Star Wars vs Star Trek

[OpteronGuy]

Even if Arrakis is a disadvantage that can be offset by the prescient abilities of, let's say Maud'Dib or Leto II. Either of them could simply peer into the future to know when and how the attack is going to be and from that setup a defence force. Also in the Dune uiniverse each house is known for having it's own hoarde of spice that they kept. These actually do come into play in the books after the third one when all the worms die on Arrakis. The Great Houses were still able to sustain themselves for a few hundred years.

The shield thing is where the "rules" would come into play. Since none of us has setup the parameters for this galactic battle, none of us could say one way or another what would happen.

Not having shields doesn't mean a ship would be shot down in a shot or two. This is shown in both ST and SW.

[Nasor]

Not having shields doesn't mean a ship would be shot down in a shot or two. This is shown in both ST and SW.

Actually, I think the SW movies do indicate that it only take a shot or two to destroy an unshielded ship. The Return of the Jedi they show a star destroyer that has had its shields brought down but is apparently otherwise undamaged being completely destroyed by two shots. Also, Han made a comment to the effect of "Our shields are down - one more it and we're done for!" while feeling from a star destroyer in the Falcon.

[OpteronGuy]

Ok, I'll give you that, although in the Falcon scene, isn't that said after they have already taken some hits without shields(correct me if I'm wrong)? With small fighters I can see one or two hits taking them out. I don't remember that scene from Return of the Jedi, been awhile since I've seen the movies.

So alas I think we have comem to a spot where, the answer to the question basically comes down to how the parameters of the rules are setup. Agreed?

[Roman]

This is a major strategic disadvantage for the Dune universe. They have a single planet that they absolutely cannot afford to lose, which means a large percentage of their fleet is always going to be tied up defending it. Destroying Corosant or Earth would be bad for the SW or ST universes, but it wouldn't mean the complete collapse of their civilization.

That would be true, but the time frame we're talking about (no-ships and Matres) is very far in the future. The Tleilaxu found a way to develop grow synthetic spice, and Rakis (what was Dune) was torched by Matre ships.

In the Dune universe, there are atmoics called stone burners (they were in the book where Maud'Dib loses his eyesight) which, when detonated, can burn to the core of a planet and cause catastrophic damage.

There was a point in Dune history where mankind became slaves to technology, and then there was the Butlerian Jihad. The reason the Dune universe doesn't use thinking machines is because humans can do the same thing, and when machines are used, humanity faces a really big threat. The Ixians did develop an engine that could fold space without a Navigator, as seen in the last two books where the Matres flew no-ships, and the Matres had no need for spice.

Yes, we need to resolve the issue between Holtzman generators, lazguns, and the Holtzman effect in relevance to the ST and SW universes.

If lazguns=blasters, then a blaster shot (or turbolaser) striking a shield would result in an explosion in both the turbolaser and shiled generator. If, however, all shields and weapons are unique, then lazguns would not be stopped by Imperial shields, I'd think.

[OpteronGuy]

That would be true, but the time frame we're talking about (no-ships and Matres) is very far in the future. The Tleilaxu found a way to develop grow synthetic spice, and Rakis (what was Dune) was torched by Matre ships.

In the Dune universe, there are atmoics called stone burners (they were in the book where Maud'Dib loses his eyesight) which, when detonated, can burn to the core of a planet and cause catastrophic damage.

There was a point in Dune history where mankind became slaves to technology, and then there was the Butlerian Jihad. The reason the Dune universe doesn't use thinking machines is because humans can do the same thing, and when machines are used, humanity faces a really big threat. The Ixians did develop an engine that could fold space without a Navigator, as seen in the last two books where the Matres flew no-ships, and the Matres had no need for spice.

Yes, we need to resolve the issue between Holtzman generators, lazguns, and the Holtzman effect in relevance to the ST and SW universes.

If lazguns=blasters, then a blaster shot (or turbolaser) striking a shield would result in an explosion in both the turbolaser and shiled generator. If, however, all shields and weapons are unique, then lazguns would not be stopped by Imperial shields, I'd think.

Christ, what can I say.. Roman.. You covered everything that I hadn't thought about, Kudos!. Still.. I think some ground rules need to be laid before we start this momentus galactic battle.

[Roman]

It's great to finally meet another Dune fan. I read the series years ago, but they had a profound effect on my young, impressionable mind.

I have a tendency to say that Star Wars would win, as they have a larger, older galaxy, more advanced tech and a greater number of individuals than either the Trek or Dune universes.

Did Dune or Trek have any infantry to match the might of Star Wars?

We should also define what it means for one side to "win," as burning planet after planet with no-ships and atomics would be pretty easy to do.

I'm going to go see Blade III right now, but when I get back, I'll work on drawing up a list of defining stuff like winning, defeat, what is or is not included in the Universes (the Fedaykin died 1000's of years before the no-ships became usable, Darth Maul and Luke would not be in the same time frame, etc), as well as alliances, etc.

Thanks, OpteronGuy, for reviving this thread AND championing an appearant underdog.

[Roman]

Alright, here are the parameters I have so far:

Universes include all inhabitants, technology, and resources. I was thinking that perhaps we should have everything set in an agreed upon timeframe for each universe, but that would be unsatisfactory, since Darth Maul, Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker should all get to fight together against Spock, Kirk and Picard.

This breaks all kinds of temporal rules, but we shant worry about them. Anything more would be too comlicated, though a clone trooper army+imperial army +Jedis would be ridiculous (or the sum of all spaceships ever made in any of the universes? nuts).

Conditions for victory:
Blasting, shelling, nuking until one side capitulates or runs out of forces.

For determining the outcome of this galactic war, let's just have it as a sum of who wins the most battles. The outcome for a battle can simply be a sum game where we compare two similar things from each universe (Paul Atreides vs. Luke Skywalker, Fedaykin vs. Clone Troopers, etc.) and then determine who over powers who.

Problems:
The temporal problem is the greatest. For instance, does Young Anakin get to be part of the Star Wars forces along with Vader, or just one?
I propose that we simply take the most powerful, and use him (Atreides after gaining prescience, Vader as Vader, Obi-Wan when he was young).

Technological crossovers are the second greatest.
The problem being mostly shields & weapons.
Proposal:
I don't have anything. We could just make arbitrary decisions, which is how we have to do it.

Determining a winner.
How? Until everyone's dead?

Factions.
The Empire and Jedi don't like each other, nor do the Sith and Jedi. The Harkonnens and Atreides, Romulans and Vulcans, all hate eachother. There would be a potential that these factions would realign outside of their universe to defeat their opposing faction.
Solution:
Everyone fights for their universe, despite their cultural feelings.


Alright, I'm hungover and need sleep.

[OpteronGuy]

Thanks, OpteronGuy, for reviving this thread AND championing an appearant underdog.

Anytime Roman. I, like you, went and saw a movie tonight (Oceans 12, pretty good too) and am not even going to undertake your post about parameters. I will say this, so far they look pretty good. Ok, it's 3AM and time for bed as I have to work in the morning! :ugh:

[OpteronGuy]

It's great to finally meet another Dune fan. I read the series years ago, but they had a profound effect on my young, impressionable mind.

Thanks! I've loved Dune for a long time. Frank Herbert, in my eye, is one of the greatest writers ever.

I have a tendency to say that Star Wars would win, as they have a larger, older galaxy, more advanced tech and a greater number of individuals than either the Trek or Dune universes.

I'm not to sure here. I know that by the time Chapterhouse takes place Dune is in year 15,000 (roughly around there). I've never looked to deep into the timeline of Star Wars. Enlighten me perhaps? And as for Star Trek, they are what.. 2300 or so? To me they seem like the underdog.

Did Dune or Trek have any infantry to match the might of Star Wars?

Here I would have to say yes. At one time the Emperor had the Sardaukar which we all know were nothing more than ruthless killing machines. Once Leto II becomes Emperor however the Sardaukar are repleced with his Fish Speakers. Between the SW guys and Sardaukar or the Fish Speakers I would have to give it to the Dune guys. Now the problem enlies with how many Sardaukar and Fish Speakers there were. This is one thing that Frank Herbert never tells us directly but lets us know through certain parts of the books. In God Emperor during the Siaynoq ceremony there are thousands upon thousands Fish Speakers here, yet they are only reps for their each individual battalion. So in sheer numbers, who knows. However in killing talent I would give it to the Dune guys.

We should also define what it means for one side to "win," as burning planet after planet with no-ships and atomics would be pretty easy to do.

Agreed

I'm going to go see Blade III right now, but when I get back, I'll work on drawing up a list of defining stuff like winning, defeat, what is or is not included in the Universes (the Fedaykin died 1000's of years before the no-ships became usable, Darth Maul and Luke would not be in the same time frame, etc), as well as alliances, etc.

How was Blade 3? Agreed on the second half.

And if I didn't have to go to work :ugh: I would reply to the second thread dealing with the parameters/rules. Alas I will before the day is out!

[OpteronGuy]

Alright, here are the parameters I have so far:

Universes include all inhabitants, technology, and resources. I was thinking that perhaps we should have everything set in an agreed upon timeframe for each universe, but that would be unsatisfactory, since Darth Maul, Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker should all get to fight together against Spock, Kirk and Picard.

Agreed.

This breaks all kinds of temporal rules, but we shant worry about them. Anything more would be too comlicated, though a clone trooper army+imperial army +Jedis would be ridiculous (or the sum of all spaceships ever made in any of the universes? nuts).

Yeah.. The more I think about it the more complicated things get.

Conditions for victory:
Blasting, shelling, nuking until one side capitulates or runs out of forces.

For determining the outcome of this galactic war, let's just have it as a sum of who wins the most battles. The outcome for a battle can simply be a sum game where we compare two similar things from each universe (Paul Atreides vs. Luke Skywalker, Fedaykin vs. Clone Troopers, etc.) and then determine who over powers who.

It took me a minute to get what you are trying to say here, but I see what you are saying now. I think that would work out. Although if things become way heavily lop sided we might want to re-think this and go over the aspects of it to make sure we haven't left something out that gives one side a greater advantage than the other.

Problems:
The temporal problem is the greatest. For instance, does Young Anakin get to be part of the Star Wars forces along with Vader, or just one?
I propose that we simply take the most powerful, and use him (Atreides after gaining prescience, Vader as Vader, Obi-Wan when he was young).

I agree with the most powerful as well. It'll just make things alittle easier on us.

Technological crossovers are the second greatest.
The problem being mostly shields & weapons.
Proposal:
I don't have anything. We could just make arbitrary decisions, which is how we have to do it.

I think we should go through and pick which armaments<sp?> from each Universe to use. IE: Does the Holtzman effect get used between shields and lasers? Are we going to let the Death Star destroy whole planets? And to be honest I can't relly think of anything... To me they seem to be the farthest behind in Tech.

Determining a winner.
How? Until everyone's dead?

Um.. I guess. Hell I'm in the air about this one as well.

Factions.
The Empire and Jedi don't like each other, nor do the Sith and Jedi. The Harkonnens and Atreides, Romulans and Vulcans, all hate eachother. There would be a potential that these factions would realign outside of their universe to defeat their opposing faction.
Solution:
Everyone fights for their universe, despite their cultural feelings.

Agreed.

Alright, I'm hungover and need sleep.

Good times!

[Nasor]

It seems obvious (to me, anyway) that the different races in each ‘universe’ have developed different technologies. The people in SW, ST, and Dune all set about to create energy shields, and came up with different technological solutions for doing it. The inhabitants of the ST universe developed shields that work by warping sub-space around a ship. The people in the Dune universe developed shields based on the Holtzman effect. The people in the SW universe presumably developed shields based on some other technology. It’s the same with weapons, starship drives, and everything else. Everyone’s shields are capable of protecting them from damage by everyone else’s weapons – to the extent that they’re able – and everyone’s weapons are capable of damaging everyone else – again, to the extent that they’re able. So, for example, federation ship’s weapons can damage an imperial star destroyer, and vice versa – but the fact that imperial weapons are many time stronger than federation weapons means that the federation ship will probably lose.

Since the ships in Dune don't have shields of any sort, they would seem to be at a terrible disadvantage.

[OpteronGuy]

It seems obvious (to me, anyway) that the different races in each ‘universe’ have developed different technologies. The people in SW, ST, and Dune all set about to create energy shields, and came up with different technological solutions for doing it. The inhabitants of the ST universe developed shields that work by warping sub-space around a ship. The people in the Dune universe developed shields based on the Holtzman effect. The people in the SW universe presumably developed shields based on some other technology. It’s the same with weapons, starship drives, and everything else. Everyone’s shields are capable of protecting them from damage by everyone else’s weapons – to the extent that they’re able – and everyone’s weapons are capable of damaging everyone else – again, to the extent that they’re able. So, for example, federation ship’s weapons can damage an imperial star destroyer, and vice versa – but the fact that imperial weapons are many time stronger than federation weapons means that the federation ship will probably lose.

Since the ships in Dune don't have shields of any sort, they would seem to be at a terrible disadvantage.

My thing here is, how can we gauge who's weapons would be stronger? For all we know a Star Destroyers weapons might not be able to blast through the ablative armor on a ST ship. Or it could rip right through. Vice versa for other Universes. As the great Zap Branagen<sp?> once said... "Kif, we have a kanundrum!"

[Nasor]

My thing here is, how can we gauge who's weapons would be stronger? For all we know a Star Destroyers weapons might not be able to blast through the ablative armor on a ST ship. Or it could rip right through. Vice versa for other Universes. As the great Zap Branagen<sp?> once said... "Kif, we have a kanundrum!"

Fortunately there are books for both the ST and SW universe that give exact numbers for the power of Federation and Imperial weapons. According to the published figures, a volley from a Star Destroyer's heavy turbo-lasers would be equivalent to getting hit by about 3000 photon torpedoes. That's pretty consistent the fact that the SW universe is thousands of years older than the ST universe, and so presumably much more technologically advanced. Check earlier in the thread for the exact numbers. You can also compare them by looking at the destructive effects that the weapons demonstrate.

[OpteronGuy]

I tried wading through some of these threads, sadly I couldn't take it and neve found the figures you speak. Can you name some books that compare the two technologies?

Out of curiosity, how old is the star wars Universe? I know the ST one is the youngest of the three and I know Dune is OLD but I don't know the age of the SW Universe.

[Nasor]

According to the Star Wars Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections book, the heavy guns on an Aclamator class star destroyer produce 200 gigatons/volley. According to the Star Trek Next Generation Technical Manual standard photon torpedoes contain 1.5 kg of antimatter that is used to produce the torpedo explosion, so using E=mc^2 we can easily work out that a standard ‘trek torpedo has a yield of about 64 megatons. So the SW weapon is about 3000 times more powerful.

[OpteronGuy]

I can agree to that. Sadly there isn't anything like that for the Dune universe that I know of.

Does that manual give a date for the time of SW?

[Nasor]

I think the SW universe is supposed to be so old that no one really remembers when it ‘started’. Apparently the Old Republic “stood for a thousand years” before turning into the Empire, but we don’t really know when it came about. I believe there was also supposed to have been some sort of previous galaxy-wide empire before the Old Republic, but again there aren’t any dates that I know of.

[OpteronGuy]

Hrm, sounds alot like Dune. The time of the Imperium started when the Guild was formed, but there was a confederation of planets during the Butlerian Jihad that fought the Machine Worlds. How long that had been going on, no one mentions.

[Roman]

I think it's fairly well established that Star Wars ships would destroy a Trek ship, as Trekkers rely upon shields that defend from the same types of damage as SW ships deal, except SW ships deal thousands times more damage.

Dune, on the other hand, has probably had only a few thousand years of developing any advanced types of ship-to-ship fighters, as the Ixians oly recently discovered a way to imitated the Navigators' ability to fold space.

Since the Guild controlled the Dune universe for a very long time, it's unlikely that the Guild was under the same kinds of pressure to develop starship-to-starship fighters as the Trek and SW universes were. The Guild needed only rely on their control of intergalactic transport and commerce to get what they wanted done, and so probably didn't develop really massive weapon systems (besides, a Holtzman generator negated all types of energy based weapons).

Hotzman generators would stop projectiles that were thrown at it. Are photon torpedos actual projectiles that detonate, or would they slip through?
I think phasers and lazguns would be about equivalent, as in both univereses they perfrom similar tasks (ani-personnel, cut rocks, etc). Both, if I'm not mistaken, burn their targets as well, and can be considered similar.

Therefore, if a Trekker fired a phaser upon a shielded Dune ship, both would detonate in a spectacular explosion. If a Dune ship fired upon a Trekker ship with a lazgun, the lazgun would probably have the same effect as a phaser fired upon a Trek ship. It's probably also likely that Dune ships don't have mounted lazguns, per the Holtzmann effect. (Could a shielded Dune ship fire a lazgun, or would the weapon systems have to remain unshielded?)

I'm uncertain as to whether SW ships are shielded or not.

Nothing is mentioned in SW of an ability to become transdimensional, that I know of, so SW ships would be completely helpless against no-ships.

ST ships would probably be able to detect no-ships, but who knows if they'd able to do anything about it.


Blade 3 was not as good as the first one. As a popcorn flick, not bad, but not especially good, either. They introduced some cool new weapons, that we never actually got to see in use (like a four barrel stake rifle). A lot of the movie was a wiseass slayer cracking jokes and Snipes looking tough.
I did watch Blade 3 while fighting waves of nausea, so my unfavorable opinions are bit more circumstantial than usual.

[OpteronGuy]

Damn you Roman! Again you come forth with much to talk about and I am strapped for time(This time for food). However I will be back and so long as the significant other doesn't want to do anything else I will be here to respond. You make some very good and interesting points to this.

Alas that's sad to hear about Blade 3. I will probably see it too as well just to finish out the series. Any eye candy in the movie? If I remember correctly there is.