View Poll Results: Which universe would win?

Voters
670. This poll is closed
  • Star Trek

    227 33.88%
  • Star Wars

    285 42.54%
  • Spaceballs

    51 7.61%
  • Farscape

    14 2.09%
  • Dune

    54 8.06%
  • Stargate

    39 5.82%

Thread: Star Wars vs Star Trek

  1. #22301
    That which cannot be known Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Sure there is... the fact that they had to do EITHER the DS2 OR the extra SD's, showed that their construction capacity wasn't actually all that good.

  2. #22302
    Registered Senior Member
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    also i want to clear a few things about Darkstar's site:
    he seams to think that Han Solo knows it all just because he
    s a smuggler who has been up against Imperial bulk-cruisers, and larger Corellian ships (possibly including the Star Destroyers he'd just run from at Tatooine), it is safe to say that he'd have a fair idea of what the Empire could do.
    but this has several mistakes. one is that obviously he didn't knew everything. he never saw a planet blow up, and as a smuggler, what gives him the impression he has the influence to know what would take to blow up a planet? none. Solo saw a lot, yes, but i doubt he saw a planet blow up. second, the statement that the entire fleet is not able to do that is pretty week proof. why?there is no official number of the fleet. Han Solo said it would take a thousand ships massing more power HE ever saw. unless he can prove he witness such an event, the statement is out, because it comes from a person who never saw such a thing. if a blind men tells you he saw a red car, will you believe him on the assumption he saw in the past, without knowing if he really did, and later you find out he was born blind?
    the Death Star also had 5,000 turbolasers. an Star Destroy had about 5 heavy turbolasers. if the two types of turbolasers are similar,even close, then about 1000 ships are equal in firepower with the DS turbolasers. even it the SD weapons are half as powerful as the SD, then it still takes only 2000 ships. conclusion: when he says:
    Therefore, if we accept Dodonna's statement as referring to anti-ship weapons, and Solo's comment as accurate, both can make sense. The Death Star's turbolaser emplacements are equivalent to a firepower greater than half the Imperial starfleet, while the superlaser itself is far more powerful than anything that has existed before. Otherwise, the two must contradict. Given that there is no reason to assume a contradiction and several reasons to accept that there is not one, then both statements hold, and no assumptions about additional meaning need to be made.

    And so, the turbolasers of the Death Star I are equivalent in firepower to that of over half the Imperial fleet.
    is totally wrong, even with 25,000 ships.

    and so goes to my conclusion:
    IF Solo is a reliable source, then the entire fleet not being able to do what a SD dose means one of two things:
    25,000 ships- more firepower that federation,klingon, or romulan ships combined.
    or two: the fleet is way larger than 25,000.
    basically, if Solo is right, Darkstar fails to take into consideration the immense firepower of the SD, it's industry, or anything else: he takes everything for granted without considering the source.

    the 25,000 ship-debunked and fails.

  3. #22303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru View Post
    Sure there is... the fact that they had to do EITHER the DS2 OR the extra SD's, showed that their construction capacity wasn't actually all that good.
    and how dose that prove its construction capacity
    wasn't actually all that good
    ?
    the fact that they build them proves the opposite. the time frame proves it even more.

  4. #22304
    That which cannot be known Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Do remember that Han WAS an imperial officer... and a smuggler generally knows a fair bit about the people they are smuggling against (if they want to LIVE anyway)

    Know thy enemy and all that.

    Where/when did they build these extra SD's then? Do we EVER see them being built on screen? Or hear of them even?

    Oh, and BTW - darkstar is taking the SD's into account... why do you have it in your head they are so super powerful? Can't you see that, if they were that powerful, there'd be no NEED for a Death Star, as a handful of SD's could just BDZ the planet into oblivion...

  5. #22305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru View Post
    Do remember that Han WAS an imperial officer... and a smuggler generally knows a fair bit about the people they are smuggling against (if they want to LIVE anyway)
    Know thy enemy and all that.
    that dose not prove he ever saw a planet blow up. nor that he participated in any event even close.
    Where/when did they build these extra SD's then? Do we EVER see them being built on screen? Or hear of them even?
    well, two possibilities:
    your right, and a fleet of 25,000 ships would have, at least, a few percents of the DS firepower. 5% is a reasonable low number. do the calculation: the power the DS had to blow up Alderaan, split to apr. 25,000. the firepower for one ship is well over the combine forces of feds,klingons,romulans and dominion. and there is no reason what so ever to assume a low number like 5%.
    the second: their just there, and are just to many to be mentioned.

    either way,in a direct conflict, the Empire still has an extreme advantage over feds,klingons,romulans and dominion. then the Borg would have a serious issue on their hands: and they are the only enemy in the ST universe that would stand against the Empire in a direct conflict.

  6. #22306
    Registered Senior Member
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    Oh, and BTW - darkstar is taking the SD's into account... why do you have it in your head they are so super powerful? Can't you see that, if they were that powerful, there'd be no NEED for a Death Star, as a handful of SD's could just BDZ the planet into oblivion...
    as mentioned above, they are either powerful, or extremely numerous.
    but numbers mean nothing: reason for the DS? instant destruction of any target, without the need to mass up so many ships for a BDZ (and that's taking into consideration the first option: there are a heck of a lot SD.) if we take the second option, then its simple: with just 25,000 ships you can't keep at bay an entire galaxy, even reduce as you claim. you need a weapon that the simply mentioned would instantly make a rebelion on a planet into nothing. this is more for the psychological effect: many Moffs believed there was no reason to actually use the DS; its simple presence in the galaxy would discourage any idea of rebellion.

  7. #22307
    Quote Originally Posted by George1 View Post
    again the small galaxy thing. and how dose hyperdrive makes it smaller in any way?
    I don't know if the Galaxy is small or not.
    All I know is that speed effects scope. You simply don't need 100,000's of ships when you can cross the galaxy in a mater of days. Any number of ships could make it to Coruscant in a matter of hours to head off a conflict...infact half the fleet could be their in hours. AND who else has as many ships?

    It seems to me you're trying to describe an arms race when the Imperials had no opponent other than rebels. 25,000 SD's was overkill.


    depends on what you think on rapidly. even if there are only 25,000 ships in the fleet, being able to build them in a few decades is obviously an achievement.
    from 19 BBY (Before The Battle Of Yavin) to 4 After the Battle of Yavin (ABY) is the length of Paly's rule. 23 years. 25,000 ships and a massive space station is 23 years is way beyond the capabilities of the Federation or the Klingons, or the Romulans or all of them combined, don't you agree? then they build the second Death Star,a lot bigger. in say a quarter of the time it toke to build the DS1, they made another enormous station.
    so, a civilization able to do that is not able to build more than 25,000 ships?[/QUOTE]


    Heres the thing...this just comes down to numbers

    25,000 Star Destroyers in 23 years.= 1086 ships a year

    Federation Produces 68,637 units in 78 years. (879 units a year)
    Between 2285 - 2363

    In the Dominion War:
    Federation produces 5,189 units in Five Years. 1,037 ships a year after the star of the Dominion War.



    Between the start of the Cardassian Federation wars some 1,156 ships are produced a year.

    So the Federation alone has EASILY matched and exceeded the same ship construction production as Star Wars.
    Last edited by Saquist; 01-06-11 at 03:27 PM.

  8. #22308
    Registered Senior Member
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    overkill yes...but they didn't just toke the Galaxy: many worlds didn't wanted imperial rule (New Plympto, Mon Calamari, etc.) even with the hyperspeed, the ability to cross the galaxy is short time is not that important, when you have a galaxy to patrol, and thousands upon thousands of worlds to control. the Empire is what it sounds like: an Empire. no empire in history had the ability to send forces in remote areas in days, but even if they do, if you don't have large numbers, you won't survive.

    and again, the 25,000 ship count is either wrong, and there are possible hundreds of thousands of ships, or either its right and it easily outmatches the feds, klingon, etc. in firepower.

  9. #22309
    Quote Originally Posted by George1 View Post
    overkill yes...but they didn't just toke the Galaxy: many worlds didn't wanted imperial rule (New Plympto, Mon Calamari, etc.) even with the hyperspeed, the ability to cross the galaxy is short time is not that important, when you have a galaxy to patrol, and thousands upon thousands of worlds to control. the Empire is what it sounds like: an Empire. no empire in history had the ability to send forces in remote areas in days, but even if they do, if you don't have large numbers, you won't survive.
    This is all about tactics. You don't need Star Destroyers to patrol worlds you need patrol ships. Today our carriers don't patrol our borders their are out in international waters. The Coast Guard and the Navy's lesser ships patrol the American coast line.

    At this point were' just talking waste. The Federation Out Produced the Galactic Empire with less than a quarter of the same resources. And they need that Fleet. The Federation has had worthy opponents of the past hundred years with opponents of their own. The Dominion had a mere 30,000 ships in the Alpha Quadrant, In the Gamma Quadrant it must be 3 or four times that. The Klingons have at least 10,000, the Romulans and the Borg. Opponents a plenty.

    Especially the Dominion who can at least produce 2200 ships in a year.
    In comparison the Star Trek races seem to put the galaxy's resources to better use.

    and again, the 25,000 ship count is either wrong, and there are possible hundreds of thousands of ships, or either its right and it easily outmatches the feds, klingon, etc. in firepower.
    25,000 is canon.
    Stated by one of Timothy Zahns early books The Thrawn Trilogy.

  10. #22310
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    i just wanna say that a civilization able to build such a massive structure in that extremely small amount of time is either able of producing way beyond 25,000 ships, either has the individual ship firepower way superior to what it has been thought.
    of course, as i said to Kittamary, the DS' simple existence should have put the Galaxy at bay, reason for which the Empire didn't need more ships.

  11. #22311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
    At this point were' just talking waste. The Federation Out Produced the Galactic Empire with less than a quarter of the same resources. And they need that Fleet. The Federation has had worthy opponents of the past hundred years with opponents of their own. The Dominion had a mere 30,000 ships in the Alpha Quadrant, In the Gamma Quadrant it must be 3 or four times that. The Klingons have at least 10,000, the Romulans and the Borg. Opponents a plenty.
    out-produces when it comes to ships you would mean? could they build the DS? the DS2? thy shall out produces the Empire when it can.
    Especially the Dominion who can at least produce 2200 ships in a year.
    In comparison the Star Trek races seem to put the galaxy's resources to better use.
    depends. they didn't had the entire galaxy. resources invested in the DS obviously would have been at better use in SD manufacturing, but the Empire had this station build. why? psychological effect! you don't need to launch a nuke at every one of your enemy: just intimidate him.


    25,000 is canon.
    Stated by one of Timothy Zahns early books The Thrawn Trilogy.
    well, NOW THAT'S PROOF! all that was before was numbers plainly estimated by low mind trekkies.Like Darkstar. he just trowed in a number he liked.
    well, this leaves the second option.

  12. #22312
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    by now.

  13. #22313
    Quote Originally Posted by George1 View Post
    out-produces when it comes to ships you would mean? could they build the DS? the DS2? thy shall out produces the Empire when it can.
    Well the point isn't if they can build it...it's that they wouldn't build it.
    Eggs in One Basket

    Trek has never needed Massive space stations to destroy a planet.
    Most people in this discussion already know all the WMD's of Trek and they are real, small, and relatively easy to produce. In the end None of the Star Wars WMD's amounted to much of anything and never assured palpatine's rule.

    Even Han Solo made fun of the Emperors issues with size.
    The playing field is looking pretty level now. It's basically down to speed.

  14. #22314
    Minister of Technology
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    I would just point out that the 25,000 number is just Imperial Star Destroyers. It's not counting all the other ships of the line from the Carrack Escort Cruisers to the Venerator Star Destroyers to Victory Stary Destroyers and so on.

    The Empire had literally millions of ships, not counting Starfighters, Assault Shuttle and Light Transports.

  15. #22315
    Minister of Technology
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    Also, the first DeathStar did take 19 years to perfect, mostly becuase of the weapons system. There was a second Battlemoon built at the same time known as the Hand of Emperor, but it was not equiped with a superlaser.

    BTW the construction time for the Second Death Satr was six months from beginning to the stage we see in RotJ. It was largely constructed in secret and all material shipments to the Moon of Endor were done under the table of a single shipping business loyal to the Emperor. The first hint of it's construction was an intentional leak of information.
    Last edited by TW Scott; 01-07-11 at 07:29 AM.

  16. #22316
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    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Also, the first DeathSatr did take 19 years to perfect, mostly becuase of the weapons system. There was a second Battlemoon built at the same time known as the Hand of Emperor, but it was not equiped with a superlaser.

    BTW the construction time for the Second Death Satr was six months from beginning to the stage we see in RotJ. It was largely constructed in secret and all material shipments to the Moon of Endor were done under the table of a single shipping business loyal to the Emperor. The first hint of it's construction was an intentional leak of information.
    exactly!
    the rebels would have never found out until the station was completed, at which point they were dead.
    also, imagine the ship needed to ship all the materials for the DS2. the last time i checked, that alone would surpass the federation.

  17. #22317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
    Well the point isn't if they can build it...it's that they wouldn't build it.
    Eggs in One Basket
    Trek has never needed Massive space stations to destroy a planet.
    Most people in this discussion already know all the WMD's of Trek and they are real, small, and relatively easy to produce. In the end None of the Star Wars WMD's amounted to much of anything and never assured palpatine's rule.
    yeah, alright, but COULD they do it? the answer is NO, at least not the feds, klingond etc. combined.
    Even Han Solo made fun of the Emperors issues with size.
    The playing field is looking pretty level now. It's basically down to speed.
    i'm not sure what you mean by level. but in regard of speed, SW is superior. you might throw in the slipstream drive or whatever its called, but that was just on one ship, and it almost killed them.

  18. #22318
    That which cannot be known Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by George1 View Post
    yeah, alright, but COULD they do it? the answer is NO, at least not the feds, klingond etc. combined.
    i'm not sure what you mean by level. but in regard of speed, SW is superior. you might throw in the slipstream drive or whatever its called, but that was just on one ship, and it almost killed them.
    You will, of course, prove this? I mean, shit, if they wanted to be a really, really evil set of bastards... tell me, what do you think a Genesis Device would do to a Death Star? Considering there is no way to stop it's matrix once set in motion...

    Oh, and Quantum Slipstream did not "nearly kill them"... it's the fact that Voyager and Co are completely retarded that nearly killed them.

    "Herp Derp we can't see far enough ahead to make the necessary adjustments"

    "Herp derp, instead of finding a way to boost our sensor ability, why not send a shuttlecraft ahead of us and trust Harry "Dumbass" Kim to TELL US what to do"

    "HERP OKAY!"

    Seriously, that was perhaps the WORST way to handle that problem EVER.

    And yet, those idiots got a Transwarp Coil to function for a short while...

    *shakes head* At times I REALLY hate that show... heh...

  19. #22319
    Okay Georgy U go around just like TW and say a bunch of stuff that realitivly makes sense. SW for speed I can (grudgingly admit) that the smaller craft can go faster than the shuttlecraft on ST but you fail to see that some of the other small craft from ST can go toe to toe with your SW ships. But thats all I see about your discussions and with ST Voyager series.............. its the same things as the clone wars interesting but not full of helpful info,so I guess that really doesn't help you much.

  20. #22320
    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    I would just point out that the 25,000 number is just Imperial Star Destroyers. It's not counting all the other ships of the line from the Carrack Escort Cruisers to the Venerator Star Destroyers to Victory Stary Destroyers and so on.

    The Empire had literally millions of ships, not counting Starfighters, Assault Shuttle and Light Transports.
    25,000 is canon.
    Millions is certainly contradictory to the Vong invasion.
    They did not have millions of ships for the Battle of Ebaq Nine. It was hundreds.

    I quote from the Book Destiny's Way as the the Smugglers Alliance led the battle with a few divisions of Republic ships.
    {Han shrugged. "They're fleeing but they still outnumber us, let 'em go." ....He rolled the Millennium Falcon toward the enemy and throttled up...
    The enemy ships-hundreds of them-got nearer and nearer.]
    ~ Destiny's Way; Chapter 25, page 402

    This was typical of the Vong war and I am sorry TWSCOTT but there simply was never enough simultaneous engagements to justify why we never saw the republics MILLIONS of ships in ACTION...or why the the forces of the Imperial Remanent was necessary in the final Battles or for that matter why the Smugglers Alliance was leading the battle on Ebaq 9. Or why they needed hyperspace mines the take out a 2/3's of the Vong fleet before they could handle the remains....

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