03-08-07, 08:17 AM #3321
I'm elated you're actually giving up...excellent.
Recall that I told your that if you offered even a shred of proof that an Artoo unit has ever taken control of a fighter from a pilot?
Yes...you must recall because you never found one.
That means that the fighters are no where near a match for a Federation starship in any amount of numbers.
Artoo's direct hits...
No canon rebutal there either. And while you're obviously capable of posting visuals you obviously are too lazy to do so. So you hand that one two me too.
And it looks like you wanted to make your stand on Star Trek Canon Policy. Flapped your gumms about what was canon or quasi canon...and you had to be set straight. Didn't know quite as much as you thought, did you? Silence afterwards confirmed that you were humbled by greater knowledge...and the stand you were planning on taking...never happened.
As well as the Galaxy Class Starship to vaporize hundreds of tons of alloy metal in an instant. Nothing to say on that front either...Why? because it's canon and it out classes a Imperial Star Destroyer several fold...which means Wong's numbers are incredibly wrong or the Galaxy is boasting power we never knew...turnabouts fair play right Sian? It's canon...
How much twisting am I doing now?
Lets keep it up. The movie clearly show that fighters flew through the Executors shields to hit targets which in the moivies are implied to be shield generators...movie is superior canon to all else and contradiction can included what is included....
As a result canon inisist that they are shield generators, movie prevails despite the original design plans. There fore since small shielded ships can manuver through shields of large ships so can an even smaller shielded object...a torpedo...
Further evidence shows that Jaina and Jagged Fel and Kyp Durron would frequently overlap their shields in what were called in the New Jedi Order "shield trio's showing that shields do not conflict with shields.
That combined with the Millenium Falcon's landing on the control tower of the Star Destroyer Avenger after it's shields went up is a clear indication that small objects such as live grutchins, fighters, and large freighter clearly are not repelled by Star Destroyer shields. And there seems to be consensus in the EU that proton torpedoes don't strike shield but actually strike hull bypassing shields.
In Timothy Zahns book Spectre of the Past and Visions of the future several republic fighter and bombers preformed a tactial manuver on a Star Destroyer. The fighters drawing their fire and the bombers penetrating like an arrow to the star Destroyer and the making their escape. This damaged the ship it's self and not the shields...I' believe this is the Chimera herself...In this case it was strategy on strategy.
The EU as I've said before clearly outlines that the ships use lasers and not a particle beam or plasma weapon...The Vong using Plasma geysers on the star destroyer repeated pummled them with broad sides...
The entries do not show there was anything special about the plasma and the Star Destroyers showed a resistance to that plasma but that it was the one time I noted that something was steadily wearing down a star destroyer's shields.
Defiant using contained warp plasma with it's rapid phaser nadion effect combined with the layering that occurs right before it is relased is obviously a more extensive weapon than spewing geyers...Defiant therefor has proven it's effectiveness aswell against the Imperial Star Destroyer class.
PS...Jan...the EU repeated refers to the Star Destroyer as an Imperial Class star destroyer not the Imperator class star destroyer. I know because as I was going through books and highlighting ships I wanted to use in the novel they refered in Dark TIDE II NJO the Right to Rule as one of two Imperial class Star Destroyers of Grand Admiral Pellaeon that had dropped in to save the day.
I think on the whole here we have a significant different between design and story. The writters and movies seem to going by a different set of rules and I doubt any of them consulted the ICS books to show they're dedication to them as canon books.
In Law there are what are termed Legal Prescendents. Even though they are not actual laws in many cases they establish what was is allowed. In cases where there is law the presence of a legal prescedent allows for acknowledgement that a law can be circumvented for some reason or by the allowance of Law Enforce in failure to uphold the law.
The EU has thus established a consistent Prescendent of bypassing the ICS books established fire power ratings. Sian due to your lack of reliance of canon in the face of these Prescendents I can only concluded that it is permited that Star Wars can be viewed in this fashion. You have a ICS based understanding of Star Wars while I've interrogated the actual occurences and it is clear that the authors and the movies have felt free to disregard what can only be considered by you as "LAW". However the movies are actually the Lay of the Star Wars universe making the ICS judgments substandard. I believe I have what I need to construct a fair representation of both sides...shields, weapons, ranges and speed.
03-08-07, 03:47 PM #3322
03-09-07, 08:42 AM #3323
No, you just forgot my previous example. Remember in the Zahn trilogy where Artoo flew Luke's Xwing all by himself and saved moisture-boy's ass?
Control markers are not the equal for a base line example. I asked for an example where the pilot is present. Not a solo flight. Now you understand where you have fallen short.
The visuals. Artoo is clearly hit once, by the second bolt that passes his dome. There is no explosion from he first shot, just a green glow from the passing bolt. how can you be THIS stupid?
Images show two bolts strike Artoo's dome, dead on. The flash radiates into smoke from the first strike illistrating a puncture and not a shield effect.
Not only that, Lord Nyax, we have numerous examples of singular laser strikes doing more damage from glancing and direct hits.
The Y-Wing: Rises above the trench. A glancing blow on the outboard side of the nacelle severs the nacelle and the ship blosoms into a fire ball. No shields present.
X-Wing: in the Trench recives tracing fire to his rear fuselage. two strike or one volley destroys the fighter into a fire ball. No shields present.
X wing: recieves direct hit on Port Dorsal engine. The engine glows white and sparks issue forth...this registers as a strike and a shield hit. The ship survives temporarily.
Lukes Fighter: Receives a direct hit to the Artoo Unit...to strikes. No shield effect. Fighter survives Artoo damaged. No damage to the fighter.
Y-Wing vs TIe Fighter: In the trench No Y-wing displays an ability to survive a single shot from a tie fighter suffering complete destruction and Artoo surives two direct hit...
This implies that fighter weapons rely on hitting a crittical system and Artoo was not a critical system or in other words a destructive system. It also means that shield or no shield a critical hit is a critical hit.
Also exemplified by Jaina's second wing mate being struct by a single volley from a coralskipper and instantly blosoming into an unexpected fireball.
Star War's relys on the glancing not critical blow hit. There's be no sign of this splintering effect (non canon terminology) or that shields make the sole difference between life and death.
Strawman. I know Star Trek canon policy, and how the Tech Manuals are used by those who write Trek canon.
how much metal? what was the composition of the metal? How many seconds did it take? I doubt 'an instant'.
Your argument is nonsensical.
I told you and Sian if you strip away the away Star Trek's refrences and proceeded strictly to canon. Star Wars loses the Fire Power struggle by lightyears simplely because canon to canon lasers and star trek don't mix.
Tons. As usual.
If your perceptions are flawed here imagine where else you're not seeing clearly.
The movie didn't show fighters flying through the shields. The movie didn't show any shield interactions at all there. The movie didn't imply they were shield generators. When do your lies stop?
This is a matter of perspective at the very least...But lie, no. I can and will rely on the implication of the movie process. Contradiction by omission is a direct contradiction in this case.
Canon insists they're sensor domes with local shield projection vanes on them to help protect them because they're sensitive, delicate, and critical equipment. This is from ITW, and not contradicted by the movie, therefore, CANON.
By offering your schematic evidence you only offere contradiction.
You imply that the story boarding process was done incompetently
You imply that the writers progressed the series of events out of chronological order
You imply that the writers placed the emhasis and subject incorrectly after the results of the combat on the previous scene.
You placing these implications based off a schematic....
The movie was directed with out the source material you and Jan are relying on. Just with Star Trek writers and directors using refrence material Lucas film has stated that contradictions to the movies becomes UNCANON. This is so such an occasion.
You stated more implicitly rather than provide proof that this is not a contradiction. While I'm sure the vehemence of your intentions does you some credit it is not proof, it is not evidence, nor example, nor illistrating. It is merely implicit and thus irrelevant.
Jan...too. I understand that you see this as not a contradiction. Yet story telling has accord in one way for years...An effect proceeding the cause and such a view can result in a myriad of interpretations. I'm not in search of interpretations to the movie canon. The special Edition did not correct what your and Sian are relating to mistakes in the canon. As a result I have no choice but to comprehend the process which took place in the movie was exactly what the director and writters intended to be protray to the viewer.
Last edited by Saquist; 03-09-07 at 11:52 AM.
03-09-07, 11:38 PM #3324
Originally Posted by Episode VI
Last edited by Sian; 03-09-07 at 11:40 PM. Reason: fixed bad quote formatting =(
03-10-07, 01:00 PM #3325
Other EU references do label the globes as shield generators, though. Which means the current "official" EU story is that they are both shield generators and sensor domes at the same time.
And I hate to break it to you, but Brian Young's asteroid destruction shots turn out to be flak bursts. No asteroid exists before the turbolaser bolt shows up and explodes.
And Borg ship densities are, incidentally, not small. See "I, Borg."
And the ICS does contradict pretty much everything else... so unless you want to throw out movies, common sense, and/or physics, don't even bother with it.
03-10-07, 01:02 PM #3326
03-10-07, 04:08 PM #3327
why star trek wins
One Word Neutronium
Remember Voy: Think Tank
The Think Tank has tech that could trump anything that star wars has.
Remember Ablative shielding from voy: Endgame it protected against borg attacks for over half an hour using the second densest metal now imagiine what neutronium could do. Also I will copy a Earlier post Q and Borg!!!!!!!!!
In addition Species 8472 had negotiated a peace with the feds voy: In the Flesh
* Quarks Fluid Filter sensors
* Force Fields
* Telapathic Comunication system
* Isomorphic Projection
* Bionetic Implants
* Decentralized power systems
* Quantum Epitaxy
* Photon, Quantum, and Transphasic Torpedos
* Pulse Phase Cannon
* Quantum Phaser array
* Shield Inverter Beam
* Multi-Phasic Deflector Cannon
* Redundant Shield grids
* Cloaking Devise
* Bio-Regenerative Hullskin*
* Ablative hull armor
* Regenerative shield
* Neutronium Alloys
* Subspace Envelopment
* Transwarp drive
* Hyper-impulse drive
* Multi-Field Warp Drive
* Actuated Landing Gear*
* Hyperspace Gate
03-10-07, 04:24 PM #3328
Another thing The doctor on voyager's intelligence+ replicators+ unmanned Fighter= ownage
03-10-07, 04:25 PM #3329
03-10-07, 05:09 PM #3330
03-10-07, 05:50 PM #3331
03-10-07, 05:53 PM #3332
Also maybe we should pull from furry conflict and clash of the titans
03-10-07, 09:43 PM #3333
Okay, so we are reduced to relying on Borg, Species 8472 and Q as the only potential dangers to a Star Wars fleet.
Borg do have the ability to increase the ability of their defenses, however their weapon systems are hardly innovative and it takes several second of continuos fire to drain a 375 gigawatt shield system present on the Federation Galaxy class cruiser. They are vulnerable to extremely powerful weapons that over load their power grids quickly as in the artificial Solar flare created by the NCC1701-D Enterprise. Even despite these advatages a fleet of no more than 24 Federation ships is more than a match for a Cube as proved by first contact. When the Enterprise E arrived there were still several ships operational and the Cube was close to crippled. As one Turbolaser is thousands of times more powerful that even the most powerful Federation Phaser array it is foregone conclusion that ISD's will enjoy one shot one kill success against the Borg.
Species 8472 will not enter the fight, they have no reason to. They exist in a paralell universe that has an enviroment that Star Wars would find unappealing. Even if they join the fray they are still easily destroyed by Federation weaponry, Star Wars weaponry would be even more effective.
Q, by definition will not get involved. From their perspective this is a Human versus Human war. It might be entertaining and some individuals might be spared for amusement sake, but over all the Q will sit this out and pop some popcorn (or whatever they snack on)
By the way I am not saying that as genre Star Trek is bad. In fact it is one of the best Sci-fi series of all time. It helped birth some greatest TV shows and movies and only a fraction of them Star Trek. It is just in a total war situation that the Star Wars galaxy is just going to win. One would not expect that Ancient Samurai could compete with modern day SEALS, nor would we expect a Trebuchet to compete with Howitzer. One does not ask a gunpowder to do what Semtex can. It does not mean any of them were weak, it's just a different level of development.
03-10-07, 11:43 PM #3334
03-11-07, 03:32 PM #3335
You guys forget.
The EnterpriseD, which was the galaxy, was an EXPLORATION vessel. It was re-fit before launch for a long term exploration (10 years I believe)
Other galaxy class ships (Like the USS Galaxy, lost in the Dominion war) were re-fit with better weaponry.
Then there's the Galaxy-X class (again, Deep Space Nine) that had the heavy Phaser type A, which had an EMP type effect on ships systems (like the Ion cannon). It also simply blasted a hole (in one shot If I remember right) thru a Klingon Neg'Vhar class battleship.
The Enterprise-E is a near-pure battlecruiser (yes, only a battlecruiser). The Federations Battleships include:
TOS: Yorktown, Excelsior, Proxima, plus their upgraded Refits
TNG: Ambassador class, Galaxy Class, their refits, the Prometheus class, and one I cannot remember
The federation ALSO had absolutely HUGE carriers that are mentioned only a handful of times in the series. Games like Armada 2 have ship models made by the public to bring these ships to the games. Such carriers had the capacity to make their own fleets of construction vessels, support ships, fighters, frigates, and even some made cruisers.
As far as fighters, do not forget:
Class 9 and 12 shuttles
the Peregrin Heavy Assault Fighter
As far as weaponry, do not forget the power of the photon and quantum torpedos, as well as romulan Plasma torpedos, the MIRV photon torpedo, micro torpedos (such as the defiant used), and then the TriCobalt devices used on steamrunner class ships. Also, though they do not condone using them, the Federation DOES have a small number of subspace weapons... I doubt even the might Death Star would survive being sucked out of time and space.
Yes, the force is problematic- but with a few million people swarming around him (starship crews are NOT small by any standard) even Vader would have issues keeping track of who's doing what.
There are also small, fast ships. The Enterprise-E did some fancy flying when fighting the Scimitar in Nemesis. Ships like the USS-Defiant (from Deep Space Nine), the Akira class torpedo boat, and small frigates like the Norway class would prove worthy adversaries to the Rebel and Imperial skipper-boats and other large non-capital vessels. The federations fighters and even the Bre'el class bird of prey that the klingons use would be worthy adversaries of the X-wing and TIE fighters. Their shields are a lot more powerful, they are somewhat slower, but they are able to deal damage from more angles (phaser arrays can fire from mostly any angle)
Star Wars relys on destroyable turrets to deal damage they can't see. Star Trek uses angular phaser arrays to deal damage, which are harder to destroy. Also, star trek shields are far tighter against the hull than in Star Wars, making it nearly impossible for small fighters to enter the shield area and exploit weaknesses.
Star Trek ships, at least a majority of them, have at least some form of armor.
It would be an interesting battle... but I have to say that I think Star Trek would eventually prevail. The only thing Star Wars has that'd be a real big issue is the Force... it'd be interesting to see how Vulcans and the Borg deal with such a power.
Oh, one last thing.
The federation has a few Projectile weapons left, and the klingons have quite a few of them. I doubt that Star Wars shields are designed to protect against that (hence why they try NOT to fly thru asteroid fields)
After all... look at Star Trek: First Contact. Though it was just a hologram, those bullets killed two borg drones just the same
Last edited by Kittamaru; 03-11-07 at 03:40 PM.
03-11-07, 04:45 PM #3336
Star Trek ships don't HAVE these
anyway, another thing: Photon torps and Q-torps DO track. I have seen one episode where (I believe it was voyager) did an "over the shoulder" shot. That was bloody cool.
Photon torps are also much larger than proton torps- an X-wing is not too much larger than the pilot itself (maybe a multiplier of 10x larger?). A photon TORPEDO is the SIZE of a person and then some (I believe they are roughly 1.5x the length and bredth of a standard human male, according to the visual in Wrath of Khan when they fired Spock from a photon tube inside a modified photon torpedo capsule)
Thus a photon torp has far more room, is far larger, and can hold far more explosive than a proton torp.
And a Q-torp is a bigger, badder, better photon torp with better ways of initiating the explosion (seven dimensional zero-point clean vacuume)
I have to say this seems relatively accurate- he brought up a good point though. The inability of Star Wars ships to detect ships at Faster than Light speeds makes them VERY susceptible to "warp strafing". The Enterprise-E would simply warp past a star destroyer and pop off a half dozen Q-torps and a dozen photon torps (1 Q-torp rapid launcher and a few Photon torp burst launchers)
Last edited by Kittamaru; 03-11-07 at 05:22 PM.
03-11-07, 09:38 PM #3337
The NCC-1701-D Enterprise was third of it's entire model to be produced, there was no refitting done before it's maiden voyage. The class was designed to be the biggest, fastest, most heavily shielded, most well armed and most luxurious Heavy Cruiser to date. It's main function was science and exploration yes, until the Sovereign and Defiant class it was arguably the most powerful class of vessels in the Alpha Quadrant..
As for the HUGE carriers you mention, they only exist in that game are not part of Star Trek canon, even slightly.
The problem stems from the fact that as we all have witnessed Trek Shields are weak, armor practically non existant except on a few classes of star ships, and still it takes several dozen shots form even the most powerful weaponry to critically damage another vessel. The seen in Nemesis is prime example, how many photon torpedoes, phasers and disruptors did it take to render the Enterprise-E effectively helpless? How many dozens of direct hits? And her shields are only considered twice as powerful as the Enterprise D's shields which can be taken down by a mere 400 gigawatts. Think on this for a moment, your most powerful individual non borg vessel is only using 800 gigawatt shields, sure they recharge faster but how do they deal with a 52,000,000,000 terawatt dicharge that takes place of a 1/15th of a second? That is 65,000,000 more powerful that their shields! Yes you read that right 65 million times!
Now unless you can adress how a Federation vessel can survive a single Heavy Turbolaser that fires a 1/15th of a second pulse 65 million times as much as as a Sovereign class vessels shields can take, there is no reason to continue debate.
03-12-07, 03:53 AM #3338
The films actually demonstrate the capability to track objects traveling faster than light. We know the empire has FTL communication technology (Holonet) and FTL sensors. (Detecting objects ahead of you when you're going faster than lightspeed requires it)
"Well, you can forget your troubles with those Imperial slugs. I told you I'd outrun 'em."
If they couldn't track him, why would Han need to outrun them? This scene ends with their arrival at Alderaan.. so either Han spent extra time evading Imperial detection, (or he would have stepped out of the cockpit much earlier) or the trip from Tatooine to Alderaan (About 40,000 LY according to official maps) takes mere minutes.
Though considering the speed of the Falcon, they could have been out of detection range so quickly the Imperial operator thought it impossible, and assumed a cloaking device instead.
Also these photon torpedoes have matter/antimatter warheads with a stated quantity of 1.5kg of antimatter. Even the theoretical maximum output of a M/AM annihilation (At 100% efficiency) of that size only accounts for just over a 60 megaton explosion, and we never see them produce that powerful an effect on screen.
<i>The Enterprise shields have a weak
point... When the ship is at
impulse, the thrust destabilizes
the shield configuration right at
She maneuvers a small Maquis ship between the Enterprise's warp nacelles and under her shield.
03-12-07, 09:35 AM #3339
20 meter asteroid, dumbass
, which Bryan Young has correctly calculated would need 250 TJ minimum to vaporize.
Do the math yourself or sit down and plug it.
though with your record of deliberately misinterpreting the visuals,
Stop trying to use Darkstar's ridiculous fake numbers
Dark-what?! make sense.
Every time you go back to him you just end up looking stupider
Also, the borg cubes are not solid metal, as is obvious to anyone. There is a ton of open space inside and out, and there's no way that anyone with a brain would consider that to be solid metal, unless you consider a soda can to be a solid cylinder of aluminum.
Indubitably my dear dumby. The ever enemy to progress...
Even more elementary is the higher concentration of metallic mass in every square meter of a Borg Cube. The Borgs dedication to effieciency
necessitates that the total volume of the area destroyed is higher than that of a ship it's equivalent size. Keep up now.
ITW is not contradicted. You are incorrectly assuming that the globes are shield generators. It is never stated that they are. The domes explode and the controller declares that the bridge deflector shield is down.[/QUOTE]
It's called Drawing conclusions from context and it's acceptible to do in movies.
Really If this is all you can rebutt then...why didn't you say nothing at all?
03-12-07, 10:45 AM #3340
Woah, I'm slightly confused.
I was comparing strength of weapons based on the sites study which showed star wars weapons (basing on the max theoretical output of a reactor-powered laser weapon) to be in the mid-gigawatt range. I say reactor-powered because the few shots we see of an ISD's internal circuitry lead me to believe they were simple wires. Wires can only carry so much current at a certain voltage before resistance starts to give in to the law of diminishing returns.
Though my knowledge of star wars technical specifications is, I will admit, lacking.
It is known, though, that Star Trek uses Bio-Neural networks for data transfer and plasma conduits for energy transfer. Phasers are also powered via a capacitor system, though they can be routed with power direct from the warp engines at serious risk of damage.
@ Sian- as for the weak spot created by the impulse engines. I conceed, that did exist on the Galaxy class due to the way their engines worked. However, the Sovereign class (Ent-E) was designed to be "subspace friendly" as Voyager and the entire Intrepid class was. This not only removed that glaring weakness, but the addition of auto-modulating shield frequencies and vectored shield arcs helped better protect ships.
In TNG, with the galaxy class, it always seemed all the shields were equally affected by weapons fire. This gave the impression that incoming weapons fire was spread out across all the shielding to give the best disappation.
In Star Trek: Nemesis, it is seen, heard, and shown how the Ent-E's shield arcs were individually powered. Given the manuverability of the sov class, it could possibly manage to avoid taking too much damage to one shield. After all, it's only 750 some meters long. An ISD is what? And a SSD is approaching kilometers if I'm not mistaken?
As to the photon torpedo's output, I have to disagree. Given that it's inherently larger than a proton torpedo means that, even if the proton torpedo's detination system WAS far superior, the Federation would simply transport one of the warheads out of a proton torp, analyze it, and integrate the technology into their own weapons. Laser fire would be analyzed, a weakness found, and shields modulated to best protect against it.
And, remember, the Federation has (well... I guess at this point had) Scotty and Geordi.
Given the nature of some of the smaller frigates, I doubt a Star Destroyer would even bother with them... at least until a salvo of micro-quantum torpedoes impacted their bridge
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