01-17-11, 03:12 AM #22521
01-17-11, 12:26 PM #22522
ok,i really wasn't suspecting an answer to my last post, so i came back, just to make sure. well, kit, it dose matter that you can adapt, but adapting to a civilization that is thousands of years ahead of you, with superior ftl,construction and weaponry is quite irrelevant.
Voyager toke 7 years to cross the galaxy, and it would have toke them years more without help from more advance races that appears only in the show, and i got a felling they won't show up again. that means the Empire, or Republic if you want, could strike ANYWHERE with a huge amount of ship, that they could build. the federation build its entire fleet of 30,000, including 5,000 during the Dominion War which is a war state in which most governments invest heavily on warfare construction. The Empire build some 25,000 star destroyers in 20 years, ships twice as big as anything the Feds,Romulans and klingons ever build, not to mention while they were building a small moon-size battlestation, which they later made it BIGGER and build it in less than half. oh, and that was operational within months? and that they build millions of fighters? and that's the military. the civilian market is also fulled with millions of ships. remember The Phantom Menace, when we see that huge space traffic to Coruscant? or in Attack of the Clones? just to sustain Coruscant is a task that needs millions of ships. and a super FTL to bring it in time. AND and super production capacity to sustain just food. dam, they have entire planets for that! and not just two or five.
as for firepower, they made quite a lot of it. Remember Caamas? they totally obliterated it's surface within hours. just for that is required way over 100,000 gigatones, as in the K-T event, which resulted in just some 70% of all species extinct and a 10 km wide crater, while Caamas surface was said to be almost levered. plus that, they have invasion forces. take your pick: an army of hundreds of millions of battle droids, an army of millions of clones, an army of millions of stormtroopers...if they would take a planet in Trek, they would meat little resistance in term of soldiers. while the feds have none worth speech of (if they do please tell me), the klingons are so stupid they drop their phasers and go with a bal..ball..whatever, and just like them the others would run as hell. and remember, neither the feds,klingons or romulans would bombard their own citizens...well, klingons would, but their dum as fuck.but the federation wont. that's a fact.
superior numbers and speed would ensure a they could attack anywhere, and could keep any planet they would want. and if not, they could always threaten with orbital bombardment. in all wars the federation, and for that matter all trek governments, fought, only boarder worlds were directly threaten ,and as proof an attack to a key world would be a big shock and defeat, look at the Breen attack on Earth. there is NOTHING that could stop the empire from a direct attack on earth, qu'nos, romulus and so on. how would they know a gravity well could stop them? the magical scan in which they just see the answer (another reason i prefer SW)? hell, the Empire could establish a territory well outside the range of any of them, build a base there, and while the federation would take years to get there, they could strike every day and meat little resistance from isolated colonies or other full members, cuz it would take days for a fleet to get there.
but, despite these obvious and irrefutable facts for which the Empire or any other major government in SW would win, i have to say that i really got bored of this debate. reason for it was that i just watched some documentaries, about SW, and realized just how stupid it is to get mad at something like this. a few more days and i would have get banned for good...and you don't wanna know what i was gonna say. REALLY, YOU DON'T!
anyway, i am really angry right now that i can't watch the latest episode of the clone wars, "Monster", so i will just go find a swearing forum to take out my nerves.
oh, and Shogun, the last ST has Vulcan destroyed, and Abrams himself said he didn't care about continuity when he made it. so technically speaking, as far as i go, its not canon. oh, and if you want to still claim that a astrophysicist and a man with a doctorate in science are NOT smarter than anyone here, then sorry. in other days i would just swear at you, but not anymore. really, 140? is there ANY proof beside your word kit?
i just made an test to. guess how much i got.
01-17-11, 02:22 PM #22523
Wall of text with little to no capitalization and fewer partitioning paragraphs... tl;dr...
Quick response initiated:
Voyager would have taken 70 years to get home on warp power alone, crossing 70,000 light years. That's a rate of just 2.7 light years a day, or .114 light years per hour... 299,583,399,000 meters / second, or a mere 83,217.6 km/hr.
Tell me, considering that we know they are capable of traveling faster than light (83,275.6 km/hr), does that 70k light years in 70 years figure seem to make any sense, even if they only did Warp ONE the entire way?
No, it does not... not by a long shot.
(facts pulled from Wikipedia: After the destruction of the Val Jean during a battle with the Kazon, the Starfleet and Maquis crew were forced to merge for their projected 70-year journey home. (VOY: "Caretaker", "Relativity") )
So... what do we do?
Well, we know for a fact that, at times, lower Warp factors have been faster than higher Warp factors in other places. One example of this is that, in VOY: "The 37's", Warp 9.9 is calculated out to be 21,473 times the speed of light... yet in VOY: "Relativity", and VOY: "Friendship One" , Warp 9.975 is only 1,554 - 1,721 times the speed of light...
So, it seems that certain areas of space allow for "faster" warp travel... given that the Delta Quadrant was COMPLETELY unknown to them, it stands to reason they did not know of the fastest "warp routes" to use.
We also have one, and only one, exact speed:
Exact velocities were only given in the Voyager episode "The 37's" where Tom Paris describes Voyager's velocity at warp factor 9.9 (under the new warp table formula) as being about 4 billion miles per second, which would be over 21,000 times the speed of light.
01-17-11, 03:18 PM #22524
Thank you Kittamaru! Exactly my point!
Well, probably your first one was faulty. 140 is minimum qualification for genius......well the mostly widely accepted standard, made by Terman. You are a genius, welcome to the club
But however, even if I had an IQ of 80, I still have equal say on the subject matter.
01-17-11, 03:30 PM #22525
Do they have a degree in Science Fiction, or even more specific Star Wars or Star Trek? ( the world will be a sad place when those become degrees ) I think not!
Are they employees of Paramount or Lucasfilm that directly worked on the series? ( Leonard Mlodinow is a different story, which I remember correctly from his extremely short biography at the front of his article in Scientific American is one of the consultants that worked on Star Trek, so he has AUTHORITY in the matter )
Are they consultants that worked on the series like Mlodinow?
If not, then no, they have no AUTHORITY in the matter, no more then a three year-old, but they however like all have a SAY on the matter.
Its just like how Schrodinger is no expert in Halo or Starcraft.
Last edited by Shogun; 01-17-11 at 03:40 PM.
01-17-11, 03:34 PM #22526
How do you know they even HAVE such degrees and qualifications? Did they give TANGIBLE evidence? Or did you rely on their word?
Correct me if they actually produced such evidence, I also have NO CLUE who the two individuals are.
P.S. I haven't watched a lot of the Clone Wars series, because I live in Canada, they don't air it here, so at least take comfort in that.
01-17-11, 05:34 PM #22527
ok, i see you don't understand what i meant. first, saxton and wong proved their abilities, just as our friends kit and Saquist did.
knowledge means everything to me,well almost, so i prefer to go with them.
PS: try thsi site:http://galactic-voyage.com/Movies-Te...on%20Shows.htm
it has all episodes so far, except for Monster.
01-17-11, 07:34 PM #22528
The DEGREE however is authority, but only in the field specified, and not ALWAYS.
Get what I mean?
It is not like "I got a PhD, I win, you lose,"
It is like "Here are my facts, here is my statement, here is my opinion, lets discuss this matter as equals,"
But sometimes, when people believe their knowledge to be absolute authority, they do APPEAR TO BE absolute authority, but since this is dealing with a intangible issue about a man-made intangible product, it do BECOME absolute authority, because authority is CREATED by human society.....you see what I mean? On the contrary, authority can be diminished by the people as well.
My basic point with this post is:
It is not because they support A that A is true and B is false
If they are someone like....Leeland Chee ( correct me, I pulled the name out of memory ), who work for Lucasfilm licensing, and decides what is canon, or better yet George Lucas himself, they might have AUTHORITY and POWER, because they are the AUTHORITY in the matter at hand....
Nothing wrong with going by them, but there IS something wrong in using them as thrump cards, due to their DEGREE and ACHIEVEMENTS in their PROFESSIONAL FIELD.
This is not a ancient Roman society, where people's auctoritas was a evaluation of a person's statements and opinion. Debates are also not dominated by auctoritas, and people with reputable and strong auctoritas can say "Do you rather believe me or them?" and it will still work.
01-17-11, 07:35 PM #22529
01-17-11, 07:37 PM #22530
Regardless of whoever they are ( unless in certain circumstances, they have true authority AND power ), they have to slug it out here like the average joe.
01-17-11, 07:49 PM #22531
01-17-11, 07:52 PM #22532
01-17-11, 08:20 PM #22533
Its the assumption that the source is unassailable in validity. It's an assumption that many people exercise and it's a fallacy because it's truth is not questioned. Kitt and I do question the validity of Saxon and Wong if not for the reason of it's status as lesser canon but also due to the effective errors that have been made manifest in Wong's method of analysis. The assumption is that the Saxton's numbers are derivatives of Wong's wrong numbers and assumptions.
01-17-11, 08:24 PM #22534
Saquist - what do you make of my analysis of Voyager's "70 year" projection for their 70,000 light year journey?
01-17-11, 09:24 PM #22535
The only other episode that gives us a figurable number of warp nine is Star Trek TNG Bloodlines.
DATA: I am tracing the transporter beam Bok used to send the probe. The ship is holding position approximately three hundred billion kilometres from here.
RIKER: Even at warp nine we wouldn't get there for another twenty minutes. That's 15,000,000 kilometers a minutes. 900,000,000 kps. Correct me if I'm wrong but the canon Warp 9 is 3002.0768567833684461801904302743 Times the Speed of light.
Considering your numbers ...I can't find rhyme or reason to the Warp Speed system. The thing is I know there are Gravitational gradients that assist your speed or hamper your speed...but those gradients are negligible to the speed of light and everything above it. But to speed up and slow down a ship Traveling at these speed would require a Gravitational lens of a black hole. And don't even mean crossing near black hole at a distance of several light years. If I'm correct you'd have to put the black hole DEAD in front of the ship for the time space continuum to be warped to the magnitude on the order of thousands of times in velocity.
Warp engines would have to have some sort of negative mass field for that to happen because even the smallest particle is not going to be accelerated thousands of times light speed just by passing through spatial gradients. And remember this is taking into account the motivating effect of the warp engines at what ever speed you're traveling at would have a baseline of zero. Thus assuming you're moving along at warp 9 in one area gets you to your destination in 30 months but at the same engine output gets you to another destination of similar distance in 8 months. That's a HUGE difference. From 1,500 to 1,700 to 15,000 to 21,000.
Even for a small Starship the space time continuum is still relativity flat until you actually approach a gravity well at which time we can actually measure the difference in the speed of time from orbit to a planetary surface. In the interstellar medium we should be dealing with the loss and gaining of fractions of a seconds, but thousands of kilometers? It seems to me that is the effect of a very powerful space/time distortion as a result I can't find a way to bring in all these canon variables into alignment by means of known scientific reason.
01-17-11, 11:49 PM #22536
That's why I theorized that some areas of space are more "warpable" than others. Only real way to make these numbers come in line (especially where in some episodes Warp 6 is faster than Warp 8... wtfh?)
01-18-11, 12:17 AM #22537
01-18-11, 01:22 AM #22538
http://www.zamandayolculuk.com/cetin...Warp_Field.png (if the above image doesn't work)
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:o..._drive.gif&t=1 (if the above image doesn't work)
01-18-11, 04:01 PM #22539
Such an effect implies dark matter or exotic matter, likely within the coils. Add a powerful charge...expand and contract space around the ship through oscillation. At least dark matter is "known" to be more than 10 times as massive as normal matter.
Dark Matter apparently doesn't interact with normal matter on any other level other than by means of gravity. It's unclear exactly what this would mean to a charged field of dark matter interacting with gradient space/time. Would small fluctuations in space/ time be exaggerated by the charged field?
01-18-11, 05:09 PM #22540
*shrugs* I know that, in series, high-warp factors were damaging the fabric of space and subspace... so they were limited to Warp 5. Things like new Nacelle designs and variable geometry nacelles, along with new warp field geometry, mitigated the damage and allowed them to remove the Warp 5 speed limit.
Definitely seems to imply some sort of spacial distortion... but to what end?
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