And even if they actually said that a SW ship could cross 50000 lightyears in a day, well, how do we know that light goes the same speed in SW? And how do we know that a day is the same length? Maybe in the SW universe, the word "day" means "50 years"

Seriously, now. There is no reason to suspect that the SW galaxy is particularly small. It’s clear that SW ships can cross a galaxy in days, while ST ships would take decades. If you want to propose that the SW galaxy is a lot smaller than the ST galaxy, you need to provide some evidence to back that claim up. Note that “I want ST to win” does not constitute evidence.

[Saquist]

[QUOTE=Nasor;1375953]

As someone who as been around sciforums for 5 years and was actually around when this thread started, I have to say that the hilarious thing here is that after 3700+ posts this has all been pretty conclusively explored. People are now arguing over topics that have already been addressed many times, but no one is willing to actually dig through the thousands of posts to see if they’re discussing issues that have already been explored.

I have...and have especially looked at TwScott aka Nutcase, and the discussion in the begining was so superficial it was barely worth the Tread and Scott, aka Nutcase, proceed to bash Mars repeatedly for his persepective....It's alot of pages like that.

- If you want to argue about the SW galaxy vs. the entire ST galaxy, it’s impossible to discuss it because the vast majority of the ST galaxy is completely unexplored (mainly due to the relatively low speeds of Federation ships). Since no one knows what is out there, it’s kind of useless to argue about it.

I agree.

-If you want to argue about the SW Galactic Empire vs. the Federation, you have to deal with the fact that the Empire spans an entire galaxy

No the Empire does not span the Entire Galaxy.

while the Federation only has a few dozen planets.

The Federation has been described in First Contact as having thousands of star systems over thousands of lightyears.

It would be impossible for the Federation to win a war against he Empire simply because Federation ships are so slow that they couldn't even cross meaningful distances in the Empire's space

That's true...which is why many often put the Federation on the Defense.

. Also, the Empire's ships are so fast that they could simply threaten a system, wait for the Federation to send a bunch of ships to defend the system, and then pop off to strike a new system while the Federation ships are all in the wrong place.

The first such strike would work but Star Fleet displays more tactical prowess than the Emprie ever had.

The Federation would have to choose between concentrating its ships in a few systems and leaving the rest completely undefended,

Not necessarily....Star Fleet has defense networks as well. The fleet isn't the only consideration.

-If you want to compare technology or speculate about what would happen if one Federation ship went up against one Star Destroyer, you have to decide what information sources you wish to use. The “Tech Manuals” published by Paramount (the owners of ST) and Lucas Arts (the owners of SW) explicitly state that the weapons on Star Destroyers are much, much more powerful than Federation ship weapons.

Ah but neither is canon or absolute to the film, as I've proven without meaningful dispute.

Going by those figures, a Star Destroyer could destroy any Federation ship in a single shot. Since Star Destroyers are designed to survive heavy combat against similarly-armed ships, it’s doubtful that a Federation ship could even damage a Star Destroyer.

YOu haven't been here in a while but I have shown that the Galaxy class is sporting more than 6 times the fire power of a turbo laser by using nothing but canon examples.

If you just want to go by what’s seen in the movies/TV episodes (which is what ST proponents usually want, since if you go by the official books ST doesn’t stand a chance) it’s not nearly as one-sided, but it still seems clear that the Empire has better technology.

Only to you... Transporters, replicators, and the ability to create dimensional rifts is something that is far far away from Imperial tech.

The Empire has far better power-generating technology;

That's never been proven

all you need to do is run the numbers on the power output of the Death Star’s main gun to get ample proof of that.

The ability to destroy a star system seems to trump the ability to destroy a planet does it not.

They also have much, much faster ships;

Speed isn't everything but it is the only clear advantage STar Wars ships do have.

ST has transporters, but those don’t seem very useful in combat since all the larger ships have shields.

Ignore canon...I can't let you do that. Voyager has used transporters in a limited function to targets.



-

Either the Genesis Device is not a very good weapon, or the Federation no longer has the technology to build them. If it were the ultimate weapon that some ST proponents like to claim, they would have used it against the Borg and/or Dominion when either one was about to wipe out the Federation.

That's not a valid statement. Star Fleet has put the technology of the Genesis Device in a practicle purpose and it's been used before. Star Fleet doesn't uses superweapons and doomsday weapons to achieve victory. Your standards are different from the Federation..You're more like the US. Victory at all cost even at the cost of innocent lives. Star Fleet has never perscribed to the doomsday weapon.