View Poll Results: Which universe would win?

Voters
670. This poll is closed
  • Star Trek

    227 33.88%
  • Star Wars

    285 42.54%
  • Spaceballs

    51 7.61%
  • Farscape

    14 2.09%
  • Dune

    54 8.06%
  • Stargate

    39 5.82%

Thread: Star Wars vs Star Trek

  1. #3581
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSG2k View Post
    Given your own posts you ought not call the kettle black.



    Let's ponder these:

    1. The Federation fields approximately 10,000 starships. The Empire has approximately 25,000 vessels of ISD firepower-equivalence (i.e. it could just be a zillion fighters or they could have a few thousand ISDs plus numerous smaller vessels . . . hence the equivalence).
    The Federation has 10,000 starships, including frieghters and runabouts. The Empire had 10,000 Imperial class Star Destroyers. Just one class of them there is also Victory Cass, Acclamator class, Nebulon frigates. Dreadnaughts, Assault Frigates, Corellian Corvettes, Corellian Gunships, Action V Bulk Cruiser and so on. Individual planets are known for keeping cruiser sized ships for customs and inspections. The Empire alone can access millions of capital class Starships without resporting to Bulk Frieghters like the Trade Federation Battle cruisers.

    2. Tactically, ship-to-ship, the Empire is doomed. Star Trek vessels have a ridiculous advantage in weapons range and maneuverability, with decisive advantages in acceleration and firepower.

    On a fleet level it's almost as bad. The Battle of Coruscant and the Battle of Endor look like uncoordinated schoolyard fights between second-graders. At least Star Trek fleet actions show evidence of command and control.
    You have no understanding of canon or physics.
    ISD
    Main Armament: Heavy Turbolasers.
    Number: 60
    Output per weapon: 5.2e20 joules
    Rate of Fire: Once every two seconds.
    Mean output per second: 1.56e21 joules

    Federation Sovereign Class Starship
    Main Armament: Photon Torpedo
    Number: 6 Luancers
    Output per weapon. Maximum Theorhetical 2.6624E17
    Rate of fire. Average of One per second

    Main Armament: Type XII Phaser
    Number: 24
    Output Per weapon: 1.25E10
    Rate of Fire: once every five seconds
    Mean output per second: 1.59744006E18

    Comparison
    ISD: 1.56e21 joules
    Fed Sovereign: 1.59744006E18

    ISD = 976.56 Federation Sovereign Class Starships in firepower
    Federation Starship = 0.0010240000384615384615384615384615 Imperial class Star Destroyers

    Shields
    Imperial Class Star Destroyer: Built to take multiple 12.5 gigaton blasts before straining.
    Federation Galaxy Class Starship" Shields scrambled by 400 GW blast.


    Only thing Star Trek has on Star Wars is Tactical Speed, but that hardly matters in goal line stands. If a Hundred ISD's come for Earth do you think Starfleet will try to dance while their Phasers and Torpedos have no effect or will they stay still and try to draw fire away from the planet?



    3. Strategically the Empire is hopeless. Their idea of fighting against an insurgent Rebellion which had excellent ships (by their own admission) was to waste resources on a huge battlestation equivalent to a stupid number of ships. Then, after that one was blown up, instead of learning their lesson they did it again.

    And in their desperate search for the Rebels, they expended a mere few thousand probe droids, instead of the *billions* they ought to have been able to produce and dispatch.

    Their one moment of glory was to lure the Rebels into a trap, but the trap was so poorly executed that they failed on every front.
    Moot points as in this conflict the Rebles will be helping the Empire hehe. As for the Death Star, both were completed in secret hidden inside of budgets as minor bookkeeping entries. In fact the second one was not started until just after Luke and Vader's duel on Bespin. So it was completed to that point in under six months and had more mass than the original.

    4. The Empire may have an advantage in FTL speed, but it's minimal. Using the Sullust-Endor trip gives the Empire a velocity in the warp 9.2+ range with endurance measured in days instead of hours, though there are significantly faster Federation ships. Common velocities are more equal.
    The Jump from Sullust to Endor took mere minutes. Travel form one end of the galaxy in SW to the other takes hours, days at worse. Yoyagers initial ETA wth the alpha quadrant was 70 years at top speed and that was only half the milky way. So SW has a phenomenal advantage in speed.

    5. As for power generation, huge fusion plants like the Empire uses do not trump antimatter-fueled dilithium matrices. When a ship like Voyager can make as much or more power for longer duration, your ISD is looking pretty lame.
    Sorry, but Fusion generators are used for smaller devices, like Droids, Fusion Lamps, light weaponry. ISD have Solar Ionization generators for main power and the output is not unlike a small star. Besides with the Canon of the power outputs for weapon obviously they are using some rather interesting types of fusion. Oh and the Death Star uses hypermatter.

    In short, the Empire must win by lightning war with savage brutality and massive force concentration, hoping to win Federation surrender before the Federation can marshal its forces and crush the Empire, or the Empire must be transformed into a massive war-machine shipyard, fighting a heavy-losses total war of attrition lasting for years.
    In short you haven't a clue what your talking about.

  2. #3582
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSG2k View Post
    Ah, you mean the unofficial DS9:TM figures, universally (and unequivocably) regarded as wrong and non-canon? The one with different ships having the same data? That "Paramount figure"?
    No, as in from the Paramount website a--hole.

    Who says tritanium is lighter than titanium? Borg ship densities would suggest that it is *very* dense. The Borg use tritanium in their hulls, and even their wee little scouts mass over three times Voyager's mass.
    Their wee little Scout was Three times as big as Voyager once you count in all the fact that it is a simple shape and not some retarded engineers bad dream.

    However according the Paramount Tritanium is half as light as Titanium. Always go to the source


    Good, then I should be easy to debate, eh?
    Actually you are becuase you do most of the damage to yourself.


    Coming from a guy who's trying to use the DS9 Tech Manual like a canon resource, I can't help but find this statement amusing.
    Wasn't the DS9 tech book, hell I never even seen one in person. It is however based off the website Paramount owns and runs.

    As have most big-name sites on silly topics. Really, that's the best you can do?
    You do realize that being Farked is to be proven lower than a liar and cheat.

  3. #3583
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    I guess you would know that from experience, right Scott?

  4. #3584
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru View Post
    I guess you would know that from experience, right Scott?
    Never been Farked and god willing never will be

  5. #3585
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    The Federation has 10,000 starships, including frieghters and runabouts.
    Runabouts weren't even introduced until 2368. Even if they built a smorgasbord of them that scarcely affects the numbers derived from NCCs. Since you're familiar with my site I'll simply direct you to the Chrono-Volumetrics page.

    The Empire had 10,000 Imperial class Star Destroyers.
    Source?

    The Empire alone can access millions of capital class Starships without resporting to Bulk Frieghters like the Trade Federation Battle cruisers.
    Perhaps so, but by armament they would still only have 25,000 vessels of ISD equivalence.

    You have no understanding of canon or physics.
    ISD
    Main Armament: Heavy Turbolasers.
    Number: 60
    Um, you're using West End Games figures (though the above was also repeated in the latest ICS compilation). This means you're using EU sources. Did you want a movie-universe conflict or is this EU vs. Trek?

    In any case, the RotS novelization makes it clear that Star Wars heavy shipboard weapons are only capable of 'vaporizing small towns', which puts them in the very low megatons at best. A photon torpedo is worth a hundred such heavy turbolaser shots, and unlike the Empire the Federation could actually get its torpedoes to hit the target.

    Federation Galaxy Class Starship" Shields scrambled by 400 GW blast.
    Should've known you'd try that. Go see my "Survivors" Fallacy page.

    Only thing Star Trek has on Star Wars is Tactical Speed, but that hardly matters in goal line stands. If a Hundred ISD's come for Earth do you think Starfleet will try to dance while their Phasers and Torpedos have no effect or will they stay still and try to draw fire away from the planet?
    If a hundred ISDs come for Earth they would drop out of hyperspace about one planetary diameter away at the closest, then lumber toward the planet so they could eventually get in range. That puts them in range of Earth-based weaponry right off the bat, and gives plenty of warning for planetary shields. Those 100 ISDs are toast.

    Moot points as in this conflict the Rebles will be helping the Empire hehe.
    Not moot points . . . you were claiming the Empire had advantages in 'strategery'. I therefore pointed out how awful and bumbling their strategies are.

    But hey, it's fine to assume the Rebels are helping. I take it that implies that the Federation gets help from its friends and enemies, too? Since the Empire would have a mess of trouble taking just the Federation, it would be much fun to imagine them facing the combined forces of the Alpha Quadrant. Or are we even including more quadrants in this?

    As for the Death Star, both were completed in secret hidden inside of budgets as minor bookkeeping entries. In fact the second one was not started until just after Luke and Vader's duel on Bespin.
    Says who?

    The Jump from Sullust to Endor took mere minutes.
    It took a minimum of 110 hours. That's about 4.6 days.

    Travel form one end of the galaxy in SW to the other takes hours, days at worse.
    Since (1) Star Wars vessels never need to travel from one end of the galaxy to the other, because (2) the Empire does not span its galaxy nor even come close, your argument is nullified.

    Instead, it took the Royal Yacht of the Naboo the better part of a day to travel less than a parsec. Archer's Enterprise NX-01 could've accomplished the same feat, and that's a slow ship in the Trek-verse.

    Sorry, but Fusion generators are used for smaller devices, like Droids, Fusion Lamps, light weaponry.
    Then why does the RotS novelization make it clear that starships are powered by fusion? Why was it already clear thanks to the ANH novelization?

    In short
    In short you totally ignored the points that Star Trek has profound advantages in weapons range and ship maneuverability and acceleration.

  6. #3586
    Yes, he's right you've been proven a liar on now five different occasions.
    And it seems as though you wouldn't know the truth if you ever saw it with Lucas suckling your crotch, he's really got by the scrotum.

    Your reactions on this thread have been purely indicative of sexual excitement and addiction, Scott. You say yes to whatever is pro Star Wars, you discredit yourself to the extent of lying and ignoring the truth. You make up imaginary numbers in the middle of a post with lame brain conclussions like...."20 % of structural damage is damage to .....OPEN SPACE,??!!!!!" You didn't even bother to turn your head and cough during that physical did you?

    Tell me does Lucas ever use a rubber on you or do you just shove you pecker through the DVD hole when you need your Star Wars high? You know you have to put that mess into the DVD player to watch it right?

    This isn't the only time you've lied to try to get out of it. I love rehashing it because earch time you lie it just builds. I've subsequently have lost any respect if there ever was any for you.

    Lying about the naboo fighter brought down by a mere tank? REMEMBER THAT? As though everyone on this thread couldn't go back and freeze frame the movie (Phantom Menace) and see your rank lying for themselves.

    Now you're preposing to tell us...(Trek fans) how big the Federation Fleet is. You WONG FAN BOY, you. You didn't even do your research on Defiants top speed. You loafer...believing that Prometheus was Star Fleet's fastest ship just from what a hologram had said...Despite the fact the slowest warships in the Quadrant had caught the ship at the end...Oh yeah...that's fast...

    All you've done is lie after lie....It's your MO...I've now come to expect nothing more from you...

  7. #3587
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    No, as in from the Paramount website a--hole.
    There is no ship info on Paramount.com. But even if there were, what of it? No one has ever suggested that corporate websites . . . or even StarTrek.com itself . . . are canon.

    Their wee little Scout was Three times as big as Voyager once you count in all the fact that it is a simple shape and not some retarded engineers bad dream.
    There's no evidence the 5-drone scout was bigger than Voyager. If anything, it seems to have been far smaller.

    You do realize that being Farked is to be proven lower than a liar and cheat.
    Currently also Farked are articles from News.com.au, ABC News Online, CNN, AP, Fox News, MSNBC, and so on. Some even have the same "scary" funny label. Are they all liars and cheats, too?

    Or is it that you just don't know what Fark is (a site where anyone, including disgruntled opponents, can submit a link) and would rather try to attack the man instead of the arguments he presents in the hopes that other idiots won't listen?

    After all, seems to have worked well on you.

  8. #3588
    Registered Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru View Post
    This is where I say RTFM.

    That site has been linked and pointed to, it provides proof of many of the arguments we are throwing out at you (including proof by stop-motion analysis) and yet you completely disregard it.

    You Loose. Period. The End. Get your facts right or get out. The rest of the Star Wars fans have admited defeat and left in good graces... you alone continue to sling the proverbial mud!

    He is so blind to the truth, that he doesn't even see that star wars is dead. He like bleeding dieing man on ground, who ignores the fact the he is dieing, and continue to fight even no he damn well know he is dieing. Every star wars fan on this site got bored and left, thought argument was stupid , or just plain gave up after they realized how hopeless the situation was. Scott wanks off to star war, infact emperor gives him hard on like no one business. He just cant let it die , if he does he will never be able to get rough woody again ...

  9. #3589
    Rough Woody...he he he...

  10. #3590
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    His "rough woody" was sanded to a mere toothpick by the combined arguments of a handful of real debators throwing point after point against his stack of lies.

  11. #3591
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    Actually, I am arguing nothing. the matter was solved long ago. Star Wars wallked all over Star Trek. It wasn't even a contest in the end. The entire Milky Way was conquered in under three months. The Borg hunted down and destroyed in short order. The only worlds left relatively intact were the ones who surrendered or bartered deals. Too late the Federation broke out the Voyager and even then the vessel was easily crushed by a single Imperial Star Destroyer. The Death Star III obliterated the Founder Homeworld as an object lesson to the last resisters. Not a single Star Trek mortal Empire remained. Even the Skin of Evil was destroyed, the victim of a supernova.

    I'm just the Intructor left behind to deal with the special needs students.

  12. #3592
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    Dear heavens, he snapped!

    But perhaps he'll still reply to my posts . . .

  13. #3593
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSG2k View Post
    There is no ship info on Paramount.com. But even if there were, what of it? No one has ever suggested that corporate websites . . . or even StarTrek.com itself . . . are canon.
    Actually since Paramount decides what Canon for Star Trek is I would say their info or StarTrek.com is as close as we are going to get. We can extrtapolate from TV shows, but since a Glaxy class Star Ships shields are only in the 400 gigawats range the 12.5 for Phasers seems about right. Plus quasi canon puts the Antimatter warhead in a Photon Torpedo at 1.5 kg oa AM and 1.5 kg of M at 100% efficency that is 64 megatons.


    If we go by strict canon we know that (according to Data) the ship generator produce 12 billion gigawats (presumably) Now a Heavy Turbolaser fires a bolt that does 700 billion gigawats for 1/15 of a second (total of 52 billion gigwatts). So a single Turbolaser produces and effect ~600 times more power than the entire output of a Galaxy class Starship warp. Even if the Sovereign were a 1000% upgrade it would fall short.



    There's no evidence the 5-drone scout was bigger than Voyager. If anything, it seems to have been far smaller.
    Actually if you are referring to the ship that harry Kim detonated with a Photon Torpedo, it is very much so more massive. I's solid box shape hives it more cubic space that the completely inefficent Federation design. Now if there is another much smaller craft then I may be wrong, but then as they never say what Borg use for power the mass could be a singularity.

  14. #3594
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSG2k View Post
    Runabouts weren't even introduced until 2368. Even if they built a smorgasbord of them that scarcely affects the numbers derived from NCCs. Since you're familiar with my site I'll simply direct you to the Chrono-Volumetrics page.
    Okay, show where Paramount or Roddenberry said 10,000 ships. Oh that's right you can't. The Federation doens't have enough worlds to support 10,000 ships of even the Intrepid class. The Federation only consists of a few hundred member worlds and that includes colonies. I know we are supposed to suspend disbelief, but come on the Federation presented could not support than many vessels unless ~40% were capital ships and the rest Runabouts and freighters.



    Source?
    Both West End Games and Wizards of the Coast. This number is supported by soime higher canon and not refuted by movies or novelization. In fact nothing short of the Star Trek Fan sites place the number as anything lower.


    Perhaps so, but by armament they would still only have 25,000 vessels of ISD equivalence.
    Oh that is Utter bullshit there. They have 25,000 ISD style hulls which are used for ISD, ISDII, and variant craft. There are tens of thousands of VSD, Corellian Gunships, Dreadnaughts, Assualt Frigates, Mon Calamarian ships, Happan navy, Chiss ships, the Yuzhan vong.....

    Um, you're using West End Games figures (though the above was also repeated in the latest ICS compilation). This means you're using EU sources. Did you want a movie-universe conflict or is this EU vs. Trek?
    This is Standard Lucasfilm Limited canon policy.

    In any case, the RotS novelization makes it clear that Star Wars heavy shipboard weapons are only capable of 'vaporizing small towns', which puts them in the very low megatons at best. A photon torpedo is worth a hundred such heavy turbolaser shots, and unlike the Empire the Federation could actually get its torpedoes to hit the target.
    Vaporizing Small Towns by Star Wars standards not Earth Stardard. Mos Eisley was a small town according to Star Wars canon. However we have never seen a photon torpedo do anything more than a 20 kiloton event normally and even then it was used against a shuttle with a Warp core. The rest of the time it was sub kiloton. Witness Wrath of Kahn, Undiscovered Country, Generation, First Contact, Insurrection and Nemesis. Even in voyager break apart a asteroid is hard megaton level effect, especially when the asteroid contain brittle mineral.

    Besides you are failing to take into account the effect. Vaporizing a town with a beam that itself is only scant few meters is beyond impressive. One shot and five mile radius is vaporized! Does not sit well for any Federation vessels.



    Should've known you'd try that. Go see my "Survivors" Fallacy page.
    I did, and you have been rebutted by everyone with a working forebrain. I'll break it down into idiot so I am sure you get it.

    Example A: Say I am a being that can create and manipulate energy and matter. I want to destroy a building. So I create a wrecking ball and swing around my head a few times and smash it into the building using my ability to manipulate energy. Okay, now I smash down the building with this wrecking ball. The Wrecking ball is of course created via my powers as was the energy to propel it, but does it change the out come

    Example B: Say I am a mage, my powers are completely unexplainable by science. However I submit to a study. One of the tests is that I heat a volume of water to boiling in a second. Now I cast my spell or what have you and the water heats to 100 degrees C in one second. Does the fact that i used magic change the fact that I created heat?


    If a hundred ISDs come for Earth they would drop out of hyperspace about one planetary diameter away at the closest, then lumber toward the planet so they could eventually get in range. That puts them in range of Earth-based weaponry right off the bat, and gives plenty of warning for planetary shields. Those 100 ISDs are toast.
    100 ISD's would come out at one planetary diameter and start bombardment with Assulat concussion missles and weaponry as they are within range. Federation Earth does not have planetary shields. Before phasers can even be energized a good deal of the surface is now molten slag. Even firing back the Federation weaponry would be less than useless as the ISD are too heavily shielded.


    Not moot points . . . you were claiming the Empire had advantages in 'strategery'. I therefore pointed out how awful and bumbling their strategies are.
    Or was it just the fact that the Rebels had better strategy and superior luck?

    But hey, it's fine to assume the Rebels are helping. I take it that implies that the Federation gets help from its friends and enemies, too? Since the Empire would have a mess of trouble taking just the Federation, it would be much fun to imagine them facing the combined forces of the Alpha Quadrant. Or are we even including more quadrants in this?
    Hell bring them all, still isn't going to help. The Federation is big kid on the block.The Borg are a more powerful enemy, but their reactive nature instead of proactive is a hinderance. It doesn't matter who you bring, Star Wars outclasses anyone who'd join the conflict. In truth the conflict would just a foot note. It would be like sending the 87th Airborne back in time with their gear and letting them take on British Redcoats circa French-Indian war.



    Says who
    ?

    Shadows of the Empire. The first Death Star was a project Palapatine did not reveal until it was completed . The second started construction after the ESB story and before ROTJ. The time lapse between them is only Six months.


    It took a minimum of 110 hours. That's about 4.6 days.
    Novelization, Sullust is not actually that far form Endor. Besides if it was 110 hours why were some pilots in craft that only had life support for 3 days?

    Since (1) Star Wars vessels never need to travel from one end of the galaxy to the other, because (2) the Empire does not span its galaxy nor even come close, your argument is nullified.
    The First Galactic Empire controlled ~70% of the galaxy and had diplomatic ties with two of the other major players. My Argument stands and you are proven a liar yet again


    Instead, it took the Royal Yacht of the Naboo the better part of a day to travel less than a parsec. Archer's Enterprise NX-01 could've accomplished the same feat, and that's a slow ship in the Trek-verse.
    Where do you get that it took the better part of a day?

    Then why does the RotS novelization make it clear that starships are powered by fusion? Why was it already clear thanks to the ANH novelization?
    Only if you read it incorrectly. The term "Miniature Sun" could mean fusion, but it could also mean that the power generator produced the same amount of power as star but was smaller. Given what we see these ships do which is more likely...

    Now I know what you are going to say. But even if it is fusion, what type of fusion. Could be just about anything. Some form produce far more power than you realize.


    In short you totally ignored the points that Star Trek has profound advantages in weapons range and ship maneuverability and acceleration.
    Star trek has shown NO real advantage in weapon range. Their weapons may fire that far but they fight at point blank range. As for Maneuverability and acceleration, how is that going to help when their most powerful weapon is not even the equival;ent of Star Fighers weapons.


    Now go away little man before I call in the bigdogs to give you the ISD smack down again. Oh a treat for all those who want to see what a big dog does to a moron....


    RSA Debates Michael Wong and loses

  15. #3595
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Actually since Paramount decides what Canon for Star Trek is I would say their info or StarTrek.com is as close as we are going to get.
    1. You are not the decider of Trek canon.
    2. Reports from those who are the deciders on StarTrek.com do not include StarTrek.com in the list, thus it is illogical to conclude that StarTrek.com is canon.

    See CanonWars.com for more information.

    We can extrtapolate from TV shows, but since a Glaxy class Star Ships shields are only in the 400 gigawats range
    Ah, how nice. You hold fast to the smallest known value, a value known to be illusory, ignoring everything else from the other 27 seasons of Trek plus the rest of that one. How grand.

    We could do the same, you know . . . making hyperdrive far slower than warp, TIE weapons (as seen against asteroids) almost totally ineffectual, and so on. Were it not for our generosity you'd undoubtedly be having a coronary.

    You do realize that the shields of a Galaxy Class ship would be unable to withstand a single shot from an NX Class ship from 200 years prior by that standard, right?

    Now a Heavy Turbolaser fires a bolt that does 700 billion gigawats for 1/15 of a second (total of 52 billion gigwatts).
    You don't know what watts and joules are, do you? Besides which, 1.5 megatons is 6.3 million gigajoules.

    Actually if you are referring to the ship that harry Kim detonated with a Photon Torpedo
    No, I'm not. Reference "I, Borg".

  16. #3596
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Okay, show where Paramount or Roddenberry said 10,000 ships. Oh that's right you can't.
    From Memory-Alpha.org:

    "Regarding the quantity of starships Starfleet had in use in the late 2370s, Ronald D. Moore commented: "I wouldn't be surprised if Starfleet had 30,000 ships or so." [1] This was based on reasoning that the USS Hood has a registry of NCC-42296 while the USS Voyager is NCC-74656."

    My own estimates based on registries, ship lifetimes, and direct knowledge of Dominion/Cardassian/Breen fleet size (in the 30,000 ship range) suggests a range of 8-12,000 ships for the Feds.

    The Federation doens't have enough worlds to support 10,000 ships of even the Intrepid class.
    Intrepid Class? Like Voyager that virtually supported itself for seven years?

    Both West End Games and Wizards of the Coast.
    I figured that was the source for your 10,000 ISDs.

    Standard Lucasfilm Limited canon policy.
    There are two potential policies to use . . . the one employed by Lucas, and the one employed by Lucas Licensing, an LFL subsidiary. You obviously choose to use the subsidiary, but I prefer the filmmaker, creator, and Chairman of the Board.

    Per Lucas, the EU is a "parallel universe", with EU novels treated akin to Trek novels, and I don't find that to be a particularly useful source of info.

    You do, however, because that means your friends at StarDestroyer.Net get a little credit, since they got to help calculate figures for one of the EU tech manuals.

    Vaporizing Small Towns by Star Wars standards not Earth Stardard. Mos Eisley was a small town according to Star Wars canon.
    Concession accepted.

    Even in voyager break apart a asteroid is hard megaton level effect, especially when the asteroid contain brittle mineral
    Read the "Rise" page on ST-v-SW.Net and get back to me.

    Vaporizing a town with a beam that itself is only scant few meters is beyond impressive.
    Same with a nuke. Or a torpedo.

    Example A: Say I am a being that can create and manipulate energy and matter. I want to destroy a building. So I create a wrecking ball and swing around my head a few times and smash it into the building using my ability to manipulate energy. Okay, now I smash down the building with this wrecking ball. The Wrecking ball is of course created via my powers as was the energy to propel it, but does it change the out come
    False analogy . . . but yes, because you're ignoring the purpose of the wrecking ball. You need the appearance of the wrecking ball. It might as well be a hologram . . . you're still using your energy.

    Example B: Say I am a mage, my powers are completely unexplainable by science. However I submit to a study. One of the tests is that I heat a volume of water to boiling in a second. Now I cast my spell or what have you and the water heats to 100 degrees C in one second. Does the fact that i used magic change the fact that I created heat?
    False analogy. And no, you may or may not have created heat. You may have simply made it appear so.

    100 ISD's would come out at one planetary diameter and start bombardment with Assulat concussion missles and weaponry as they are within range.
    They can't shoot anything beyond 5000km, and that's theoretical maximum range . . . not observed. I have a page on this . . . read it.

    Federation Earth does not have planetary shields.
    Even crappy planets have planetary shields in Trek, unlike in Star Wars.

    Before phasers can even be energized a good deal of the surface is now molten slag.
    With 1.5 megaton turbolasers? I think not.

    Even firing back the Federation weaponry would be less than useless as the ISD are too heavily shielded.
    Highly accurate phaser beams in the 1-10 megaton range are going to eat the ISDs for breakfast. Heaven help the Empire if the Feds fire a torpedo.

    Shadows of the Empire.
    So you want it to be an EU universe match, instead of Lucas's canon of the films?

    Of course you do.

    Novelization, Sullust is not actually that far form Endor.
    Hundreds of light-years.

    Besides if it was 110 hours why were some pilots in craft that only had life support for 3 days?
    Because you're mixing film canon and EU.

    The First Galactic Empire controlled ~70% of the galaxy and had diplomatic ties with two of the other major players. My Argument stands and you are proven a liar yet again
    No, you're proven to be a mixer of canons for your own gain. Pick one and stick with it.

    Where do you get that it took the better part of a day?
    ST-v-SW.Net, Hyperdrive speed article

    Now I know what you are going to say. But even if it is fusion, what type of fusion. Could be just about anything. Some form produce far more power than you realize.
    Uhhh . . . how many forms of fusion do you think there are?

    Star trek has shown NO real advantage in weapon range.
    200,000km > 5,000km

    That's observed effective range versus *theorized* maximum range.

    Now go away little man before I call in the bigdogs to give you the ISD smack down again.
    Oh look, a threat of one of SD.Net's usual board invasions! How quaint.

  17. #3597
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
    Posts
    7,920
    He is groveling for mercy, pulling at straws, and shouting about pulling in reinforcements of people just as retarded as he is. Folks, I say walk away Star Trek wins, fair and square and without "force powers" that failed in more ways than one.

    If you will excuse me, I'm a little late for my mechanical engineering class.

  18. #3598
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
    Posts
    7,920
    I would like to take this time to post a message about the tragedy that took place at Virginia Tech yesterday... a friend of mine, Ross "Gunner Adderaek" Alameddine, was one of those murdered in cold blooded cowardice before the shooter took his own pathetic life. Ross was a member of the Asero gaming community and was a well mannered, easy going, skilled Natural Selection player. He will be missed by his friends at Asero.

    Despite how heated our own debate here is... there are problems in real life that demand attention. How a tragedy like this could happen is beyond me- after the first two shootings earlier in the day, instead of letting people know what happened and closing the school, the allowed the day to continue. Two hours later, a mere fifteen minutes before the massacre occured, they told students to be on watch for anything suspicious... and even then, when all this was going on, the cops merely stood around waiting for information before they entered the building.

    Perhaps, instead of our own squabbles, we should find a way to prevent such things ever happening again...

    Rest In Peace Ross... you will be missed by many...

  19. #3599
    Registered Member
    Posts
    17
    My sorrows for your loss.

    As to your questions . . . everyone becomes a master of hindsight after a tragic event. But hindsight is an exact science . . . life in the present is not.

    There was an apparent crime of passion. There was a "person of interest" being questioned. It is a vast campus, reportedly the size of a town, with the whole area of the crime scene swarming with officers. No one could've known, and few would've even suspected, what was yet to come in a building across campus. And even had they psychicly suspected an attack was imminent, or alerted everyone in person of the earlier murders, the perpetrator was unknown, and could've walked in plain sight of officers had he wished.

    The crime was methodical, evil, and disgusting in every way. Even the non-religious must long for a Hell on such a day so that people of Cho's kind go there.

    But there is no blame to be placed, except on the perpetrator. No one allowed his crime. And while politicians will now try to politicize this . . . leftists crying for more gun control on a gun-free campus, conservatives clamoring for less . . . the official responses to the acts were virtually above reproach.

    To borrow from one of the two topics of this thread, sometimes you can make no mistakes but still lose. That's not weakness, incompetence, or anything of the sort. It's life.

  20. #3600
    Minister of Technology
    Posts
    4,149
    Quote Originally Posted by DSG2k View Post
    1. You are not the decider of Trek canon.
    2. Reports from those who are the deciders on StarTrek.com do not include StarTrek.com in the list, thus it is illogical to conclude that StarTrek.com is canon.

    See CanonWars.com for more information.
    You are also not the decider of what is canon, though i do have proof that you are thick headed enough to argue with the person who does. However Paramount owns Star Trek and states the show and movies only are canon. startrek.com is run by Paramount and includes only information found in the show or movies. Ergo using it as a source is perfectly acceptable.


    Ah, how nice. You hold fast to the smallest known value, a value known to be illusory, ignoring everything else from the other 27 seasons of Trek plus the rest of that one. How grand.
    It's the only number we are given for shield protective abilities, ever. However you will note that in this case not only did the blast scramble shields, but a second totally blew them off line and inflicted thermal damage. The third shot inflicted serious damage, knocking out weapons, creating hull breaches and injuring crew members.

    Also note that in their first conflict with the borg they could not fire Photon torpedoes out the rear tube after the cube had closed to within 5 km. At this close range a single torpedo could serious dmaage the ship. Yet we see in Wrath of Kahn, Search for Spock. Final Frontier, Undiscovered Country, Generations, and Nemesis, let alone countless episodes that a Photn torpedo is not more powerful than the Hiroshima and Nagasaki events, and in fact are much less powerful.

    We could do the same, you know . . . making hyperdrive far slower than warp, TIE weapons (as seen against asteroids) almost totally ineffectual, and so on. Were it not for our generosity you'd undoubtedly be having a coronary.
    Coronary? Why would I have a coronary. Becuase you would fabricate "evidence" about Hyperdrives. Truth of the matter is you know from Star Wars canon how fast they are. You just have used an amazing amount of obsufication and plain ould bullshit to sweep it under the rug. Then the TIE fighters in the Hoth asteroid belt, it escapes you that Vader wanted the Millenium Falcon intact. What sane fighter pilot would use full power weaponry when agony and death are the price of the least mistake? Occams Razor.


    You do realize that the shields of a Galaxy Class ship would be unable to withstand a single shot from an NX Class ship from 200 years prior by that standard, right?
    You do realize that according to TOS,TNG, DS9, and VOY history the NX-01 never existed. It's an alternate past and a crappy one at that. It violates everything that Roddenberry had already laid down. In fact that one show contradicted each of the other four series contiously, something the other four did not do to each other.

    You don't know what watts and joules are, do you? Besides which, 1.5 megatons is 6.3 million gigajoules.
    I do know what Joules and Wats are. 1 watt second = 1 joule.



    No, I'm not. Reference "I, Borg".
    Oh, so obviously in your mind 5 borg must pilot a small vessel, per se. Couldn't be something like the garbage scow in Alien which had only a slightly larger crew? Also in the scene where Hugh is "rescued" byt the borg, why would the Borg send a small vessel to an area that already cost them a small vessel. The may be reactive, but they try to react with the bigger stick.
    Last edited by TW Scott; 04-17-07 at 10:51 PM.

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