Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Saquist]

Other EU references do label the globes as shield generators, though. Which means the current "official" EU story is that they are both shield generators and sensor domes at the same time.

And Borg ship densities are, incidentally, not small. See "I, Borg."

And the ICS does contradict pretty much everything else... so unless you want to throw out movies, common sense, and/or physics, don't even bother with it.

I've found sources to support that Hukka4Life....One was a simple WIKi

saying:

Sensor globes or shield generators
Geodesic domes located on and around the bridge superstructure of Star Destroyers and related ships have been alternatively portrayed as both sensor globes and shield generators in Star Wars literature.

It appears that these domes were originally intended to be sensor globes, as Richard Edlund, who was in charge of visual effects for Return of the Jedi, described the spheres as "radar domes" in a 1983 interview by Cinefex magazine in which he discussed the demise of the Executor. However, in the movie itself, bridge officers declared that the shields were down after one of these globes was destroyed, leading to confusion among authors of various sourcebooks on the Star Wars universe.

Many reference books such as The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels and The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology label the pair of globes on top of the bridge as "Deflector Shield Generators," while the use of the globes as shield generators is also evident in LucasArts' X-Wing and TIE Fighter computer games, where the shields of a Star Destroyer are knocked out if the two generators above the bridge are destroyed. This strategy is also used during combat against Star Destroyers in Rogue Squadron II: Rogue Leader for the Nintendo GameCube, where the globes are referred to as shield generators - along with the hemisphere on the ship's underside. In the MMORPG, Star Wars Galaxies, the globes are clearly labelled in the targeting system as "Shield" and "Secondary Shield". On the other hand, Inside the Worlds of Star Wars shows the bridge area of the Executor and declares the globes to be sensor globes. However, it also places backup bridge shield generators in the base of the domes as an attempt to reconcile the differing interpretations. The globes are labelled as Shield Generators in Star Wars: Empire at War the pc game. In The New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology the revised technical readout details both types of shield generators and extensive sensor arrays on different parts of the same dome.

While the Wi ki isn't known for it's super accuracy...These are refrenceable source and they are infact true according to the information I've seen so far.

And seeing that they've attempted to reconclie this difference in canon and bring the movie and the EU together...and the fact that the EU still uses them as shield Generators and the most recent game...Empires at War still does... then it seem the nail is in the coffin on the shield generator debate.

Shame on you Sian for not even researching the WIKI...or anything else but that star warst technical commentary....

THAT'S RIGHT I READ THAT TRASH TOO.
The most uncannon crap I've seen which explains the sewage spewing in your post....You used this guys assesment verbatim....Your ARE THE WEAKEST LINK.....

One Word Neutronium
Remember Voy: Think Tank
The Think Tank has tech that could trump anything that star wars has.
Remember Ablative shielding from voy: Endgame it protected against borg attacks for over half an hour using the second densest metal now imagiine what neutronium could do. Also I will copy a Earlier post Q and Borg!!!!!!!!!
In addition Species 8472 had negotiated a peace with the feds voy: In the Flesh

Yes, I concur and the list gets longer when you move into all the movies and Trek in it's entirety...

Also maybe we should pull from furry conflict and clash of the titans

I've always seen the Furry Conflicts on RA's website but I haven't read it...what's it about?

Okay, so we are reduced to relying on Borg, Species 8472 and Q as the only potential dangers to a Star Wars fleet.

hardly the only Threat, just one of many...

Borg do have the ability to increase the ability of their defenses, however their weapon systems are hardly innovative and it takes several second of continuos fire to drain a 375 gigawatt shield system present on the Federation Galaxy class cruiser.

Star Trek Canon has not stated the upper power levels of a Galaxy Class starship.

They are vulnerable to extremely powerful weapons that over load their power grids quickly as in the artificial Solar flare created by the NCC1701-D Enterprise.

Fortuanly Star Wars has nothing with the power of something several millions Degrees Kelvin...

When the Enterprise E arrived there were still several ships operational and the Cube was close to crippled.

True
Inconclussive to Star Wars thresholds of less than the straffing ability of Star Wars fighter craft.

As one Turbolaser is thousands of times more powerful that even the most powerful Federation Phaser array it is foregone conclusion that ISD's will enjoy one shot one kill success against the Borg.

Uncanon:
It actually seems STar Wars doesn't have the technology to penetrate Trek shields effectively...Not that bundles of fire power wouldn't wory eventually...but seeing that the shields aren't based to against fire powere and neither are trek weapons then Star War's has alot to worry about.
They've played the fire power card a hundred years ago...They got over it.

Species 8472 will not enter the fight, they have no reason to. They exist in a paralell universe that has an enviroment that Star Wars would find unappealing. Even if they join the fray they are still easily destroyed by Federation weaponry, Star Wars weaponry would be even more effective.

writers motivation. If I chose to then I will...Hope that I don't.

Q, by definition will not get involved. From their perspective this is a Human versus Human war. It might be entertaining and some individuals might be spared for amusement sake, but over all the Q will sit this out and pop some popcorn (or whatever they snack on)

False..Q has offered to get invovled before...

You've been proven false on several of these topics already.

about the whole exhaust shaft things

Star Trek ships don't HAVE these




anyway, another thing: Photon torps and Q-torps DO track. I have seen one episode where (I believe it was voyager) did an "over the shoulder" shot. That was bloody cool.

LOL...no they don't have exhasust ports that blow the ship up....That's gotta be a strength.

Yess we've seen traking for the mirco torps in DS9 taking out Klingon ships in scores...

As well as the phaser fire in that episode was vaporizing large sections of BoP aswell

The NCC-1701-D Enterprise was third of it's entire model to be produced, there was no refitting done before it's maiden voyage. The class was designed to be the biggest, fastest, most heavily shielded, most well armed and most luxurious Heavy Cruiser to date. It's main function was science and exploration yes, until the Sovereign and Defiant class it was arguably the most powerful class of vessels in the Alpha Quadrant..

True to a point
The War Bird was still much stronger and the Ferengi Maurader was rumored to have twice the power...

The problem stems from the fact that as we all have witnessed Trek Shields are weak, armor practically non existant except on a few classes of star ships, and still it takes several dozen shots form even the most powerful weaponry to critically damage another vessel.

That's a probelm of perception. You think the 400gig is an upper limit and canon does not state that.

The seen in Nemesis is prime example, how many photon torpedoes, phasers and disruptors did it take to render the Enterprise-E effectively helpless?

We don't know true numbers and we don't know the true fire power of the Scimitar so it's irrelevent to bring up. With out a common frame of refrence this entire movie could have been clash of titans....but how would we know? There were no ants to compare them too.

How many dozens of direct hits? And her shields are only considered twice as powerful as the Enterprise D's shields

Sovereigns abilities are only apparent and speculative. We don't know.

Think on this for a moment, your most powerful individual non borg vessel is only using 800 gigawatt shields, sure they recharge faster but how do they deal with a 52,000,000,000 terawatt dicharge that takes place of a 1/15th of a second? That is 65,000,000 more powerful that their shields! Yes you read that right 65 million times!

There is no Star War's Canon which states such a fire power for a turgo laser weapon. Your fondness for speculation has been dully noted...

Now unless you can adress how a Federation vessel can survive a single Heavy Turbolaser that fires a 1/15th of a second pulse 65 million times as much as as a Sovereign class vessels shields can take, there is no reason to continue debate.

Scott stick around all you like I'm sure your fantasy on fiction will tickle somebody...eventually..

Actually SW has tech to track superluminal targets. I know, you say, In ANH, Han Solo said that the Imperial fleet couldn't track him through hyperspace, so SW must not have any FTL sensors. Also, when the Imperial fleet lost the Millenium Falcon in TESB, Vader ordered them to check all possible destinations along their last known trajectory, so they must be incapable of tracking anything at superluminal speeds. right?

I think they can to a point but If you were right then Han should have been expectin the Emprie to show up at Bespin and he wasn't...

It would appear if they do...then it's very very limited...The calucalte trajectories to track targets...Timothy Zahn and the EU writers support the superior canon...

Looks like the Force maybe the only thing that can do tracking of lightyears.

The films actually demonstrate the capability to track objects traveling faster than light. We know the empire has FTL communication technology (Holonet) and FTL sensors. (Detecting objects ahead of you when you're going faster than lightspeed requires it)

And its definitely no tracking...
Hyperspace is a different dimension...ships make the jump to hyperspace by jumping to light speed....It's during the jump...the light speed part that the danger in running into objects becomes risky...

"Well, you can forget your troubles with those Imperial slugs. I told you I'd outrun 'em."

If they couldn't track him, why would Han need to outrun them? This scene ends with their arrival at Alderaan.. so either Han spent extra time evading Imperial detection, (or he would have stepped out of the cockpit much earlier) or the trip from Tatooine to Alderaan (About 40,000 LY according to official maps) takes mere minutes.

Probably was talking about sublight...Hense the fastes hunk a junk in the galaxy thing...

Actually they have a huge one. It's called Shield Frequency Vulnerability.

Actually that's a Borg weakness...not a Star fleet weakness.

we never see torpedoes hit maneuvering targets at much further than point blank range,

True to a point... but star fleet torps tend not to miss.

and we also never see them making more than wide, sweeping turns (though they can go at least 180 in one of these turns) while proton torpedoes have been observed making near right angle, 72,000g turns in ANH

.

If programed to do so then the will be the lauch speed of the torp is usually to great to achieve those changes which is one of the reason it's so hard to avoid torps in the first place for slow, large vessls..

Also these photon torpedoes have matter/antimatter warheads with a stated quantity of 1.5kg of antimatter. Even the theoretical maximum output of a M/AM annihilation (At 100% efficiency) of that size only accounts for just over a 60 megaton explosion, and we never see them produce that powerful an effect on screen.

Forgets the destruction of the Lantree and the torpedos used against the Borg in it's chase scene. The explosions covered a massive part of the 3,040 meter wide surface of the Cube...

You just haven't been looking Sian...they're more common in Trek than Star Wars.

They might if Star Wars's larger fighter craft and gunboats didn't have equivalent firepower to the Enterprise-D, which they do. Slave-1 has demonstrated more firepower, speed, and agility than the mighty Defiant, and on paper, more firepower and reactor output than then Ent-D.

As RA has said more tales from the Uncanon.
Defiant is the stronges ship in SCI FI history with more kills than anyship in SCI FI History..You'll have to do alot better than hearsay and uncanon speculations.

I'm sorry, but Star Wars shielding has been proven on screen to be hull-hugging. Though the field causes some interference outwards from the hull in much the same way as a magnetic or gravitational field drops in power over distance. Star Trek shielding on the other hand has been shown consistently to be globular, and small craft have been known to exploit this combined with other weakness (Ensign Ro, ST:TNG, "Preemptive Strike")

<i>The Enterprise shields have a weak
point... When the ship is at
impulse, the thrust destabilizes
the shield configuration right at
this point.</i>
She maneuvers a small Maquis ship between the Enterprise's warp nacelles and under her shield.

[/QUOTE]

Utterly incredulous SIAN...are you forgettin the part where Worf modulates the shields to let the maquis raider through? Really you do the least amount research you possibliy can..

[Kittamaru]

Thank you Saquist for your support Good to see another mate here who's willing to do research.

Yeah, even I forgot that Worf let that ship in... it is a known weakness that was countered, but in this case they knew it was going to be attempted and let the ship in.

I still think the Enterprise-E and the rest of the fleet would simply warp-strafe the imperial ships to death. After a few hundred torpedo impacts, there wouldn't be much shielding left.

Even in a dead on fight- the enterprise would simple channel their entire phaser capacitor into a single concentrated strike on the bridge. if an A-wing can simply fly into it, i'm sure a high powered, long-sustain phaser bolt would be able to burn thru and bust a hole into the bridge. That may not put the ship out of comission, but the people inside sure would be

At least in Trek the bridge is somewhat protected (no real windows, the viewscreens are all video screens)

[TW Scott]

Thank you Saquist for your support Good to see another mate here who's willing to do research.

Yeah, even I forgot that Worf let that ship in... it is a known weakness that was countered, but in this case they knew it was going to be attempted and let the ship in.

I still think the Enterprise-E and the rest of the fleet would simply warp-strafe the imperial ships to death. After a few hundred torpedo impacts, there wouldn't be much shielding left.

Even in a dead on fight- the enterprise would simple channel their entire phaser capacitor into a single concentrated strike on the bridge. if an A-wing can simply fly into it, i'm sure a high powered, long-sustain phaser bolt would be able to burn thru and bust a hole into the bridge. That may not put the ship out of comission, but the people inside sure would be

At least in Trek the bridge is somewhat protected (no real windows, the viewscreens are all video screens)

Okay first of all, a Federation Class X phaser array is 10.5 gigawatts. As in the same caloric release as 2.52 metric tons of TNT. Take the 12 to 24 strips you find on most vessels and you see a 30.24 to 60.48 ton bomb. While notning to sneeze at in our terms it pitifula insignification compared to ships who can witstand muliple 12.5 gigaton level hits. To put it in simple terms it would take 496,031,746 Phaser X arrays firiring for one full second to provide the same energy output of one Heavy Turbolaser shot. Yes you read that right almost half a billion.

Warp strafing is an option, however unless your target is completely unshielded and not firing back it's not a viable one. The entire 9th feet could engage one Star Destroyer and fire all their weapons at once and the effect would still be negligible. Meanwhile even near misses from turbolaser and Ion cannons would be criplling Star Trek ships.

This is like expecting a 19th century warship to take on a Nuclear Aircraft carrier Battle group.

[TW Scott]

Saquist as for you, I see you continue posting RSA's tweisted interpretation of everything. You have failed to do any research of your own and worse yet, outright lie of Star Trek canon. You can believe anything you want my friend, but it's just called delusion.

[Kittamaru]

Where are you guys pulling these numbers from? I really don't know to be honest... from what I've seen on screen it simply appears star trek would lay some whoopass on star wars.

And Q is still the big wildcard...

[Sian]

Really If this is all you can rebutt then...why didn't you say nothing at all?

Read the previous 167 pages much? You haven't said anything new. Are you getting tired?

Woah, I'm slightly confused.

I was comparing strength of weapons based on the sites study which showed star wars weapons (basing on the max theoretical output of a reactor-powered laser weapon) to be in the mid-gigawatt range. I say reactor-powered because the few shots we see of an ISD's internal circuitry lead me to believe they were simple wires. Wires can only carry so much current at a certain voltage before resistance starts to give in to the law of diminishing returns.

Ah, well there's a problem. Canon sources state gigaton range weapons for capships and kiloton range weapons for fighters in SW. go back through the discussion and you'll find plenty of references. I won't go into it here. Also despite the name, Star Wars does not use laser weapons, blaster technology is much more energetic, and where but in the internal systems of the Falcon have you seen wires?

Though my knowledge of star wars technical specifications is, I will admit, lacking.

Wookiepedia, the Star Wars Technical Commentaries, and the Into the Worlds and Incredible Cross Section books, in that order from least to most reliable are the best resources we have for hard numbers on Star Wars tech.

It is known, though, that Star Trek uses Bio-Neural networks for data transfer and plasma conduits for energy transfer. Phasers are also powered via a capacitor system, though they can be routed with power direct from the warp engines at serious risk of damage.

Why do they need plasma conduits running right underneath the Okudagram controls on the bridge again? I'm just messing with you.

@ Sian- as for the weak spot created by the impulse engines. I conceed, that did exist on the Galaxy class due to the way their engines worked. However, the Sovereign class (Ent-E) was designed to be "subspace friendly" as Voyager and the entire Intrepid class was. This not only removed that glaring weakness, but the addition of auto-modulating shield frequencies and vectored shield arcs helped better protect ships.

Okay, but these systems aren't in place on a significant number of Starfleet's ships by the time of ST: Nemesis. And it will be shown that even that won't be enough to protect adequately against an ISD's firepower.

In TNG, with the galaxy class, it always seemed all the shields were equally affected by weapons fire. This gave the impression that incoming weapons fire was spread out across all the shielding to give the best disappation.

Separate shield arcs were always implied by secondary sources, I see no reason not to assume that they were in use, and Worf was simply giving an overall shield status in his damage reports. No problem.

In Star Trek: Nemesis, it is seen, heard, and shown how the Ent-E's shield arcs were individually powered. Given the manuverability of the sov class, it could possibly manage to avoid taking too much damage to one shield. After all, it's only 750 some meters long. An ISD is what? And a SSD is approaching kilometers if I'm not mistaken?

ISD: 1600m, SSD: about 18km. The trouble is that one salvo from heavy turbolasers is likely to blast right through the shields and pulverize the ship, given that the Ent-D's shields were flattened by a single 400MW plasma blast.

As to the photon torpedo's output, I have to disagree. Given that it's inherently larger than a proton torpedo means that, even if the proton torpedo's detination system WAS far superior, the Federation would simply transport one of the warheads out of a proton torp, analyze it, and integrate the technology into their own weapons. Laser fire would be analyzed, a weakness found, and shields modulated to best protect against it.

how long would that take? The Federation hasn't gotten trans-warp travel right after working on it for nearly a hundred years. And this is technology from a civilization that can cross a galaxy from end to end in days. (which even the Borg can't do) It may as well be the Roman Legion trying to reverse-engineer a B-2 stealth bomber. Sure, they're positive to get some good ideas from it, but they probably don't even have the material tech to replicate the components, much less the scientific understanding.

Given the nature of some of the smaller frigates, I doubt a Star Destroyer would even bother with them... at least until a salvo of micro-quantum torpedoes impacted their bridge

Remember the Star Destroyer bridge design is a well thought-out statement, and that the bridge tower, despite its exposed apearance, is the most well-shielded part of the ship.

I've found sources to support that Hukka4Life....One was a simple WIKi

considering the editing policies of wikis, this needs to be taken with a few metric asstons of sodium chloride.

blah blah snipped.

Star Trek Canon has not stated the upper power levels of a Galaxy Class starship.

Absolutely False. What's wrong, haven't bothered to do even a little research?

TNG: Season 2: the Dauphin

DATA: Sir, sensors indicate the communication originated from a terawatt source on the planet.

RIKER: That's more power than our entire ship can generate.

TNG: Season 6: The Masterpiece Society

HANNAH: Your ship... what kind of energy output is it capable of generating?

GEORDI: We have a matter/antimatter warp reaction system, the most powerful in Starfleet... normally kicks plasma up into the terawatt range... what are you thinking about?

Uncanon:
It actually seems STar Wars doesn't have the technology to penetrate Trek shields effectively...Not that bundles of fire power wouldn't wory eventually...but seeing that the shields aren't based to against fire powere and neither are trek weapons then Star War's has alot to worry about.
They've played the fire power card a hundred years ago...They got over it.

You're so played out on this. Star Wars doesn't need to penetrate Trek shields. a few gigatons would make them crumple like a paper bag against a truck, as proven by Star Trek canon.

As well as the phaser fire in that episode was vaporizing large sections of BoP aswell

Large sections of small, 100 meter frigates. Goodness. Amazing. BoPs aren't exactly impressive warships, so it's not surprising that a battlecruiser-class weaponry would just tear them to pieces.

I think they can to a point but If you were right then Han should have been expectin the Emprie to show up at Bespin and he wasn't...

he thought he'd lost them. He hadn't expected Fett to be such a good tracker. Fett led the empire there, and because Han's primary hyperdrive was at that point out of commission, got there first.

It would appear if they do...then it's very very limited...The calucalte trajectories to track targets...Timothy Zahn and the EU writers support the superior canon...

What's the range in light years of Star Trek superluminal tracking? 25 LY if I recall correctly. Hyperdrive has demonstrated speeds in excess of 10 million c. Not much time to track a target! About a half second, actually. That 'very limited' superluminal sensor capability has to still be at least in the range of 1500ly, 2 orders of magnitude greater than Starfleet's. It is known that the Empire has superluminal communication over tens of thousands of light years. You have to understand, that the difference between superluminal communications and superluminal sensors is very small. It's related technology. Radio leads quickly to Radar.

And its definitely no tracking...
Hyperspace is a different dimension...ships make the jump to hyperspace by jumping to light speed....It's during the jump...the light speed part that the danger in running into objects becomes risky...

you're wrong by so many sources it's not even funny. even the wikis. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperspace
now who should be mocked for lack of research? Realspace objects have a presence in hyperspace. this is the whole reason that Interdictor cruisers work, as they project a large gravity well that not only prevents escape, but can pull ships out of hyperspace due to their collision avoidance safeties (which require superluminal sensors to see in front of them) kicking in.

Probably was talking about sublight...Hense the fastes hunk a junk in the galaxy thing...

Ignoring movie canon again. if you recall, the Falcon was having trouble outrunning the ISDs near Tatooine.. Han clearly implies that the Falcon can outrun their pursuers in hyperspace.

Luke: Why don't you outrun them? I thought you said this thing was fast.
Han: Watch your mouth, kid, or you're going to find yourself floating home. We'll be safe enough once we make the jump to hyperspace. Besides, I know a few maneuvers. We'll lose them. Here's where the fun begins.

True to a point... but star fleet torps tend not to miss.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DRm0RfUGkS4

:46, 1:15, 1:32, 1:35
Unless the target is any significant distance away.. or maneuvering in a gentle turn. Or running in a straight line. if they're evading, forget about it.

As RA has said more tales from the Uncanon.
Defiant is the stronges ship in SCI FI history with more kills than anyship in SCI FI History..You'll have to do alot better than hearsay and uncanon speculations.

As I said before, RSA is the only person I know of who has been told by both Lucasfilm Licensing and Paramount that he is wrong about Canon in each respective universe. Please continue to reference his addled ravings in your arguments. Defiant strongest ship in Sci Fi history? *LAUGHS* It's a monitor! a gunboat! I won't deny that it's an excellent warship in its universe, but come ON. So you're saying that the Defiant would crush the Enterprise-E?

Utterly incredulous SIAN...are you forgettin the part where Worf modulates the shields to let the maquis raider through? Really you do the least amount research you possibliy can..

Worf exploited a weakness! one of many. wow.

Where are you guys pulling these numbers from? I really don't know to be honest... from what I've seen on screen it simply appears star trek would lay some whoopass on star wars.

And Q is still the big wildcard...

Reference manuals (Which are canon by LFL policy) and movie visuals which, contrary to what Saquist wants you to believe, do not disprove them. Seriously, the Empire (not even counting the other factions in the SW galaxy) consists of millions of inhabited worlds, and has hundreds of thousands of ISDs, not to mention other warships both larger and smaller. Even if they were individually less powerful than Star Trek vessels, (which they aren't, by a far margin) they could ram a 1 mile ISD into each and every Star Trek warship and still have thousands left over. It has multigigaton weaponry (the Entperprise D's total phaser array output is about 7 megatons per second with photon torpedoes in the 30 megaton range), the ability to traverse the galaxy in hours to days, the ability to annihilate fully shielded planets with superweapons, or render them unsuitable for all life in hours with their warships..

As far as the Q continum, their power is not limitless, as one of them even admitted, just far, far in excess of 26th century humanity. Plus they'd be unlikely to get involved in what they would likely see as just another civil war between humans. if you pull in the Q, I'll have to pull in the Ang-Ti Monks, and nobody wants that. *wink*

[Sian]

Sensor globes or shield generators
Geodesic domes located on and around the bridge superstructure of Star Destroyers and related ships have been alternatively portrayed as both sensor globes and shield generators in Star Wars literature.

It appears that these domes were originally intended to be sensor globes, as Richard Edlund, who was in charge of visual effects for Return of the Jedi, described the spheres as "radar domes" in a 1983 interview by Cinefex magazine in which he discussed the demise of the Executor. However, in the movie itself, bridge officers declared that the shields were down after one of these globes was destroyed, leading to confusion among authors of various sourcebooks on the Star Wars universe.

Many reference books such as The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels and The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology label the pair of globes on top of the bridge as "Deflector Shield Generators," while the use of the globes as shield generators is also evident in LucasArts' X-Wing and TIE Fighter computer games, where the shields of a Star Destroyer are knocked out if the two generators above the bridge are destroyed. This strategy is also used during combat against Star Destroyers in Rogue Squadron II: Rogue Leader for the Nintendo GameCube, where the globes are referred to as shield generators - along with the hemisphere on the ship's underside. In the MMORPG, Star Wars Galaxies, the globes are clearly labelled in the targeting system as "Shield" and "Secondary Shield". On the other hand, Inside the Worlds of Star Wars shows the bridge area of the Executor and declares the globes to be sensor globes. However, it also places backup bridge shield generators in the base of the domes as an attempt to reconcile the differing interpretations. The globes are labelled as Shield Generators in Star Wars: Empire at War the pc game. In The New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology the revised technical readout details both types of shield generators and extensive sensor arrays on different parts of the same dome.

Oh, i've got you on this one. Even if Johnny Cochrane were still alive he wouldn't be able to get you out of this lie.

If you would do even basic research, you would know that Star Wars canon policy from the holocron states:

C-canon is primarily composed of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.

S-canon is secondary canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the online roleplaying game Star Wars: Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.

N-canon is non-canon. "What-if" stories (such as stories published under the Star Wars: Infinities label), game stats, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered official canon by Lucasfilm.

The Essential Guides are C-canon, which contains a lot of stuff! Generally newer works in C canon are taken over contradicting older C canon, and C Canon that directly references the G canon of movies is generally taken as high-C. Into the Worlds stands with its cutaway description of the sensor globes with secondary shielding.

Games are at BEST C canon, and then ONLY in plot and storyline matters. and game STATS, statistics, and gameplay elements, like those magic testicles that allow a single fighter to destroy an ISD, are N, or NON-CANON. You. Definitively. Lose.

[Sian]

I still think the Enterprise-E and the rest of the fleet would simply warp-strafe the imperial ships to death. After a few hundred torpedo impacts, there wouldn't be much shielding left.

I'm glad to have someone who doesn't lie and distort facts in this discussion. Welcome.

Warp-strafing has a problem.. nobody's ever been seen doing it. they always drop out of warp, if only briefly, to fire. And in warp, well, fight maneuvering is stressful on the ship. The Picard maneuver is a short warp to point blank range. The Elaan of Troyus event involved clearly sublight closing speeds, so either the Enterprise and the Klingon ship were at warp, or there was something else going on.

Even in a dead on fight- the enterprise would simple channel their entire phaser capacitor into a single concentrated strike on the bridge. if an A-wing can simply fly into it, i'm sure a high powered, long-sustain phaser bolt would be able to burn thru and bust a hole into the bridge. That may not put the ship out of comission, but the people inside sure would be

The A-Wing flew into the Executor's bridge after a concentrated barrage from the rebel fleet dropped her forward deflector screens. The canon sequence of events is as follows: (From Into the Worlds: Star Wars Trilogy)
*Akbar orders the fleet to concentrate fire on the command ship.
*Executor's shields fail. Opportunistic fighters swoop in to strafe critical command tower features, such as the sensor domes that allow the warship's many guns to fire in coordination.
*Piett orders an intensification of forward firepower to screen the fighters.
*an A-Wing crashes into the unshielded bridge.

So can the Enterprise match the firepower of the Rebel Fleet at Endor? (20+ Mon Cal cruisers, 10+ Nebulon frigates, numerous smaller ships)

I encourage you to try and read as much of the previous pages of the thread as you can stand. Much of this has been addressed before.

[Saquist]

Thank you Saquist for your support Good to see another mate here who's willing to do research.

Yeah, even I forgot that Worf let that ship in... it is a known weakness that was countered, but in this case they knew it was going to be attempted and let the ship in.

Way! Dude....You're tottally the reinforcements here I've been holding off twiddle Dee and Dumb Twiddle for on my own here for a while...I've got them ont he ropes,too...going for the kill.

I still think the Enterprise-E and the rest of the fleet would simply warp-strafe the imperial ships to death. After a few hundred torpedo impacts, there wouldn't be much shielding left.

Entirely possible....Imperial vessels are huge and cumbersome...Unfortunatnly Warp strafing would have to be done in open space away from planets and star systems.

Even in a dead on fight- the enterprise would simple channel their entire phaser capacitor into a single concentrated strike on the bridge. if an A-wing can simply fly into it, i'm sure a high powered, long-sustain phaser bolt would be able to burn thru and bust a hole into the bridge. That may not put the ship out of comission, but the people inside sure would be

I believe Alpha Strike to be very effective against Imperial shielding.

[QUOTE=TW Scott;1323302]Okay first of all, a Federation Class X phaser array is 10.5 gigawatts. As in the same caloric release as 2.52 metric tons of TNT. Take the 12 to 24 strips you find on most vessels and you see a 30.24 to 60.48 ton bomb. While notning to sneeze at in our terms it pitifula insignification compared to ships who can witstand muliple 12.5 gigaton level hits. To put it in simple terms it would take 496,031,746 Phaser X arrays firiring for one full second to provide the same energy output of one Heavy Turbolaser shot. Yes you read that right almost half a billion. So we're chosing to ignore the obvious firepower and complete number brought to us by canon about how much of the Borg vessel the Enterprise put out of commision in a single shot and instead you're looking "Where"? For those figures....

Boy! after that hole 5 pages on canon....you can imagine I'm not surprised. I know you'd do anything to win this debate.

Warp strafing is an option, however unless your target is completely unshielded and not firing back it's not a viable one. The entire 9th feet could engage one Star Destroyer and fire all their weapons at once and the effect would still be negligible. Meanwhile even near misses from turbolaser and Ion cannons would be criplling Star Trek ships.

Unsubstaniated and Uncanon...
In other words your opinion

Saquist as for you, I see you continue posting RSA's tweisted interpretation of everything. You have failed to do any research of your own and worse yet, outright lie of Star Trek canon. You can believe anything you want my friend, but it's just called delusion.

You calling RA twisted is like saying you're a Saint. And yet we have firm Foundation for 5 lies on your part....Two of which were considerable...

Your Statement of Defiant as the FASTEST VESSEL in Star Fleet.
If you recalled you insisted and insisted that your numbers were right untill you saw the "cherry picked" quote from DS9 "The Sound of Her Voice"

LIe 2
You Statement on the existance of a Light anti Fighter Battery next to Theed Hanger that took down the Naboo fighter. You never even watched you were so lazy...You just lied and lied untill it was painfuly obvious you had swalled your own tongue.

The obviousness of the truth in your lies reveals you even realies that those pitiful tanks bring down a fighter with sub kiloton canon burst was the chech mate you didn't see coming...

That's why you lied... So you have no position to be lobbing bricks at RA who obviously thinks before he speaks unlike yourself tangled in your lie-web

Where are you guys pulling these numbers from? I really don't know to be honest... from what I've seen on screen it simply appears star trek would lay some whoopass on star wars.

And Q is still the big wildcard...

I don't know...they talk canon when they want to stop you but don't use it for there own numbers....Of course it's biased they couldn't see a propper examination if it hit them between the eyes

Read the previous 167 pages much? You haven't said anything new. Are you getting tired?

Yep but I've got my 28th wind so I'm good!

Ah, well there's a problem. Canon sources state gigaton range weapons for capships and kiloton range weapons for fighters in SW. go back through the discussion and you'll find plenty of references. I won't go into it here. Also despite the name, Star Wars does not use laser weapons, blaster technology is much more energetic, and where but in the internal systems of the Falcon have you seen wires?

No canon sources state those ranges.
Lasers are canon. It's been used in Superior Canon.

Wookiepedia, the Star Wars Technical Commentaries, and the Into the Worlds and Incredible Cross Section books, in that order from least to most reliable are the best resources we have for hard numbers on Star Wars tech.

And yet the Wookiepedia speaks truth with refrences and you don't...Like I didn't see your wookiepedia coming. HAAAAAAAAAAAA HA!!! HA!! HA!!! HA!!! Everyone falls back on that tired excuse... And it's true...sometimes...what you must do...which you won't is prove that it's wrong. Because you can't...
Shucks!!!! Star Wars.com is the biggest lie of them all and you fools continue to refrence that!

Okay, but these systems aren't in place on a significant number of Starfleet's ships by the time of ST: Nemesis. And it will be shown that even that won't be enough to protect adequately against an ISD's firepower.

Yeah the FAKE firepower we never see...That's a real worry..

ISD: 1600m, SSD: about 18km. The trouble is that one salvo from heavy turbolasers is likely to blast right through the shields and pulverize the ship, given that the Ent-D's shields were flattened by a single 400MW plasma blast

.

The 400 gig thing...is a maybe but most like not.


The best Thing about Trek...is that in five years it would have moved beyond your Sad Speeds with slipstream and transwarp....and War's will still have Hyperspace.

Remember the Star Destroyer bridge design is a well thought-out statement, and that the bridge tower, despite its exposed apearance, is the most well-shielded part of the ship.

Seeing as a couple of X wings and two A wings took the shield generates out...I'm feeling for the rest of the ship.

Absolutely False. What's wrong, haven't bothered to do even a little research?

TNG: Season 2: the Dauphin

DATA: Sir, sensors indicate the communication originated from a terawatt source on the planet.

RIKER: That's more power than our entire ship can generate.

TNG: Season 6: The Masterpiece Society

HANNAH: Your ship... what kind of energy output is it capable of generating?

GEORDI: We have a matter/antimatter warp reaction system, the most powerful in Starfleet... normally kicks plasma up into the terawatt range... what are you thinking about?

Yeah communications...we're hepless now..
And the Nith Degree has the Enterprise witthstanding 2.0 terrawatt burst

You're so played out on this. Star Wars doesn't need to penetrate Trek shields. a few gigatons would make them crumple like a paper bag against a truck, as proven by Star Trek canon.

Then its a good thing they have no gigaton weapons.

Large sections of small, 100 meter frigates. Goodness. Amazing. BoPs aren't exactly impressive warships, so it's not surprising that a battlecruiser-class weaponry would just tear them to pieces

.

Those Frigates would get shreaded alive..

you're wrong by so many sources it's not even funny. even the wikis. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperspace

Now you're using Wiki...is not the wiki a piece of crap?

now who should be mocked for lack of research? Realspace objects have a presence in hyperspace. this is the whole reason that Interdictor cruisers work, as they project a large gravity well that not only prevents escape, but can pull ships out of hyperspace due to their collision avoidance safeties (which require superluminal sensors to see in front of them) kicking in.

I've seen no evidence to suggest what you say is so...
Statements of guilt must meet the burdeon of proof.

Ignoring movie canon again. if you recall, the Falcon was having trouble outrunning the ISDs near Tatooine.. Han clearly implies that the Falcon can outrun their pursuers in hyperspace.

Luke: Why don't you outrun them? I thought you said this thing was fast.
Han: Watch your mouth, kid, or you're going to find yourself floating home. We'll be safe enough once we make the jump to hyperspace. Besides, I know a few maneuvers. We'll lose them. Here's where the fun begins.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DRm0RfUGkS4

How does that prove anything? Looks like Luke has more common sense that you do...

As I said before, RSA is the only person I know of who has been told by both Lucasfilm Licensing and Paramount that he is wrong about Canon in each respective universe. Please continue to reference his addled ravings in your arguments. Defiant strongest ship in Sci Fi history? *LAUGHS* It's a monitor! a gunboat! I won't deny that it's an excellent warship in its universe, but come ON. So you're saying that the Defiant would crush the Enterprise-E?

More Hearsay? And trusting you is easy to do because your'e beautiful...NOT.
Enterprise E hasn't shown the fire power of the Defiant. It is canon that Defiant has take sucessfully twice a 4,000 meter long Neghvar and a 3,000 meter long Jem'Hadar criuser with complete sucess. You may eat the egg that is on you face...

Enteprise had problems destroying the Scimitar....And you think the Defiant would have failed...It's the one ship that should've been able to do it...DUH! Defiant displays a potential for at LEAST 10X the fire power of a Galaxy class starship....A monitor...what an idiot...

(the Entperprise D's total phaser array output is about 7 megatons per second with photon torpedoes in the 30 megaton range),

says who? you?...HA ......NO...

As far as the Q continum, their power is not limitless, as one of them even admitted, just far, far in excess of 26th century humanity. Plus they'd be unlikely to get involved in what they would likely see as just another civil war between humans. if you pull in the Q, I'll have to pull in the Ang-Ti Monks, and nobody wants that. *wink*

You're just pissing and crying right now....

[Saquist]

I'm glad to have someone who doesn't lie and distort facts in this discussion. Welcome.

Feel free to believe that the Star Trek technical manuels are canon despite the fact you've been proven wrong by Marco Palmeiri himself...

I presume that's still stinging...as you still act as though you're in shock of the discovery...You've nothing else to fall back on....and it's sad how you keep returning to your defecation and vomit to consume it. It's...dog like...

Warp-strafing has a problem.. nobody's ever been seen doing it. they always drop out of warp, if only briefly, to fire. And in warp, well, fight maneuvering is stressful on the ship. The Picard maneuver is a short warp to point blank range. The Elaan of Troyus event involved clearly sublight closing speeds, so either the Enterprise and the Klingon ship were at warp, or there was something else going on.

Must not have seen a single episode of the original series.

The A-Wing flew into the Executor's bridge after a concentrated barrage from the rebel fleet dropped her forward deflector screens. The canon sequence of events is as follows: (From Into the Worlds: Star Wars Trilogy)Akbar orders the fleet to concentrate fire on the command ship.
*Executor's shields fail. Opportunistic fighters swoop in to strafe critical command tower features, such as the sensor domes that allow the warship's many guns to fire in coordination.
*Piett orders an intensification of forward firepower to screen the fighters.
*an A-Wing crashes into the unshielded bridge.

Superior canon does not allow for the interpretation...sorry Sian fantasy world apart of Universal studios Florida but you're on an extend visit.

So can the Enterprise match the firepower of the Rebel Fleet at Endor? (20+ Mon Cal cruisers, 10+ Nebulon frigates, numerous smaller ships)

Enterprise exceeds the firepower of the ISD just in it's Borg encounter and int the Lantree encounter...You're just...so sad...you just don't want to admit the truth that the Enterprise has displayed incredible fire power.

I encourage you to try and read as much of the previous pages of the thread as you can stand. Much of this has been addressed before.

I feel priveledge to clash with you with the information you never considered and to prevail against you and prove that Star Wars has no such firepower...You live in world that defies description Sian, you're trailing in the Wong wake and you can't see what's a head of you. meanwhile everyone looking head and seeing the truth that for some reason few have seen in the star wars details...

It's immensely entertaining everytime I bring a truth and your eyes roll back and keel over...then you wake up the next day with no recolection of ever hearing it.

[Saquist]

Oh, i've got you on this one. Even if Johnny Cochrane were still alive he wouldn't be able to get you out of this lie.

I'm still 0 for 17 on the lie meter...but keep trying....

If you would do even basic research, you would know that Star Wars canon policy from the holocron states:

From the holo cron? I've never need to know the canon policy..but as soon as you post a link...I'll compare it with what you've placed here. Nothing personal but you're shady and I don't trust a thing you say.

C-canon is primarily composed of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.

S-canon is secondary canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the online roleplaying game Star Wars: Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.

N-canon is non-canon. "What-if" stories (such as stories published under the Star Wars: Infinities label), game stats, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered official canon by Lucasfilm.

I'll story that away for later use.

In a 2001 "Ask the Jedi Council" response by Steve Sansweet (director of fan relations) and Chris Cerasi (an editor for Lucas Books at the time), it was stated that:

"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves — and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film's production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies

You see I understood canon...better than you Sian...
I've been right all along....A lie...no..it's only the truth that can be that bright. Have a seat...

[Kittamaru]

Actually, warp drive DOES work very near to planets- after all, Starbase 001 federation HQ appears to be a mere few hundred KM from earth (if not much closer) and ships have been seeing warping to and from that before (a good example is when Kirk stole the Ent-A I believe it was)

As for transwarp- transwarp drive itself is not the problem. it's simply that, at that speed, the sheering forces on a ship would tear it apart Something is mentioned about how Scotty's sabotage of the USS Excelsior saved her crew I believe. Not sure though.

Warp strafing is entirely possible- look at when the Ent-D was chased by a borg cube after Q initiated the encounter. They are firing, granted, rearward facing torpedo tubes. In most (if not all) star trek games where warp speed is a usable tactical element, you are able to fire torpedo weapons while warping. Dunno if games by Activision count as cannon though.

The big threat I see here is the empires reliance on unshielded TIE Fighters. I don't believe the Interceptor or Bomber have much in the way of shielding either. It seems it takes but one or two hits to down them- even an X-Wing, once the shields are down, are easy targets. Given the tracking ability of a phaser burst (the fact that the ship itself has no real need to manuver so long as one of the arcs can face the target) then Star Wars fighter craft are in serious trouble. That and look at the nebula class- it's exterior mount is able to field some interesting special abilities. My favorite, though it's a sub-cannon source (Star Trek: Armada 1 and 2) is the Point Defense Phaser. It's easy to imagine a 21st century tech making it into Star Trek, and the ability to detonate torpedoes at a safe distance would prove very helpful.

Yuhzan'vong doval basins are an interesting problem. However, I think they could be countered by an inverted graviton pulse from the main deflector dish (eg, technobabel here :P The weird things Geordi has come up with still surprise me sometimes)

As for detonating a planet, I thought of something. The Enterprise-E simply has to do a long-sustain phaser burst to drill a single hole thru to the center of said planet. After that, simply drop in some subspace weapon (like the Son'a have) and watch the fireworks

Another techno-twist is metaphasic shielding, as was used on the Enterprise-D to hide from hostile vessels in a stars corona. I would presume such an intense radiation source might give Star Wars vessels a small problem as their sensors have been rendered useless from the EM fields created in asteroid belts. Not sure though*shrug*

The Q may get involved, if only Q himself- remember, he can stop TIME and he owes Picard big time- after all, Picard saved his miserable little life when he was stripped of his powers Whether he'll hold up his promise to re-pay picard is another story... and i doubt he'd let Janeway die He loves her too much

As for warp being slow- remember, you can manuver in warp. I dont' think you can in hyperspace. That and there is the slipstream drive that some ships are having installed. And artificial wormholes (these seem to be more accidents than anything though)

Finally there's the multi-vector attack ships- these would be fun to see. I doubt if they'd be able to pull the stunts I envision (you see the Ent-D flying along, turbolaser fire comes in toward the middle, saucer separates and the two halves go on either side of the incoming firepower ) but it'd be funny to see none the less. On a more serious note, don't forget the ionic disruption the Ent-D used on the borg when they rescued Locutus (I think it was an ionic disruption... what exactly WAS the saucer section spitting out?)

[Saquist]

Actually, warp drive DOES work very near to planets- after all, Starbase 001 federation HQ appears to be a mere few hundred KM from earth (if not much closer) and ships have been seeing warping to and from that before (a good example is when Kirk stole the Ent-A I believe it was)

As for transwarp- transwarp drive itself is not the problem. it's simply that, at that speed, the sheering forces on a ship would tear it apart Something is mentioned about how Scotty's sabotage of the USS Excelsior saved her crew I believe. Not sure though.

Warp strafing is entirely possible- look at when the Ent-D was chased by a borg cube after Q initiated the encounter. They are firing, granted, rearward facing torpedo tubes. In most (if not all) star trek games where warp speed is a usable tactical element, you are able to fire torpedo weapons while warping. Dunno if games by Activision count as cannon though.

The big threat I see here is the empires reliance on unshielded TIE Fighters. I don't believe the Interceptor or Bomber have much in the way of shielding either. It seems it takes but one or two hits to down them- even an X-Wing, once the shields are down, are easy targets. Given the tracking ability of a phaser burst (the fact that the ship itself has no real need to manuver so long as one of the arcs can face the target) then Star Wars fighter craft are in serious trouble. That and look at the nebula class- it's exterior mount is able to field some interesting special abilities. My favorite, though it's a sub-cannon source (Star Trek: Armada 1 and 2) is the Point Defense Phaser. It's easy to imagine a 21st century tech making it into Star Trek, and the ability to detonate torpedoes at a safe distance would prove very helpful.

Yuhzan'vong doval basins are an interesting problem. However, I think they could be countered by an inverted graviton pulse from the main deflector dish (eg, technobabel here :P The weird things Geordi has come up with still surprise me sometimes)

As for detonating a planet, I thought of something. The Enterprise-E simply has to do a long-sustain phaser burst to drill a single hole thru to the center of said planet. After that, simply drop in some subspace weapon (like the Son'a have) and watch the fireworks

Another techno-twist is metaphasic shielding, as was used on the Enterprise-D to hide from hostile vessels in a stars corona. I would presume such an intense radiation source might give Star Wars vessels a small problem as their sensors have been rendered useless from the EM fields created in asteroid belts. Not sure though*shrug*

The Q may get involved, if only Q himself- remember, he can stop TIME and he owes Picard big time- after all, Picard saved his miserable little life when he was stripped of his powers Whether he'll hold up his promise to re-pay picard is another story... and i doubt he'd let Janeway die He loves her too much

As for warp being slow- remember, you can manuver in warp. I dont' think you can in hyperspace. That and there is the slipstream drive that some ships are having installed. And artificial wormholes (these seem to be more accidents than anything though)

Finally there's the multi-vector attack ships- these would be fun to see. I doubt if they'd be able to pull the stunts I envision (you see the Ent-D flying along, turbolaser fire comes in toward the middle, saucer separates and the two halves go on either side of the incoming firepower ) but it'd be funny to see none the less. On a more serious note, don't forget the ionic disruption the Ent-D used on the borg when they rescued Locutus (I think it was an ionic disruption... what exactly WAS the saucer section spitting out?)

Theory:
Star Fleet has mapped and forcasted solar and planetary activity in order to allow exit and entrance jumps into the system and Earth's vicinity. Space Dock serves as a Space traffic control tower to allow entrance ...Earth's system is unsually large...Several thousand AU's distance and to travesre this at impulse would be a long time indeed.


Star Fleets test in the 23rd century were a complete failure...they don't explain why but there are multiple theory's.

Trek shields are confirmed to be able to with stand far more heat than Star Wars before sub coming to the hull temperatures. Metaphasic shields is just a plus.

The saucer was firing anit matter burst to obscure the shuttle from the Borg sensros...a distraction

[Kittamaru]

Antimatter bursts? *shrug*

True... but the enterprise-E entered at random and sorta went max warp towards the borg cube at the battle of worf (some numbers I don't remember)

[TW Scott]

Saquist again claiming that everyone but him lies. See in his poor mind Paramount canon lies becuase it argues with what he KNOWS to be truth. By extension he does not understand Star Wars canon becuase it is more complex than 'See Kirk fight shirtless.' He claims I deliberately lied, when if fact I did claim one of the statements was an honest mistake. Of course he ignores the fact that he deliberately lied, but I just won't go there.

Saquist is desperately trying to get everyone to ignore Canon, ignore honest Observation, and ignore the creators of the two worlds in question. He wants everyone to believe Star trek will win becuase he says so, becuase that is how writers would write it. He has provided no mathematical proofs, logical proofs, or evidence that has survived even the briefest scrutiny.

Here is some facts backed by respective canon's.
-Defiant class vessel is one of the fastest vessels in the Federation. The original prototype sufferd a minor flaw, but the production model did not.

-Heavy Turbo laser are 12.5 gigaton equivalent weapons

-Turbolasers may be named Lasers but that is much Like a Phaser Rifle being called a Rifle.

-Galaxy Class Shields are completely screwed over by a 400 GW blast

-Galaxy Class vessels produce less than 2 Terrawatts

-Photon Torpedoes have a maximum theorhetical yeild of 64 megatons, but have never displayed more that a few hundred tons.

-Borg exhibit limited Strategic and Tactical ability

-Q are capricious creatures who are as likely to harm their friends as help them

-Star Wars Thermal Detonators, no bigger than a large man's fist, are 4 kiloton weapons

-Jedi can move black holes

-The Federation lost the concept of Ground Forces and support weaponry between TOS and TNG and never gained it back

[Kittamaru]

Voyager's Elite Force were rather good ground pounders mate

That and I believe the Intrepid and Norway are both faster than the Defiant and have better range. The defiants small size limit's it's effective range.

Thermal detonators are nice, yes. But there is the isokimetric (spelling?) detonator (the thing Worf used in Insurection)

[grimlockprime]

Has anyone given any thought to the fact that the Alliance/Jedi and the Federation are normally peace fairing and negotiators by nature? They would simply have a meeting of the minds, integrate each others forces to stand against the evils of the universes. Then the bad guys of each story, Sith/Empire/Borg/Hirogen/Jem Hadar ect.... would probably NOT get along and there would be one long bloody ass fight between and among themselves much less against the Alliance/Federation.

[Sian]

Has anyone given any thought to the fact that the Alliance/Jedi and the Federation are normally peace fairing and negotiators by nature? They would simply have a meeting of the minds, integrate each others forces to stand against the evils of the universes. Then the bad guys of each story, Sith/Empire/Borg/Hirogen/Jem Hadar ect.... would probably NOT get along and there would be one long bloody ass fight between and among themselves much less against the Alliance/Federation.

If the Rebel Alliance/New Republic made first contact with the Federation instead of the Empire, well.. that would be different, but perhaps not as interesting. They'd probably find the Federation to be useful and motivated, willing manpower once they've installed needed power, propulsion, shielding and weapon upgrades.

Anyway it's fun watching certain posters try to writhe and twist around the facts and pretend he isn't beaten.

[TW Scott]

Voyager's Elite Force were rather good ground pounders mate

But according to Paramount Canon they do not exist.

That and I believe the Intrepid and Norway are both faster than the Defiant and have better range. The defiants small size limit's it's effective range.

Intrepid is 4th ranked in Warp and second is only Average in Impulse speed the Defiant class beats it in both and in fact in Impulse beats almost everything with a .975c

Thermal detonators are nice, yes. But there is the isokimetric (spelling?) detonator (the thing Worf used in Insurection)

Are you kidding that was nowhere remotely close to 4 kilotons.

[Saquist]

[QUOTE=TW Scott;1324368]Saquist again... [QUOTE]

YES!!! Again...Saquist has proved you wrong.

He claims I deliberately lied,

Let's Review....

Saquist said on Page 149
Did the Trade Federation Tank JUST HAPPEN to fire on the NABOO figher before it's shields were up?

TWScott

That was a turret air defense weapon, not a tank. It mounted Light Turbolasers, you remeber those right?

And....yes...that could have been a mistake if you had just looked it up or said that you didn't know for sure afterward but you went on!!!
I showed you this picture....Clearly a tank next to Theed Hanger... You can even see the tank firing from inside the hanger as the fighters are lifting off...They knew!!! there was a tank out there...The tank wasn't keeping a secret...

when if fact I did claim one of the statements was an honest mistake.

It was a LIE...You never looked...and you insisted OVER and OVER again like you knew...and you didn't....It was a Lie....

The picture clearly shows a Tank firing at those N-1 fighters. No question.
[IMG][/IMG]

But you weren't done...you proceed to conjure up what can only be described as a lie..

TWSCOTT

Oh, so you admit to being a liar and a fraud, alright, nice shot by the way completely ignoring the fact that as we all plainly saw in the movie that the shot that took down the fighter came from the OTHER side of the hangar. The same Turret that took potshots art Anakin when he flew out.

What turret, Scott? Did you ever see a turret? Or were you just making the turret up? There was no mistake here. But you continued...

TWSCOTT
[

B]Then again you might remember that the Main Gun on a Federation Tanks is a Star Fighter's Laser canon. Which is why they are feared so much. However this did not occur to you at all.[/B]

Really?! We never saw that but actually quite the opposite.. We see all those weapons from the tank strike ground...nary a signle mega or kiloton explosion.

But-it-doesn't-stop-there...

TWSCOTT

You say now that the shots came from the left side of the hangar, right? This is of course as we are over and behind the hangar. The problem is that in the shot you show the Tanks are on the RIGHT side of the hangar from that perspective. Yeah I admit I got caught red handed telling the truth.

You couldn't even save face by admitting you were lying. And now you're lying again saying that you weren't lying when...

A. you accused me of lying on this issue.
B. That "the other side" of the hanger was actually your attempt slip out of the lie from your perspective
C. Then actually lied about telling the "truth" when you were caught red handed.


Obviously I don't trust a thing you say...because it wasn't the first time. You recall the Defiant top speed incident?

And you keep it up...Like everyone here is stupid and can't see what you're doing...It's like you're a little kid. This is a lesson you should have learned long ago...

It's wrong to lie.
When you lie it harms your credibility. No one will trust.
But most importantly if you make a mistake...say so. So that there is no denying that the mistake was unintentional. NEVER persist in a lie. Come clean and be honest...own up to what you've done.

What you're honest with in least you will cling to that honesty in important issues

Of course he ignores the fact that he deliberately lied, but I just won't go there.

Because while I've been here I've never lied and that's a vow. This discussion isn't worthy of even a white lie...I wouldn't and would never lie to win such a silly arguement.

Saquist is desperately

... trying to get you to see that morals are important to every discussion.

He wants everyone to believe Star trek will win becuase he says so, becuase that is how writers would write it. He has provided no mathematical proofs, logical proofs, or evidence that has survived even the briefest scrutiny.

At this point I'm just a voice. My word has been as good as it has given. I've shown you all the truth and my own perspective and I've cleanly divided the line between them...I can represent myself Scott...I don't need your oratory skills nor the reputation you've built so far.

-Heavy Turbo laser are 12.5 gigaton equivalent weapons

No canon representation....Now I can confidently say "NO CANON Source."

-Turbolasers may be named Lasers but that is much Like a Phaser Rifle being called a Rifle

.
If you show a source. This would be a minor fact. But we've established that the minor fact here is that George Lucas calls them lasers and that is Canon...

-Galaxy Class Shields are completely screwed over by a 400 GW blast

That too is no a fact an no where in canon does it suggest that a weapon merely yield 400 gigwatts of fire power would disable Enterprise's shields.

-Galaxy Class vessels produce less than 2 Terrawatts

I haven't reviewed all of canon to contest this.

-Photon Torpedoes have a maximum theorhetical yeild of 64 megatons, but have never displayed more that a few hundred tons.

Theory is not fact. Nor is the source of this information canon.

-Borg exhibit limited Strategic and Tactical ability

I'd have to agree with that...

-Q are capricious creatures who are as likely to harm their friends as help them

And what does that prove? That they have an agenda of there own.

-Star Wars Thermal Detonators, no bigger than a large man's fist, are 4 kiloton weapons

Also uncanon...per the recent information we've just uncovered...We've never seen a termal Detonator detonated...

-Jedi can move black holes

-The Federation lost the concept of Ground Forces and support weaponry between TOS and TNG and never gained it back

Also uncanon ignoring many battles such as the Retake of Betazed and AR-558

What I've learned about you so far Scott is that you lie when you can get away with it. Everyone else can see that for themselves...they don't need me to convince them of it.