Star Wars vs Star Trek

[George1]

Heh, let me ask you something - if Slave 1 was trapped inside that asteroid, and set off a Seismic Charge like we saw in the movies - what do you suppose would happen to the Slave 1?

well, it can just avoid the charge's axis. remember that shock wave? it destroys asteroids at contact with it, but everything above or below its horizontal axis is unharmed.

It'd be blown to bits, quite simply.

no, i just told you what would happen, no need to do it twice!

I highly, HIGHLY doubt the Ent-D could launch a volley of full-intensity photon torpedoes in such close quarters without suffering ill effects. Now, as to why they didn't just "phaser bore" their way out, who knows - bad writing perhaps, though that doesn't fly in a debate scenario.

still, just because they were so close proves nothing. Riker wasn't referring to the ships survival, he wanted no trace of the Pegasus or the asteroid because of the treaty with the Romulans. you know, that one that said they can't research on cloak devices, the thing they were doing on the Pegasus! as to why they didn't phaser bore it, i'll give a wild guess and say it never cross their mind! cuz they like to "think out of the box", and for unknown reasons simpler solutions just escape them all the time. despite a full phaser fire in on of the fissures could have split open the asteroid, they thought it would be a lot more cool to use the phase cloak. now as i said, Riker's main thought was to destroy the evidence of the cloak at any cost (since 300 torpedoes would certainly NOT be good for them, i somehow doubt he was thinking for the best of the ship) so indeed, why didn't they tough to just blast it with the phaser?

[Earthmosphere]

I guess for me Star Trek is better than Star Wars, but none of them are good.

[Saquist]

a fissure? the Enterprise was able to enter it quite comfortably. there were also other "fissures", that actually made it unstable. also, Wong's calculations include variables: for a metallic asteroid, or a granite like one. so the statement stands.

alot of people make a big deal about this asteroid and they really don't understand how big it was.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N...0/image004.jpg


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N...0/image006.jpg

It was as big as a starbase.
8974 meters long, and 4487 wide.

And the episode tells us nothing.
We don't know how many torpedos the Enterprise has so we can't quantify Rikers statements on most of our torpedoes to destroy the asteroid statement.

[George1]

alot of people make a big deal about this asteroid and they really don't understand how big it was.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N...0/image004.jpg


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N...0/image006.jpg

It was as big as a starbase.
8974 meters long, and 4487 wide.

right...did ya reed the part in which i say its about 5 km?

And the episode tells us nothing.
We don't know how many torpedos the Enterprise has so we can't quantify Rikers statements on most of our torpedoes to destroy the asteroid statement.

this episode not, others give glues. it has about 250 torpedoes.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Galaxy_class

[Kittamaru]

Yes, that's the Ent-D's maximum compliment. What did they have on hand?

Also, again, they couldn't use them at max yield without damaging themselves.

As for the seismic charge question - you are being deliberately obtuse and you know it... at least I sure hope you understood the point I was making.

[George1]

as i explained, i don't think Riker was thinking of safety when he spoke about that.
seismic charges:
it uses a mix of gases, baradium and volatile collapsium, to create a mini-supernova shock wave. it exploded and collapsed in on itself, like a mini-star.http://images.wikia.com/starwars/ima...smicCharge.jpg
and it sends out a shockwave of energy that obliterated everything on touch.
http://images.wikia.com/starwars/ima...mic_Charge.jpg
now i was not obscure. any one can find out how it works. i do not know why you thought i was obscure.

[Kittamaru]

*sighs* I'll spell it out for you then:

If they were to use a multi-directional weapon (photon torpedo) at a yield high enough to shatter the asteroid into pieces in only a few shots, the damage to the Enterprise would likely be catastrophic due to its close proximity to the targeted material.

Much the same as with the Seismic Charge - if you were to use one of those in a confined space without room to maneuver, you would most likely be hit by the blast, obliterating you.

[George1]

*sighs* I'll spell it out for you then:

If they were to use a multi-directional weapon (photon torpedo) at a yield high enough to shatter the asteroid into pieces in only a few shots, the damage to the Enterprise would likely be catastrophic due to its close proximity to the targeted material.

Much the same as with the Seismic Charge - if you were to use one of those in a confined space without room to maneuver, you would most likely be hit by the blast, obliterating you.

yeah,yeah, i got what you mean! but did you got what i meant? the seismic charge would indeed rip you apart at close proximity; reason for which only large capital ships can resists the direct impact of its shockwave against its shield. 250 torpedoes would no doubtfully obliterate the Enterprise at that close range, but again, Riker is the kind of officer to know that kind of thing, and wouldn't say what he did if he had safety in mind, now would he?

[Believe]

@George1: For you too have defended Starwars for this long against all takers there can be only one conclusion

George1 = George Lucas

Don't you have something better to do like swim in your money pile or something Mr. Lucas.

[TW Scott]

i just have to say this, because i just remembered something!
the asteroid in Pegasus. it was hollow! right? so it takes the entire photon torpedo output of the Enterprise to blow it up? i remember the enterprise had almost 300 torpedoes, so what figure do we get for each torpedo if almost 300 of them are needed to blow destroy a hollow asteroid? by using Wong's calculations, the asteroid is about 5 km large. what dose this show?

Actually the Enterprise NCC 1701 had 290 torpedoes. The A upped the compliment to over 320, and the much larger ships would logically carry more.

Thosgh this may not say much as the Asteroid seemed slightly energy resistant. heavy Disrupter fire did not vaporise any part of the asteroid, it merely heated a portion enough to be thick lava that closed the open fissure.

[Kittamaru]

yeah,yeah, i got what you mean! but did you got what i meant? the seismic charge would indeed rip you apart at close proximity; reason for which only large capital ships can resists the direct impact of its shockwave against its shield. 250 torpedoes would no doubtfully obliterate the Enterprise at that close range, but again, Riker is the kind of officer to know that kind of thing, and wouldn't say what he did if he had safety in mind, now would he?

I think it goes without saying that the first officer of the flagship of the Federation would have safety on his mind at all times... especially as the loss of the ship would mean likely the loss of his life (being, you know, in space and all that).

Considering he thought simply blowing apart a much much larger MOON was a viable option (and so did Geordi, excepting the fact that it would fragment and make the situation worse), obviously blowing their way out was possible in terms of firepower, but impossible for other reasons (such as personal safety).

[Saquist]

right...did ya reed the part in which i say its about 5 km?
this episode not, others give glues. it has about 250 torpedoes.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Galaxy_class

I find the 5 km an insufficient guesstimate.
Note also that no episode gives us any idea as to the normal torpedo complement of the Galaxy.

[George1]

ok kit, i see your point, but the fact is, if he was thinking of safety, and knew what 300 torpedoes would do, and knew it would take them all to blow the asteroid up, then why would he even bring it up?
Saquist,the asteroid is not spherical. it is 5km wide, and just because you find it insufficient means nothing. show me it is 8 km.

[George1]

@George1: For you too have defended Starwars for this long against all takers there can be only one conclusion

George1 = George Lucas

Don't you have something better to do like swim in your money pile or something Mr. Lucas.

what the hell do you think i do all day?

[Saquist]

ok kit, i see your point, but the fact is, if he was thinking of safety, and knew what 300 torpedoes would do, and knew it would take them all to blow the asteroid up, then why would he even bring it up?
Saquist,the asteroid is not spherical. it is 5km wide, and just because you find it insufficient means nothing. show me it is 8 km.

Source for 8,000 km asteroid
http://picard578.blogspot.com/2010/0...edo-yield.html

[George1]

Source for 8,000 km asteroid
http://picard578.blogspot.com/2010/0...edo-yield.html

right. all that says is an opinion. there is nothing to support that statement.

From these screenshots, we can conclude that asteroid is 8974 meters long, and 4487 meters wide on average. That would give volume of around 1.419 x 10e11 cubic meters.

HOW did we got that measurement? that's what I'd like to know! all it shows is the end result. Wong provided his measurements.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/...a/Pegasus1.jpg
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/...a/Pegasus2.jpg
of how he got the 5km figure, so where is this site getting its?

[George1]

if you thought TCW is surprising now, just wait:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKyhsGnY4FA
so this guy, called the Father, can actually GRAB a lightsaber....by its BLADE!

[Saquist]

Well according to GIMP the asteroid is 209 x 205 pixels

The asteroid has a 22 pixel tall gash at it's largest point (which the enterprise enters)



In the closer entrance scene he shows on the site the gash is 187 pixels tall.
In the closer entrance scene he shows on the site the Enterprise is 30 pixels tall.

Enterprise is a known variable. According to the Wiki Height, 195 meters.

That means the gashes height is 1215.5 meters tall.

That means 205 x 209 translates to 11,326.25m x 11,547.25m
This is a minimum since we can't determine dept.

[George1]

ok, i see. it seams to be using the Enterprise as a starting point, right? the Enterprise is at an unknown distance from the asteroid. Wong however uses the Pegasus itself, since it is right on the asteroid. i ain't good at pixel measurement, but is seams much more logical to use it instead of the Enterprise.
any way, 5km or not, it still holds up the fall of the exaggerated torpedo firepower. the site you used even says the torpedo has a 1 gigaton yield!
a few torpedo's like than could have split the unstable and fissured asteroid in two.by the way, note that it was quite hollow. the energy required is therefore much lower than at first sight. the 5 km figure stands much better, since the asteroid was unstable and did not had a completely solid interior, a few gigatone torpedoes could fracture the asteroid into pieces. the payload of the enterprise would vaporize it almost completely. a 8 km asteroid however would have not been. giving the size of the fissures, roughly double at best the size of the enterprise, the asteroid would have been much more stable. a lot more torpedoes would have been needed to fracture it, yet alone vaporize it.
i don't understand yet how you got to the 8 km figure, when the visual evidence doesn't show that kind of a magnitude.

[Kittamaru]

ok kit, i see your point, but the fact is, if he was thinking of safety, and knew what 300 torpedoes would do, and knew it would take them all to blow the asteroid up, then why would he even bring it up?
Saquist,the asteroid is not spherical. it is 5km wide, and just because you find it insufficient means nothing. show me it is 8 km.

Unless I'm mistaken, Riker wanted to destroy the asteroid BEFORE they were inside of it, along with the Pegasus (which is a Federation starship itself, and thus made of much, much sterner stuff than an asteroid).

As for the size of the asteroid:


The Ent-D's stats:

Length: 642.51 meters
Width: 463.73 meters
Height: 195.26 meters

As you can see, the Ent-D is MASSIVELY dwarfed by that asteroid, and was able to comfortably fit within that single fissure.... assuming the asteroid to be a paltry 5km is a silly error at best, obvious bias and attempted misdirection at worst.