Star Wars vs Star Trek

[OriTS]

Not related to the debate... so the ICS, which you insist is fully cannonized (despite the fact that it is C Cannon and thus overridden by the G Cannon Movies and TV Series), is not related to this debate?

Kay, while I admit I don't care much for Wars, I must state that this doesn't decanonize it.

[Kittamaru]

Kay, while I admit I don't care much for Wars, I must state that this doesn't decanonize it.

I'm not saying it does - however, in any instance where the movies/shows contradict what the ICS says, the movies/shows overrule the ICS.

[TW Scott]

I'm not saying it does - however, in any instance where the movies/shows contradict what the ICS says, the movies/shows overrule the ICS.

However you have yet to show any incidence where the movie does decanonize the ICS.

To do so you would have to show:

A Heavy Turbolaser failing to destroy something that 200 gigatons would destroy. You cannot find in any movie an example of that.

[George1]

Not related to the debate... so the ICS, which you insist is fully cannonized (despite the fact that it is C Cannon and thus overridden by the G Cannon Movies and TV Series), is not related to this debate?

Okay then...

canon is SW is divided in a five. only 3 are to be used. G canon being the movies and any note from Lucas, T-canon, the Clone Wars and any tv series, and C canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. there is also s canon, which i don't use and non canon.
only G,T and C canon are used in this debate.

[George1]

I'm not saying it does - however, in any instance where the movies/shows contradict what the ICS says, the movies/shows overrule the ICS.

you have not showed any contradiction with the movies. SHOW ME ONE. ONE.
that's all i ask. until you prove that, the ICS is acceptable evidence, like it or not.

any way, i got far from my intention. i only wanted to give Apocalypse2001 a site with the schematics. nothing more. then you jump in yelling its out of context. WTF?

[Kittamaru]

you have not showed any contradiction with the movies. SHOW ME ONE. ONE.
that's all i ask. until you prove that, the ICS is acceptable evidence, like it or not.

any way, i got far from my intention. i only wanted to give Apocalypse2001 a site with the schematics. nothing more. then you jump in yelling its out of context. WTF?

I would hardly say what I posted constitutes yelling. It was simply clarifying that you stick to the ICS like gospel even when it has been disproven.

I need not post any contradictions - this has already been done time and time again, by saquist, myself, and at least a half dozen others.

Given your penchant for ignoring this evidence, backed by mathematical, photographic, and dialogue proofs, I really don't see the point in arguing with you any longer - those that are willing to accept simple logic will do so, and in doing so they will realize that, while the ICS is a very pretty picture book with awesome "fluff", it's just that - a picture book with fluff, not to be taken seriously.

If you really want to know why nobody with an ounce of common sense takes the ICS seriously:
Read This

Notable information - the movie was not even FINISHED when the ICS came out...

Hans, Richard, Simon and I started at the Ranch in the early days of March 2001, about fourteen months before the movie was reported complete. Therefore our first exposure to the movie was a vast mass of concept art and reference photos. I read the script and spent my first morning writing detailed notes about it. We all spent an afternoon at ILM examining some of the models. Iain Morris at LF sent updated concept art and stills from the movie as they became available. I think we accumulated a trove of several GB of images.

So, you can see, a vast majority of his "figures" are based on concept art and script, not the movie itself.

(Incidentally, Wayne Poe has provided a quote which helps to further establish the facts in the interview:

""People might wonder about whether or not interviews are official. Every word I wrote in the interview had to be approved by Lucy Wilson before TFN could post anything." ---Curtis Saxton")

One perfect example of why his numbers are craptastic:

Take, for instance, Boba's several shots against Obi-Wan on the Kamino platform. In the canon novelization, we're told that these shots drained the energy packs of the weapon.

Now, again, those shots DRAINED the energy packs of the weapon as per the script, what we see, and the novelization:

"... Slave I's cannon went silent, the energy pack depleted for the moment."

The discrepancy rests with the firepower figures given for that weapon in the ICS . . . 600 gigajoules, or 143 tons of TNT, per shot. In other words, Saxton claims that the numerous shots shown above depleted the energy packs of a weapon which is usually capable of firing much more powerful shots. Let's say, just for argument's sake, that the platform explosions were equivalent to 25 kilograms of TNT, and that it was one shot from the guns instead of several. That would mean that the energy packs were depleted by a shot over 5,700 times less powerful than a standard shot.

For a comparison, let's look at one of the nuclear tests conducted by the United States. In December of 1964, during the "Sulky" test, a small nuclear weapon of 0.092 kilotons yield (about 385 gigajoules) was placed 27.1 meters underground. When detonated beneath the granite, it managed to produce sufficient fracture damage at the surface to create a rare retarc, 24 meters wide. With a detonation closer to the surface, this would've been a 24 meter crater, given the "chimney" effect of underground detonations.

Note how, in the platform pictures above, there is no 24 meter blast area, nor anything close to it, even from all of the shots put together. Obi-Wan, standing right next to the explosions, was barely moved by comparison.

Oh, but wait, people claim "the packs were still charging"... okay... we have an answer to that:

Some apologeticists have gone great lengths to try to rationalize this. One of the most common efforts is to claim that the energy packs mentioned in the novel were still charging, though no such statement is made in the novel, nor can such a thing be inferred from it. We're told that "Boba fired up the energy packs and clicked off the locking mechanism of the main laser", and that's it. Even assuming that the packs were not charged, however, they had at least a full second in which to charge up . . . it therefore would've taken an additional 5,700 seconds (95 minutes) for them to have charged to the ICS levels, and that's just for one ICS-level shot. Another maneuver is to attempt to claim that energy weapons and nuclear weapons don't act in the same manner, as if we're supposed to believe that a small area of very high energy density won't expand the same way because of where the energy came from.

So, either these things take around an hour and a half to charge enough for ONE full power shot, or there is some MAJOR wankage going on here.

Funny enough, he even went over your asteroid destruction scene:

See Fett Smack an Asteroid

So, in short, right there, we have a ship who's claimed firepower is VASTLY in excess of what we EVER actually see on screen.

And the list goes on and on... but I await your "BUT BUT BUT"s to see if it's even worth continuing to list them.

To ice this cake:

One person Saxton has responded to was Wong's cohort "Ender" from the SD.Net BBS, who had this to say:

"I emailed him about how he achieved the values for the 900 Gigajoule
Blaster at the tail of Slave 1. He said that he went by the damage it is
shown to do to other vessels in the comics in battles and assumed that Boba
dialed down the power in the movie [...]. He chose official over canon."

If indeed the choice was made to accept a comic book over canon, then (a) our point is proved and (b) that's just awful. It's even worse when you consider that, if it was determined that what Slave I had done to other vessels represented almost 0.15 kilotons of firepower, then similarly inflated EU values (in line with the inflated BDZ calcs, and as opposed to even the pre-existing canon) must have been used.

[Kittamaru]

By the way:

If you want to get a glimpse into the, hm, mental stability of some of the Pro-Wars debaters at StarDestroyer.net...

Just Read This

It is quite disturbing... but I'll post it here for you to see:

Wayne Poe
203 N. 39th St.
Hattysburg, Mississippi, 10:55pm.

The black van slowed to a stop in front of the apartment house. Its leaf
springs groaned with relief as its occupants exited the vehicle, and stood
in front of it. Three black clad men stared up at the target apartment, each
of them holding an instrument of destruction. As if by unseen signal, the
trio suddenly started toward the building, purposeful strides a testament to
their awful intent.

The pounding on his apartment door was wholly unexpected, making him spill
most of the Fruit Loops all over the computer keyboard in front of him,
where the sugary milk intermingled with other, less palatable stains.
DarkStar stared at the closed door to his apartment, wondering who it could
possibly be. He hadn't had money for takeout for months.

Shakily, DarkStar saved the document he was typing on his computer, then
stood from his milkcrate he was sitting on, and approached the door.

"Who is it?" he asked.

His answer came in the form of splintering wood, as his door disintegrated
in front of him. DarkStar flung his arms in front of his face, as he was
thrown to the potato sack covered floor. When he looked up to where the door
was, he saw three men filling the doorway. The looks on their faces left no
doubt in his mind that they were delivering nothing but torment.

One of the men stepped forward. He was heavyset, and carried a black
aluminum baseball bat.

"Are you.DarkStar?"

"Who.who wants to know.?"

The bat whistled in the air, striking DarkStar directly on his bald pate. He
spun, was thrown into a pile of clothes, where he screamed as he held his
head in his hands.

"WHAT THE FUCK? WHAT THE FUCK?"

The heavyset man walked over to DarkStar, and crouched in front of him.

"I'm only gonna ask you this once more," the man said, a heavy New York
accent peppering his words. "Are you DarkStar?"

"Y-YES!" DarkStar screamed.

The man stood, smiled, and offered a hand to help DarkStar to his feet.
Reflexively, DarkStar took it, and was hoisted to his feet. He began to ask
a question, when once again the bat swung again, slamming into his left
kneecap. DarkStar screamed, slammed to the floor, holding his shattered knee
as he writhed in incredible pain. Quickly, he looked to see what the man was
about to do next. What he saw was the man's back as he stood near DarkStar's
computer, studying the screen. The two other men walked into the room at
that point, walked toward him, staring at him.

Shakily, DarkStar clapped his hands, and the room was illuminated with a
sickly yellowish glow from the single lightbulb hanging from the low
ceiling. The men stopped advancing. And simply stared at their victim. With
a thrill of fear, DarkStar recognized his late night (or was it morning?)
visitors.

"I know you, ALL of you!" he whined. He pointed to the man with the bat.
"You, you're.Dalton!"

Dalton simply stared at the pathetic excuse for a man. The other men
surrounded the human pile of shit, as he named them.

"Wong! What are you doing here? And..oh no..Poe? Is that."

The huge man named Poe backhanded DarkStar full in the mouth, sending him
crashing through piled trash in a corner. The man named Wong picked up one
of many thick document lying near the computer. After a cursory examination,
he flipped through the pages, his eyebrows arching in realization.

"He really CAN'T afford a TV. These are screencaps of the StarWars movies he
's printed from the internet and made into a flip-book."

"So that's why he's so completely wrong about the facts of the films,"
Dalton observed.

DarkStar began to protest, but Poe suddenly grabbed him by what little hair
he had and pulled him to a standing position. Poe stood directly in front of
him, staring him down. He spoke in a quiet, menacing whisper.

"The canon policy, as is properly understood and implemented by everyone
with a functioning brain, is that the movies, scripts novelizations, and
radio plays are canon. The EU materials are officially accepted Star Wars
fact, where the do not contradict the canon."

"I beg to differ," DarkStar said. "The proper-"

He never finished his sentence, as Poe interrupted his spiel by grabbing the
back of his head and slamming his face into the computer desk. Poe then
grabbed DarkStar again, and slammed his face even harder into the drywall of
DarkStar's apartment.

"NO! GOD IN HEAVEN STOP!!" DarkStar pleaded through broken teeth and busted
lips, as Poe stood in front of him once again.

Poe stared at DarkStar, willing the whiny little bastard to be quiet. When
he was satisfied, he spoke once again.

"The canon policy, as is properly understood and implemented by everyone
with a functioning brain, is that the movies, scripts novelizations, and
radio plays are canon. The EU materials are officially accepted Star Wars
fact, where the do not contradict the canon."

DarkStar stared into the eyes of Poe, seeing the deadly evil menace behind
them.

"Yes, yes..I agree." He cried.

Satisfied, Poe turned as if to go. DarkStar breathed a sigh of relief.
Suddenly Poe spun around, a ham sized palm slamming into DarkStar's face.
DarkStar screamed, then turned to Poe again. Poe stared at DarkStar once
more, daring him to retaliate. When none came, Poe backhanded the pathetic
bastard again, watching DarkStar scream like David Spade on helium. He faced
DarkStar once more, and waited. Goading him to take a swing. When none came,
Poe spat in DarkStar's face, then stood his ground, stared again. Nothing.
Disgusted, Poe turned and walked away.

As he did, the man called Wong walked over, and stood over the shaking
excuse for a man.

"The Death Star," Wong began, "Has the ability to destroy a planet.."

"Through a special chain reaction, which we see when it fires on the
unshielded surface of Alder.."

Wong walked over to DarkStar's computer, and ripped the keyboard from the
tower. He advanced on DarkStar, who back away, limping toward the back wall
of his apartment. Wong swung the keyboard, connecting with DarkStar's
already ruined face, then proceeded to beat the cowering, screaming man with
it until only a few pieces of the keyboard were left.

Dalton walked over and pounded to bat into DarkStar's ribs. Poe came over to
deliver a few well placed devastating kicks.

"PLEASE! PLEASE STOOOP!" DarkStar screamed again.

Poe and Dalton withdrew slowly, and walked toward the front door. Wong
crouched near the fallen asshole. DarkStar stated into the eyes of his
superior.

"The Death Star," Wong began...

Yes... they are that crazy.

[Stray Dog5]

So wow even Star War wookies go crazy on each other well that sucks oh well while the wookies beat each other up, we trekkies are going to go get some popcorn and discuss the fundimentals about why no one in the SW universe can shoot straight and ST can with better weapons.

[Apocalypse2001]

However you have yet to show any incidence where the movie does decanonize the ICS.

To do so you would have to show:

A Heavy Turbolaser failing to destory something that 200 gigatons wopuld destroy. You cannot find in any movie an example of that.

...... here they go again. Repetition ad nauseum...

[Kittamaru]

It's all they have to stand on TBH... they know they can't refute the proof, so they simply try to ignore and avoid it...

[TW Scott]

...... here they go again. Repetition ad nauseum...

as if the commetns about the possible non-canon nature of the ICS isn't repeated ad nauseum. You cannot have your cake and eat mine as well.

[Kittamaru]

as if the commetns about the possible non-canon nature of the ICS is ny repeated ad nauseum. You cannot have your cae and eat mine as well.

well, I don't know if they are "ny repeated ad nauseum"... they are repeated, however, every time the ICS comes up because, sadly for you, it's the truth.

And nobody wants "your cae", whatever that is



L2 Type plzkthnx... you don't have an excuse for your consistent poor spelling... or do you

It would explain a lot...

[TW Scott]

Listen, It is fine to bring up the ability for the ICS to be disproven, WHEN you are disproving it. To do otherwise is not a valid debate tactic. Spreading doubt over and established fact without evidence showing why there should be doubt is a dirty tactic. Only the truly desperate would use it.

[Kittamaru]

Listen, It is fine to bring up the ability for the ICS to be disproven, WHEN you are disproving it. To do otherwise is not a valid debate tactic. Spreading doubt over and established fact without evidence showing why there should be doubt is a dirty tactic. Only the truly desperate would use it.

Truth be told, only the desperate and/or gullible cling to a book riddled with poor math, fallacious jumps of logic, and general discredited labeling. For gods sakes man, it is a book intended for children.

[OriTS]

Aye, generally universes like Stargate and Warhammer 40,000 are usually believed to be in the gigaton range, and even then there are arguments against that. Star Wars and Star Trek firepower is just all over the place, and people debate for numbers multiple orders of magnitudes apart.

Edit: Are you the Kittamaru from Spacebattles?

[George1]

Kit, i've read all of those, thanks for the lecture.
but it's not proof that the ICS is NOT canon. again you fail.

[George1]

I would hardly say what I posted constitutes yelling. It was simply clarifying that you stick to the ICS like gospel even when it has been disproven.

its canon still, therefor i can take it as a gospel. and again, it is not disproven. only by you trekkies.

I need not post any contradictions - this has already been done time and time again, by saquist, myself, and at least a half dozen others.

haha, funny, but no. go ahead with the delusion. its not been disproven. its just a trekkie delusion.

Given your penchant for ignoring this evidence, backed by mathematical, photographic, and dialogue proofs, I really don't see the point in arguing with you any longer - those that are willing to accept simple logic will do so, and in doing so they will realize that, while the ICS is a very pretty picture book with awesome "fluff", it's just that - a picture book with fluff, not to be taken seriously.

i take everything you call "proof" seriously. the ICS is a book that stands against delusional people who dare talk to me like that when they denied every shred of proof i provided.

[QUOTE]
If you really want to know why nobody with an ounce of common sense takes the ICS seriously:
Read This

interesting, but no. that site is another trekkie delusional site. again, Saxton is an astrophysicist. his work is canon and you just don't like i.

Notable information - the movie was not even FINISHED when the ICS came out...

aha, and that proves what?

So, you can see, a vast majority of his "figures" are based on concept art and script, not the movie itself.

unfortunately that only proved they toke seriously everything. they followed thr concept art, and their work is not in contradiction with canon.

(Incidentally, Wayne Poe has provided a quote which helps to further establish the facts in the interview:

""People might wonder about whether or not interviews are official. Every word I wrote in the interview had to be approved by Lucy Wilson before TFN could post anything." ---Curtis Saxton")

One perfect example of why his numbers are craptastic:
Now, again, those shots DRAINED the energy packs of the weapon as per the script, what we see, and the novelization:

and yet, later in the asteroid belt, it vaporized several asteroids in multiple shots. wow, yes, DRAINED!

Oh, but wait, people claim "the packs were still charging"... okay... we have an answer to that:
So, either these things take around an hour and a half to charge enough for ONE full power shot, or there is some MAJOR wankage going on here.
Funny enough, he even went over your asteroid destruction scene:

Obviously, you never ever watched the actual movie.

See Fett Smack an Asteroid

again this delusion site.

So, in short, right there, we have a ship who's claimed firepower is VASTLY in excess of what we EVER actually see on screen.
And the list goes on and on... but I await your "BUT BUT BUT"s to see if it's even worth continuing to list them.

again, you are delusional sir. go see a doctor. it never says anywhere the shots were at full power, except the novelization, which is know to exaggerate things. but you and other delusional trekkies go on ahead and don't even consider what is excluded as canon. you see, the novelization has parts that are not canon. this is one of them. the shots were not at full power dude. get over it.

"I emailed him about how he achieved the values for the 900 Gigajoule
Blaster at the tail of Slave 1. He said that he went by the damage it is
shown to do to other vessels in the comics in battles and assumed that Boba
dialed down the power in the movie [...]. He chose official over canon."

, yes, official that IS canon in its own right. dude, get some glasses.

If indeed the choice was made to accept a comic book over canon, then (a) our point is proved and (b) that's just awful. It's even worse when you consider that, if it was determined that what Slave I had done to other vessels represented almost 0.15 kilotons of firepower, then similarly inflated EU values (in line with the inflated BDZ calcs, and as opposed to even the pre-existing canon) must have been used.

again, you proved nothing. the comics are canon, and saxton inspire from them is normal if the book was to get ahead the film. the few parts in which it dose contradicts the movies are plain mistakes that everyone makes. but you see it doesn't contradict the scale you and that site claim. on the other hand, you can't prove that Boba didn't shot a low yield shot at oby wan. one full shot would have vaporized the who place including his father. there is absolutely no reason to dismember this argument.
and yet again, you lose.

[George1]

By the way:

If you want to get a glimpse into the, hm, mental stability of some of the Pro-Wars debaters at StarDestroyer.net...

Just Read This

It is quite disturbing... but I'll post it here for you to see:



Yes... they are that crazy.

nice fiction. what the fuck is this supposed to fucking prove?

[George1]

So wow even Star War wookies go crazy on each other well that sucks oh well while the wookies beat each other up, we trekkies are going to go get some popcorn and discuss the fundimentals about why no one in the SW universe can shoot straight

aha, well let's see...ITS A MOVIE, and they mysteriously can't shot only in the main characters...

and ST can with better weapons.

that is up to debate. in ST, the main characters ALWAYS get shoot when in battle...mostly. i can ask why Klingons rule a vast empire when they throw down their phasers and go ahead with swords and that fancy weapon...what's it called? any way, its fiction. the stormtroopers are actually good shooters. ask a weapon specialist that went to war how hard it is to shoot a target while being shoot at by them.

[George1]

It's all they have to stand on TBH... they know they can't refute the proof, so they simply try to ignore and avoid it...

wow, spoke the man who denied every piece of proof that i and the other SW fans provided, with back up. better shut up about that. don't wanna look more pathetic that already are.