Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Kittamaru]

Where is this coming from? The only work I need to do is debunk Saquist's hugely flawed calcs and sigh at his replies.



Que? Did you read what I posted?

Nuclear fusion only has 1% of the energy used, ala 220 kilotons per kilogram of fused material. M/AM is around 200 times more times that with the same amount of material. However, 500,000 kilograms of fusible materials generates 100 gigatons of energy. 2.5 kilograms of M/AM generates around 130 megatons. M/AM may be superior fusion, but a large quantity of fusible material can be much more powerful than a small amount of deuterium. According to Fedr808, 2.5 kilograms of deuterium is better than 500,000 kilograms of fusible material just because it's superior ton for ton. He doesn't understand that even if it's better generation, it doesn't change the equivalent energy whenever going up against an inferior form of generation and therefor 1 megaton of M/AM is not going to be equivalent to 100 megatons of fusible material.

So how do you rationalize the fact that we see the M/AM reactions in Star trek provide vastly MORE power than that?

See, the thing is, you're trying to directly compare sci-fi to real life, and that doesn't work well, especially when some things have no way to be rationalized in a way that actually makes sense... like ST power generation... or even SW power generation. I mean, shit, the amount of material required for SW power generation (even assuming a magical 100% efficiency shipwide) would result in such a dense fuel source that you'd, literally, be better off carrying around a black hole...it'd probably weigh less.

Also, what are your calcs for the asteroid vaporization - eg, material data sheets, energetic transfer, et al? Curious to know where you got that rather... unique... number from.

[ricrery]

So how do you rationalize the fact that we see the M/AM reactions in Star trek provide vastly MORE power than that?

... Since they canonically use M/AM? Anyway, Rise required 100 megatons to vaporize the asteroid that we saw. That puts a single Isoton at 500 kilotons. Thus, we would require 86 Isotons to match 1 kilogram of M/AM, and we know that the entire payload of the E-D is worth 73 kilograms of M/AM.

*snip*

Oh, but you see, I don't do that. I actually use physics in my analysis (how else could you even call it that? ), and that will not change.

Also, what are your calcs for the asteroid vaporization - eg, material data sheets, energetic transfer, et al? Curious to know where you got that rather... unique... number from.

The material was nickel iron (supported by the EU), the energy per kilogram was 7.6 megajoules. Oh, and the number is unique, how?

[Kittamaru]

... Since they canonically use M/AM? Anyway, Rise required 100 megatons to vaporize the asteroid that we saw. That puts a single Isoton at 500 kilotons. Thus, we would require 86 Isotons to match 1 kilogram of M/AM, and we know that the entire payload of the E-D is worth 73 kilograms of M/AM.

Mhm, and that comes from what, exactly? Not sure where you are getting the 100 megatons to vaporize thing from... granted, I don't recall the dialogue from the episode, so maybe they said it? Quotes would be helpful.

Of course, you're assuming the Intrepid and the Galaxy both use the same Photon Torpedoes (and we know there are multiple types).

Oh, but you see, I don't do that. I actually use physics in my analysis (how else could you even call it that? ), and that will not change.

Except if you want to do that, then explain to me how, via the laws of physics, an Inertial Dampener works. Or a time-dilation field (to stop the advanced progression of time whilst at hyperspace speeds). Or perhaps how a Warp Field works.

See, physics can only be applied so far before you start to run into some pretty strange barriers... especially when things we see on-screen directly contradict what physics tries to say.

The material was nickel iron (supported by the EU), the energy per kilogram was 7.6 megajoules. Oh, and the number is unique, how?

Your number is rather unique - for example, how did you determine the front-facing radius of the TL blast based on the size of the SD itself, considering you dont' know how far away it is from the SD (and it's approaching the camera in the shot you used, which would make it larger the further from the SD it was)

Just curious more than anything - I will admit to being impressed that you're actually posting images and using accurate scientific analysis here... but after so long of you BS'ing your way around things, you can understand why I'm a little... hesitant... to take what you say on just your word

[ricrery]

Mhm, and that comes from what, exactly? Not sure where you are getting the 100 megatons to vaporize thing from... granted, I don't recall the dialogue from the episode, so maybe they said it? Quotes would be helpful.

We see the asteroid's size on screen, and we get 25 MT to vaporize it uniformly. So, 100 MT, including the omnidirectional part.

Of course, you're assuming the Intrepid and the Galaxy both use the same Photon Torpedoes (and we know there are multiple types).

Actually, that one was a 200 Isoton torpedo, and normal torpedoes are 25 Isotons.

See, physics can only be applied so far before you start to run into some pretty strange barriers... especially when things we see on-screen directly contradict what physics tries to say.

And where have we run into these barriers?

Your number is rather unique - for example, how did you determine the front-facing radius of the TL blast based on the size of the SD itself, considering you dont' know how far away it is from the SD (and it's approaching the camera in the shot you used, which would make it larger the further from the SD it was)

Um, it was taken just after the vessel fired.

Just curious more than anything - I will admit to being impressed that you're actually posting images and using accurate scientific analysis here... but after so long of you BS'ing your way around things, you can understand why I'm a little... hesitant... to take what you say on just your word

What? I've done this a lot of times on SB.

[Kittamaru]

We see the asteroid's size on screen, and we get 25 MT to vaporize it uniformly. So, 100 MT, including the omnidirectional part.

Actually, that one was a 200 Isoton torpedo, and normal torpedoes are 25 Isotons.

And where have we run into these barriers?

Um, it was taken just after the vessel fired.

What? I've done this a lot of times on SB.

Thing is, what says that photons are omnidirectional? Especially considering that midway through TNG they seem to become directed-charge weapons, as the limitation of firing at "point blank" range is removed.

As for some of the barriers - well, Voyager flying out of a black hole for one. Star diving for another. Other random occurances can be written off as one-shots or outliers, but some things (like the insane power generation) cannot.

And yes, it was taken just after the vessel was fired - however, the movie plays at (likely) 30-45 frames per second - how long does it take TL bolts to cross distances between ships measured in the tens of kilometers, or hundreds of kilometers? Two or three seconds at most; this means in the span of ~ 90 frames, that bolt has moved anywhere from a few dozen to a few thousand meters (depending on the shot used of course). Which means TL bolts move pretty damn quick, and in one frame they cover a fair bit of distance - a distance we can't really quantify in that scene.

[ricrery]

Thing is, what says that photons are omnidirectional? Especially considering that midway through TNG they seem to become directed-charge weapons, as the limitation of firing at "point blank" range is removed.

Well, if they aren't actually omnidirectional, it just makes the Isoton unit less.

As for some of the barriers - well, Voyager flying out of a black hole for one.

What does this prove?

And yes, it was taken just after the vessel was fired - however, the movie plays at (likely) 30-45 frames per second - how long does it take TL bolts to cross distances between ships measured in the tens of kilometers, or hundreds of kilometers? Two or three seconds at most; this means in the span of ~ 90 frames, that bolt has moved anywhere from a few dozen to a few thousand meters (depending on the shot used of course). Which means TL bolts move pretty damn quick, and in one frame they cover a fair bit of distance - a distance we can't really quantify in that scene.

I watched the video at the slowest that I could. I paused it just before the turbolaser sound and got this.

[Kittamaru]

Well, if they aren't actually omnidirectional, it just makes the Isoton unit less.

Not really - I mean, the big problem with the scene in rise is that A) it wasn't a natural asteroid as they expected and B) it doesn't fit with other examples, such as the Ent-D vaporizing large quantities of Borg Cube (unknown material, but known density), the NX-01 vaporizing a mountain, and the ability of both the Defiant and the Constitution classes to rend a planet uninhabited in short order. If it takes the upper-limit of their firepower just to blow apart a small sized asteroid, these other actions wouldn't make sense at all.

What does this prove?

Just that some things in sci-fi cannot be rationalized with simple physics - sometimes you have to bend the bar a little bit to make things fit.

I watched the video at the slowest that I could. I paused it just before the turbolaser sound and got this.

Even at the slowest speed, it's still only so many frames per second - don't get me wrong, your estimate is one of the better ways to do it, but it still leaves some questions unanswered, and, iirc, is accurate with a margin of +/- 15% or so, depending on the camera's distance from the ship, speed of the TL bolt itself (which seems to vary from scene to scene), and the resultant distance the bolt "travels" in the first frame that it appears.

[ricrery]

Not really - I mean, the big problem with the scene in rise is that A) it wasn't a natural asteroid as they expected

What does this prove? They expected to vaporize it, with remains being 1 centimeter in diameter and less.

and B) it doesn't fit with other examples, such as the Ent-D vaporizing large quantities of Borg Cube (unknown material, but known density)

Known density? Hardly. One episode has a 2.5 million 15 foot Borg vessel, and another has debris from a ship massing far less than that. Also, Borg vessels are mostly hollow too. You can't quantify that scene.

the NX-01 vaporizing a mountain

When did that happen? All I remember was a mountain shattering.

and the ability of both the Defiant and the Constitution classes to rend a planet uninhabited in short order.

The first case is a vague claim and rather unreliable, the second one doesn't fit with multiple cases. Apparently, a Constitution can't generate 96 megatons without sacrificing itself, but can easily kill off a planet. More likely, that Kirk meant that they'd kill all life in the populated areas. Even Riker considered the damage done to the planet in Survivors massive.

If it takes the upper-limit of their firepower just to blow apart a small sized asteroid

And what about the times they've struggled with much, much less?

these other actions wouldn't make sense at all.

Given how vague, inconsistent, and unreliable they are, I doubt it.

Just that some things in sci-fi cannot be rationalized with simple physics - sometimes you have to bend the bar a little bit to make things fit.

Not really. See, if a universe makes it clear this material is not functioning with real life physics, but clearly defines it for everyone, then there isn't a problem. However, if another material isn't defined, but clearly unrealistic, you still have to rationalize it with physics.

Even at the slowest speed, it's still only so many frames per second - don't get me wrong, your estimate is one of the better ways to do it, but it still leaves some questions unanswered, and, iirc, is accurate with a margin of +/- 15% or so, depending on the camera's distance from the ship, speed of the TL bolt itself (which seems to vary from scene to scene), and the resultant distance the bolt "travels" in the first frame that it appears.

I still consider it much better than Saquist's analysis, anyway.

[Apocalypse2001]

@George1: how exactly is Kittamaru unable to sustain an argument?? He constantly sifts through the misdirection that 'people' like TW Scott and obviously ricrery throw around. They keep using misdirection/distractions by adhering to the stupid prosecutors of "it's-not-what-you-know, it's-what-you-can-prove" mentality. Well sorry guys *fart sound* it doesn't happen that way! Doesn't happen!!! -----

If you have visuals that can be backed up with APPROVED numbers beyond a reasonable doubt, then that is what is valid! Not the stupid propaganda and idiotic mathematical correlations that make no logical sense which the two aforementioned individuals keep spewing!; constantly repeating that shit over and over, foaming at the mouth like verbal diarrhea...!
Kittamaru, and Saquist, who is currently present, don't use this Catholic blind-faith-I-don't-want-any-examinations attitude. They actually look at something.
But when they, or others, can't get hard numbers for something, TW Scott and ricrery act like 6 year old's, and insult them and berate them as if THEY won. Which they never have.....!! So because they can't win an argument, even logically, they can't do anything but lower their self-esteem even more and attack somebody!

[Apocalypse2001]

I'm currently practicing for an upcoming charity concert that I'm doing, so I don't have enough time to argue some facts that I saw. I'll come back another day and do that. If I don't talk to any of you until the new year, have a good time. Tttyl.

[ricrery]

He constantly sifts through the misdirection that 'people' like TW Scott and obviously ricrery throw around.

Aww, he thinks he his post has truth in it. I'm afraid that your posts are about accurate as Bragg.

Not the stupid propaganda and idiotic mathematical correlations that make no logical sense which the two aforementioned individuals keep spewing!

That's funny, because that's exactly what Saquist is doing. Although he's allowed a pass because he supports your horribly inaccurate understanding of Trek and Wars. Sorry, little one, but you'd best stop bullshitting, because its gotten annoying ever since you started posting.

Kittamaru, and Saquist, who is currently present, don't use this Catholic blind-faith-I-don't-want-any-examinations attitude. They actually look at something.

No, Saquist constantly creates bullshit numbers using with a primitive understanding of math, just like you.

But when they, or others, can't get hard numbers for something, TW Scott and ricrery act like 6 year old's, and insult them and berate them as if THEY won. Which they never have.....!!

Given what you just said, I must admit, it's a shame that you didn't go to high school, or even middle school

It's also a shame that the mods don't seem to acknowledge your posts, and their laughable flaming contents, but this should come as no surprise

[Kittamaru]

What does this prove? They expected to vaporize it, with remains being 1 centimeter in diameter and less.

Indeed, but unless I'm mistaken you're basing your calculation on the fact that they couldn't vaporize that (thus trying to establish an upper limit for the photon torpedo); we don't know if they could have vaporized it knowing it was man-made, and thus increased the yield to compensate.

Known density? Hardly. One episode has a 2.5 million 15 foot Borg vessel, and another has debris from a ship massing far less than that. Also, Borg vessels are mostly hollow too. You can't quantify that scene.

Yes, and the calculations run on those scenes take into account the densities of those ships, and even compares the Borg Cube to the density of Voyager and the Ent-D for reference, giving us some nice, base-line numbers to use. Easily quantifiable, at least in the sense that we get good estimates.

And technically, ISD's/Galaxy Class/Voyager/et all starships are "mostly hollow" - after all, they are designed to carry people/stuff... you have to be hollow to do that.

When did that happen? All I remember was a mountain shattering.

They mention that the target mountain in question is similar in size to Mt. McKinley in Alaska - the fact that a huge crater is all thats left shows that the weapon is immensely powerful - yes, it was operating at 10x expected output, but only 10x - and they reproduced that effect (without damage) later on in the episode.

The first case is a vague claim and rather unreliable, the second one doesn't fit with multiple cases. Apparently, a Constitution can't generate 96 megatons without sacrificing itself, but can easily kill off a planet. More likely, that Kirk meant that they'd kill all life in the populated areas. Even Riker considered the damage done to the planet in Survivors massive.

The first claim is hardly unreliable, as the guy was willing to, quite literally, stake his life to that claim. The second one fits plenty easy - he was quite absolute in that "all life" would be removed from the planet aspect. And yes, the damage done in "Survivors" is massive... virtually everything is gone, and the planet has been pummeled, leaving it completely lifeless (no vegetation or life of any kind) save for the Uxbridge locale.

And what about the times they've struggled with much, much less?

Like when?

Given how vague, inconsistent, and unreliable they are, I doubt it.

You call them vague, inconsistent, and unreliable... but they still exist, and must be rationalized somehow.

Not really. See, if a universe makes it clear this material is not functioning with real life physics, but clearly defines it for everyone, then there isn't a problem. However, if another material isn't defined, but clearly unrealistic, you still have to rationalize it with physics.

And this happens a fair bit, especially with antimatter - obviously the output is far higher than it really should be, considering they measure the reaction at the molecular level (molecule by molecule) they obviously aren't dumping hundreds of kilos of M/AM into the reaction at once.

I still consider it much better than Saquist's analysis, anyway.

*shrugs* as long as you acknowledge that there are flaws in both, then that's what matters - that's part of debating a fictional topic - there is a lot that cannot be "proven concrete", and thus must be "proven beyond a reasonable doubt".

A good write up on the Phase Cannon in Enterprise: Phase Cannons

Something of interest:

In August of 2152, Reed proposed new tactical protocols that would increase the efficiency of Enterprise's weapons, including the phase cannons. While under the influence of radiation emitted from a nearby singularity, Reed implemented the new protocols without Captain Archer's permission.

Later, with the rest of the crew having succumbed to the radiation, Archer and T'Pol attempted to navigate Enterprise away from the singularity as quickly as possible by piloting the starship through a field of debris. When the need arose to use weapons against a large meteoroid that was in the ship's path, T'Pol worried that the phase cannons could not be charged in time. However, when a smaller piece of the meteoroid collided with the ship, Reed's tactical protocols initiated and the phase cannons were automatically brought online. T'Pol then used the cannons to destroy the remaining meteoroids, allowing Enterprise to safely escape the singularity. Following this incident, Reed's new security protocols were made standard procedure. (ENT: "Singularity", "Cease Fire")

Two of the Phase Cannons on the NX-01 were powerful enough to destroy a meteorite that, going by what we see on screen, was pretty massive even compared to the Enterprise itself (I'd reckon a diameter between 75 and 100 meters at least, and possibly much larger than the Enterprise itself, given that it was a fair distance from the NX-01, which has a width of 136 meters, and the asteroid STILL took up a fair width of the Enterprise on camera). Assuming the low end (75 meters) that gives us a 3.0 megaton output for a one second burst of the two phase cannons - bump it up to 125 meters (mid estimate) and you get 14 megatons... if we go a little crazy and assume that the distance was sufficient to put the asteroid at nearly 200 meters across (still reasonable given it's looming presence over the over 200 meter long Enterprise) we jump up to 60 megatons to destroy it (numbers provided via Wong's Asteroid Calculator, just a heads up)

Not bad for an absolutely ANCIENT ship

[ricrery]

Indeed, but unless I'm mistaken you're basing your calculation on the fact that they couldn't vaporize that (thus trying to establish an upper limit for the photon torpedo); we don't know if they could have vaporized it knowing it was man-made, and thus increased the yield to compensate.

How do you get that? No, that's not it at all. Truth is, they expected to mostly vaporize the asteroid, and we clearly know its size.

Yes, and the calculations run on those scenes take into account the densities of those ships, and even compares the Borg Cube to the density of Voyager and the Ent-D for reference, giving us some nice, base-line numbers to use. Easily quantifiable, at least in the sense that we get good estimates.

I forgot, what was the dialog in the Voyager episode?

And technically, ISD's/Galaxy Class/Voyager/et all starships are "mostly hollow" - after all, they are designed to carry people/stuff... you have to be hollow to do that.

Not the same, really. All of those have solid hulls, whereas the Borg Cube is full of holes leading into the vessel.

They mention that the target mountain in question is similar in size to Mt. McKinley in Alaska - the fact that a huge crater is all thats left shows that the weapon is immensely powerful - yes, it was operating at 10x expected output, but only 10x - and they reproduced that effect (without damage) later on in the episode.

That doesn't seem to fit with other instances. In TNG episode Pegasus, the crew had to waste most of their payload to destroy the asteroid, whereas that one phase cannon would have a yield good enough to shatter it.

The first claim is hardly unreliable, as the guy was willing to, quite literally, stake his life to that claim.

Reducing a planet to slag is quite clearly, vague. Slagging a planet can mean melting its crust, to just doing cosmetic surface damage. Even if he was so sure of himself about his claim, that doesn't mean he actually believed the Defiant would burn the planet's surface away. This is supported in TDiC where its quite clear that the weapons on used by the Romulan and Cardassion vessels are not crust slagging, despite the dialog stating that. If they had crust slagging firepower, the planet's visuals should have clearly been altered.

The second one fits plenty easy - he was quite absolute in that "all life" would be removed from the planet aspect. And yes, the damage done in "Survivors" is massive... virtually everything is gone, and the planet has been pummeled, leaving it completely lifeless (no vegetation or life of any kind) save for the Uxbridge locale.

That can be done with low megatons, or even kilotons. I mean, a vessel of the same class can't generate 96 megatons without sacrificing itself, and Survivors doesn't show much actual surface damage, excluding the oceans being boiled off. There is still vegetation, by the way. It's clearly visible in the background when they are on the planet.

Like when?

Well, Pegasus, Skins of Evil, Deja Q, Genesis, and others from TNG alone.

And this happens a fair bit, especially with antimatter - obviously the output is far higher than it really should be

Funny, I can say quite the opposite.

Two of the Phase Cannons on the NX-01 were powerful enough to destroy a meteorite that, going by what we see on screen, was pretty massive even compared to the Enterprise itself (I'd reckon a diameter between 75 and 100 meters at least, and possibly much larger than the Enterprise itself, given that it was a fair distance from the NX-01, which has a width of 136 meters, and the asteroid STILL took up a fair width of the Enterprise on camera). Assuming the low end (75 meters) that gives us a 3.0 megaton output for a one second burst of the two phase cannons - bump it up to 125 meters (mid estimate) and you get 14 megatons... if we go a little crazy and assume that the distance was sufficient to put the asteroid at nearly 200 meters across (still reasonable given it's looming presence over the over 200 meter long Enterprise) we jump up to 60 megatons to destroy it (numbers provided via Wong's Asteroid Calculator, just a heads up)

And just how was it destroyed? Trek asteroids tend to show lots of debris, so I would like to see a video or picture of this instance.

Not bad for an absolutely ANCIENT ship

Apparently, ships in Trek get weaker as the timeline progresses.

[Kittamaru]

That's my point - it's silly to assume ships in Trek are getting weaker as time passes - for example, Pegasus is an outlier because of how poorly it fits with the rest of Trek (as a whole not just a series).

And Borg Cubes dont' have holes leading to the inside... what makes you think that? Do you recall the close up from Q, Who, where the ship is repairing the damage as it pursues the Enterprise (it as quite clearly solid).

Also:

Hardly a porous surface - yes, there's lot of "sticky out" bits, but given the kind of firepower it can resist, I wouldn't dare call that hull "porous"

As for the Ent asteroid destruction - I don't have that episode handy - see if it's on YouTube - I'm bout to go make dinner, so I'll try to find it when I get back.

Pegasus, Skins of Evil, Deja Q, Genesis

Pegasus - Asteroid was under the effect of a Phase Cloak device, plus it was highly porous, thus requiring more strikes to blow their way out as there was lots of empty space to dissipate the damage.

Deja Q - blowing up the moon wasn't a problem at all - thing was, it'd put lots of fragments down and they couldn't take out all the fragments in time. In fact, simply "blowing it up" was Riker's first suggestion.

Genesis - why blow up the asteroids (and the entire field) when it was far simpler to just send in a shuttle? Also, why assume that the photon in question was a 100% power photon, and not just a demonstration of the new targeting software?

Skins of Evil - that... creature... thing... absorbed energy with no apparent damage whatsoever. I'm not sure what you're using as an example here (the destruction of the shuttle perhaps? Again, why would they use a full-power photon torpedo here, since the shuttle is unpowered, unshielded, and generally undefended?)

[Apocalypse2001]

Aww, he thinks he his post has truth in it. I'm afraid that your posts are about accurate as Bragg.

Who are you calling 'cupcake'?? It's not my problem you're homosexual. If you want some ass, go find someone who plays for the same team.

That's funny, because that's exactly what Saquist is doing. Although he's allowed a pass because he supports your horribly inaccurate understanding of Trek and Wars. Sorry, little one, but you'd best stop bullshitting, because its gotten annoying ever since you started posting.

You just proved my point. You don't like the truth, AND you can't disprove what I said, so you resort to belittling and bullying. Maybe you'll think twice if your head becomes paste. Oh wait, I forgot, you get a hard on now when somebody beats you black and blue. My mistake.

No, Saquist constantly creates bullshit numbers using with a primitive understanding of math, just like you.

Oh really? Raise you're hand if you have a doctorate -- oh wait, you can't; because you haven't even passed high-school. So sit down and shut-up.

Given what you just said, I must admit, it's a shame that you didn't go to high school, or even middle school
It's also a shame that the mods don't seem to acknowledge your posts, and their laughable flaming contents, but this should come as no surprise

Even more belittling because those boys beat you in school. I'd like to see you say that in person. Oh wait, you wouldn't, because you've been beaten so many times (as you've already stated in a previous post), you've forgotten what your name actually means.

Also, don't presume to know what my education is. And also I'm not stupid like you to need something as useless as 'middle school'.

EDIT: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ricrery

[Kittamaru]

EDIT: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ricrery

*facepalm* Apoc... just... just stop, please... playing e-thug isn't going to help anything....

For one thing... Middle School is a function of the districts separating the grades... ergo, grades 6,7,8 get their own building. It's similar to Jr. High, but with 6th grade thrown in. Other than that, it's the exact same thing... so I fail to see how anyone could "not need it" unless they skip those grades...

[ricrery]

Aw, he thinks I'm going to respond to him in that format . He also thinks that a term he could have put means anything to me, too . I must ask, do you really think I care what you think? I mean, none of your posts have ever been proof of... anything, except your consistent ignorance on the subject. Your insults are laughable too. Lord Khorak is so much better at it

[Apocalypse2001]

Aw, he thinks I'm going to respond to him in that format . He also thinks that a term he could have put means anything to me, too . I must ask, do you really think I care what you think? I mean, none of your posts have ever been proof of... anything, except your consistent ignorance on the subject. Your insults are laughable too. Lord Khorak is so much better at it

you already have, numerous times, dumb ass. You should see a doctor, you probably have Alzheimer since you can't remember something that happened hours ago, let alone days.

[Apocalypse2001]

*facepalm* Apoc... just... just stop, please... playing e-thug isn't going to help anything....

For one thing... Middle School is a function of the districts separating the grades... ergo, grades 6,7,8 get their own building. It's similar to Jr. High, but with 6th grade thrown in. Other than that, it's the exact same thing... so I fail to see how anyone could "not need it" unless they skip those grades...

First of all, middle-school was created for students who had trouble with the transition. I.e., they are/were weak emotionally, as is ricerony. He's proven that dozens of times; he even admitted to that a couple hundred pages ago. Period.

[ricrery]

WAAAAAAAH

Sorry, I don't understand what you want from your crying

However, this was not unexpected. As Psycho Mantis puts it "I can read you like an open book", and as Ciaphas Cain puts it "Jurgen, tea please"