View Poll Results: Which universe would win?

Voters
670. This poll is closed
  • Star Trek

    227 33.88%
  • Star Wars

    285 42.54%
  • Spaceballs

    51 7.61%
  • Farscape

    14 2.09%
  • Dune

    54 8.06%
  • Stargate

    39 5.82%

Thread: Star Wars vs Star Trek

  1. #23461
    Hey Kittamaru. Remember me?

    I can't believe this is still going on. Wow...

    Looks like Vasago is still here. Is TWScott here too?

  2. #23462
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Hey FFH Nah, TW is long since gone... most of the "crazy" has been purged, which has sort of rendered this thread a little... well... dead...

  3. #23463
    Registered Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru View Post
    Hey FFH Nah, TW is long since gone... most of the "crazy" has been purged, which has sort of rendered this thread a little... well... dead...
    well lest resurrect it...zombie style!

  4. #23464
    Registered Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoRaan View Post
    Well, you gotta remember the Movies cover a very very small time frame in the span of the SW universe. They also cover only a small number of characters and a period of time when the Jedi were waning. It'd be like judging the Yankees history on a single bad season

    You gotta consider too Wookiepedia is much like Memory Alpha or Wikipedia, you need a grain of salt.
    Yeah, Wookiepedia is like Wikipedia when it comes to reliability... and it's more like Memory Alpha+Memory Beta.

  5. #23465
    Troper In Training
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    139
    So as a "potential concluding post" of one of the longest running and semi-calm STvsSW threads known, let us recap (for possible new members) what is generally accepted.

    When only using general primary canon (ST=Televised, Filmed or Animated Series, SW=Movies [G-level] and TV shows [T-Level]), the reasonable conclusion is that Star Wars and Star Trek would generally stalemate each other with SW having the possible win in the long term only by resources and numbers. However each have certain advantages over the other.

    For Star Trek, technology is built for quality and durability and thus normal starships in general are a bit more robust than their SW counterparts, though smaller and not in equal numbers. Star Wars uses the doctrine of size and quantity, so their ships are insanely massive and numerous though don't always hold up to what the technical manuals usually say. The FTL and STL capacities of any party are on par, with a possible heirarchy of ion > impulse > warp > hyperdrive > transwarp. Both franchises deal with numerous weapons of mass destruction so in space combat is stalemated with slight SW short term advantage and ST advantage in long term.

    In ground combat, SW has a definite advantage due to sheer numbers and logistics. While the ST powers have stronger and better quality weapons (disintigrating a single target or stunning a large number in wide beam), most if not all SW capital ships are capable of atmospheric entry / takeoff and can bring huge amounts of troops to overwhelm forces at a moment's notice, unlike ST whose only known modern-era equivalent is the UFP's Intrepid-class (TNG and later periods).

    Geographically, average sized SW powers have access to more planets and resources than the major Trek powers possibly exempting the Borg and Dominion.

    Omnipotent or god-like beings such as Q or time-traveling is/are unpredictable and definite deus ex machina so should usually be disregarded in normal situations. The only Force users that should be considered in a X vs UFP scenario are Sith Lords and 'dark-side' users as Jedi and other 'light-side' users would most likely be neutral or pro Starfleet (like seriously? Why is this last one so common in other places? ).

    If we expand to any EU, canon or otherwise, all hell breaks loose and these debates become confusing and difficult to follow/maintain due to ridiculous amounts of contradictory stories and information. Social commentary and cultural impact is pretty meaningless in an in-universe debate.

    Recap: A general war between Star Trek and Star Wars may end up for SW in the long run, but it will be a labor-intensive and resource-demanding battle with the primary win caused by SW outsourcing, though not outclassing ST. It is NOT the uber-curbstomp that most other places assume it will be, UNLESS it is definitely unmatched like one or two NX-Class ships vs the Imperial fleet at Endor or one side is unfairly disadvantaged (ie no Force in SW or no R&D for Trek).

  6. #23466
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    I would contend one point - I think the Trek ground forces aren't as outmatched as you might first believe - while it is true many larger starships do not support ground landings, they do carry a multitude of shuttles, transporters, and all have the ability to attack ground troops with little to no collateral damage. Also, there are dedicated fighters and small starships (I believe the Venture all the way up to the Akira and Intrepid are capable of atmospheric landings)

  7. #23467
    Troper In Training
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru View Post
    I would contend one point - I think the Trek ground forces aren't as outmatched as you might first believe - while it is true many larger starships do not support ground landings, they do carry a multitude of shuttles, transporters, and all have the ability to attack ground troops with little to no collateral damage. Also, there are dedicated fighters and small starships (I believe the Venture all the way up to the Akira and Intrepid are capable of atmospheric landings)
    Sorry, it seemed I mistyped and gave a wrong impression. SW has a slight (not definite) advantage: the sheer number of troops that can be surged to overwhelm. The Feds can send troops around much more quickly via transporter and shuttle, however not in the same quantity. It takes a small number of ST ships to move the same amount of personnel as a single ISD. A full ground assault would end with heavy casualties for Trek, but SW will have an equivalent death toll due to your aforementioned equipment. I'm being nice and overestimating Imperial markmanship to be fair.

    I would say that in a single STvsSW battle, Trek ground forces are more suited for strong defense (ANY ST shielding is MUCH better than the walk-under/through ground-based shields of the GFFA). There will be a huge GFFA loss but to the CIS/GE command, the number of troops lost means almost nothing if you can overwhelm the opponent through sheer firepower (like the Death Star) or numbers (wave upon wave of cannon fodder to wear down your enemy [I think Zapp Brannigan is the tactical specialist for them]).

    Intrepids are also the only ships known to land onscreen (I think Venture is EU). Atmospheric flight is another matter. Judging by the Constitutions and especially the pre-UFP NX-class, Feds can get very close to the surface (a few hundred meters or so) if they can achieve escape velocity (the image of an Akira or Sovereign cruising through the sky would be very impressive).

    Overall, both sides counteract each other somewhat evenly. SW may have the win if they capitalize on their vast resources, but ST will give them a run for their money.

  8. #23468
    Epic tread is epic

  9. #23469
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nexarc View Post
    Sorry, it seemed I mistyped and gave a wrong impression. SW has a slight (not definite) advantage: the sheer number of troops that can be surged to overwhelm. The Feds can send troops around much more quickly via transporter and shuttle, however not in the same quantity. It takes a small number of ST ships to move the same amount of personnel as a single ISD. A full ground assault would end with heavy casualties for Trek, but SW will have an equivalent death toll due to your aforementioned equipment. I'm being nice and overestimating Imperial markmanship to be fair.

    I would say that in a single STvsSW battle, Trek ground forces are more suited for strong defense (ANY ST shielding is MUCH better than the walk-under/through ground-based shields of the GFFA). There will be a huge GFFA loss but to the CIS/GE command, the number of troops lost means almost nothing if you can overwhelm the opponent through sheer firepower (like the Death Star) or numbers (wave upon wave of cannon fodder to wear down your enemy [I think Zapp Brannigan is the tactical specialist for them]).

    Intrepids are also the only ships known to land onscreen (I think Venture is EU). Atmospheric flight is another matter. Judging by the Constitutions and especially the pre-UFP NX-class, Feds can get very close to the surface (a few hundred meters or so) if they can achieve escape velocity (the image of an Akira or Sovereign cruising through the sky would be very impressive).

    Overall, both sides counteract each other somewhat evenly. SW may have the win if they capitalize on their vast resources, but ST will give them a run for their money.
    I believe the Defiant has landed on screen, as have Bird of Prey's And yeah, I see your point - the GFFA has massive amounts of troops to throw... I have to wonder though... how vulnerable is an ISD while landing planetside? I mean, it cannot maneuver at all, is expending massive amounts of power counteracting gravity... it would be interesting to see a landing ISD take a broadside from a Sovereign or Akira (imagine, a dozen photon torpedoes impacting the top of the ISD at the same moment... could make things dicey)

  10. #23470
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Just saw this, and found it rather entertaining given the previous (heated) discussions that were had over whether or not Star Trek torpedoes were shielded:

    The concept of shielding is confirmed in "Half a Life"[TNG4], though I didn't recall this when I was first making the page. Dr. Timicin has spent the last few years of his life developing a guidance program for Federation photon torpedoes, so that they can be used to restore the star of Kaelon II. No mention is made of further modifications to the photon torpedoes, and the torpedoes look no different than usual. The photon torpedoes that are fired are capable of reaching the star's core, and Timicin reports that "their shields are holding". The torpedoes then sit there for over six seconds waiting to detonate.
    http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWtorpsh.html

  11. #23471
    bladerunner universe!! is where it be may?

  12. #23472
    Registered Senior Member alpinedigital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru View Post
    Just saw this, and found it rather entertaining given the previous (heated) discussions that were had over whether or not Star Trek torpedoes were shielded:



    http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWtorpsh.html
    That IS pretty amusing, considering that I've always believed the visibility of projectiles on movies/TV were created to be visible by design for one specific reason: To be visible on movies/TV. That includes things like laser bolts that should be naked to the eye traveling at velocities we should not be able to see, too. And the logic stands the same for sounds in space, created so that things in space are audible on movies/TV.

    Inventing reason for any of the visible aspects of such things would be as stupid as trying to figure out why different ship engines produce different sounds... IN SPACE. The only reason we need focus on is projectiles look cool as hell when you can see them, and ships sound cool as hell when you can hear them. Kinda why just about everything that's ever been invisible to the naked eye in TV/Movies, was specifically designed to be INVISIBLE, right?

  13. #23473
    Registered Senior Member alpinedigital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nexarc View Post
    Star Wars and Star Trek would generally stalemate each other with SW having the possible win in the long term only by resources and numbers.
    THAT stands true only if for some strange reason you chose to remove The Borg from the discussion. Borg don't generally kill, they assimilate, so they'd have all THEIR numbers, and the Empire's numbers soon after that. They'll take small ships and assimilate the technology to put them at or above the capabilities of Star Wars, including hyperspace travel.

    As for The Empire's efforts to attack Star Trek ships, there's hardly any shred of hope in catching a ship in normal space that can outrun you 1000x over easy with Impulse engines. That's been my understanding of the speed differences for a long time, and most recently, stumbled onto this little gem:

    "Sublight drives are normally used for local journeys. Starships can move at several thousand kilometers per second in open space, allowing travel from one planet to another planet in the same system in a few hours." - starwarsmap.com official galaxy map.

    So, the calculation of speed based on the Rebels at Yavin miraculously reaching the death star in such short time, I don't care that it makes sense when scrutinized for support of an argument about such great ship speeds in normal space, since technically, we never witness this incredible journey so at best, its a bad attempt to draw conclusion from the available evidence. For that matter, we should conclude that in the SW galaxy, we can hear things in space.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nexarc View Post
    The FTL and STL capacities of any party are on par, with a possible heirarchy of ion > impulse > warp > hyperdrive > transwarp. Both franchises deal with numerous weapons of mass destruction so in space combat is stalemated with slight SW short term advantage and ST advantage in long term.
    I think your > things are pointing in the wrong direction, and I'd kinda disagree that transwarp is faster than hyperdrive, although it does have tactical advantage since they can still use sensors, fire weapons, and change course on the fly. That about puts Hyperspace travel strategic use on the level of waiting at a bus stop by comparison. Without impeccably accurate nav maps to plot a course thru Trek space, its best use is to retreat back into SW territory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nexarc View Post
    In ground combat, SW has a definite advantage due to sheer numbers and logistics.
    Ok, so lets say ST and SW arrive and start transporting personnel and equipment at the same time. Still stand by your claim? Because as I see it, while SW can physically move objects and personnel in transport vehicles, ST can transport things directly from ship to surface. And while they have use of that power, they can transport SW stuff OFF the surface. Or my favorite - transport the ground out from under SW stuff and rematerialize it to bury them. Not to mention - transporters work quite well as a delivery system for explosives: Point A, right over to point B with zero danger to ST personnel or vehicle, and kinda no way to prevent it. "Commander, they're setting up shield a generator... and boom goes the dynamite."


    Quote Originally Posted by Nexarc View Post
    Omnipotent or god-like beings such as Q or time-traveling is/are unpredictable and definite deus ex machina so should usually be disregarded in normal situations.
    Oh, how ultimately convenient. Aren't you going to argue that Q wouldn't get involved or that if you go back in time to prevent something, it wouldn't effect the original timeline? And what's with 'X vs UFP'? Is SW side back to dictating ST limits to only using UFP again? Yep- the debate is always executed by SW bringing anything and everything whenever necessary while dictating limits for ST side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nexarc View Post
    Recap: A general war between Star Trek and Star Wars may end up for SW in the long run, but it will be a labor-intensive and resource-demanding battle with the primary win caused by SW outsourcing, though not outclassing ST.
    Overwhelming numbers for the Empire with mega-ships that are pretty much incapable of doing any maneuvering... they just sit there, by comparison. Their best strategy is to go straight for planets, but can't jump to hyperspace in unknown territory and kinda don't know where the strategic targets are. Acquiring intel would be a tedious task of finding personnel they can catch in normal space which they can't do. Yeah - I'll sign up to join that team.

  14. #23474
    Why is this even a discussion, it's Spaceballs of course!

    Thank you for pressing the self destruct button ...

  15. #23475
    Registered Senior Member
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    ok yes star wars will win....spaceball...really? star trek can maybe take a few if they(if they ever get a star wars shields down) do sabotage on some sd's and other ships(force sensitives cant be on every ship) and remember when han solo and obi-wan where on the death star how long they went undetected? the only thing i can see that would give star wars a problem would be the star bases in star trek if they dont have the death star to blow it up i can tell you they are tough... now there was a game called starfleet command Orion pirates where the ships had something called X-weapons and these ships where tough but were limited to light cruisers and heavy cruisers ...now the most over looked under dog would be star-gate for one reason Asgard weapon and shields and goa'uld fleets and one of there man ships are the ha'tak which has SHIELDS 60 staff cannons (not as strong as star wars weapons but close) and naquadah bombs (may i remind you to a episode where the idiot general used naquadah on a nuke and sent it through the gate and basicly devoided the life on that world[from how big the explosion was] but almost destroyed star-gate command as-well) and the ha'tak as 12 wings of death gliders (not as many as star wars ships can hold )and the humans have their 2-3 warships that are small but really powerful when the Asgard gave them a upgrade be for committing suicide. and lets not even bring the replicators they are basicly the steroid version of the borg just they dont need hosts they can build anything out of a planet and of enemy ships and unlike the borg they use shields and once they get into your ship if you dont kill that one quick your screwed they basicly build themselves faster than tribbles reproduce and they use your ship to do it

    so with adding the star-gate uni into this star trek is even more screwed and star wars might have to bring the vong into this

  16. #23476
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    heh... cadas, I would recommend reading over the last thousand or so pages of debate - it's been pretty much beaten to death that Star Wars isn't as all-powerful as many like to make them out to be

  17. #23477
    Registered Senior Member
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    but..its....sooo...many....pagess.....long.....

  18. #23478
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    heh, it's a lot of good info (and a lot of mindless trolling) though

  19. #23479
    I like how transphasic torpedoes aren't used in this.

  20. #23480
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    The reason Transphasic torps are so effective against the Borg is because they hit multiple frequencies/modulations at once, making it impossible for the Borg to "fully" adapt to the attack.

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