View Poll Results: Which universe would win?

Voters
670. This poll is closed
  • Star Trek

    227 33.88%
  • Star Wars

    285 42.54%
  • Spaceballs

    51 7.61%
  • Farscape

    14 2.09%
  • Dune

    54 8.06%
  • Stargate

    39 5.82%

Thread: Star Wars vs Star Trek

  1. #22021
    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse2001 View Post
    You're attempting to distract again. Yoda DID lose his marbles, and Padma became hysterical.

    EDIT: Jango/Boba was the only person who was mentally well.
    What about Meh Wookies!

    They kicked droid and clonetrooper ass...

  2. #22022
    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum_Dragon View Post
    Do birds of prey have the ability to move their "wings"?

    In the Screenshots you took of the ship being fired upon, the wings look like they are angled downward, but when you show the screenshot of the same bird of prey next to a planet, the wings are obviously not angled down.

    EDIT: And what is this "outpost weapon" you speak of? Was this mentioned earlier in the thread and I missed it? Or is the weapon destroying the asteriod the same weapon firing upon the bird of prey?
    Indeed Birds of Prey can angle their wings in 3 position.
    Flight configuration: Wings level
    Attack configuration: Wings down
    Landing configuration: Wings all the way up.

    Indeed the same weapon that is firing on the asteroid is the same weapon firing on the shield-less Bird of Prey. The Cardassians Freighter was outfitted with a base mounted disruptor canon after the klingons destroyed the outpost. The disruptors were still intact.

    After the surprise attack on the Bird of Prey they beamed the Klingons on to the freighter and took the Bird of Prey for themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by NMSquirrel View Post
    i like pictures...lol..
    makes it so if i ever have a tech question i would ask you first saquist..
    (get a clue guys..)
    And there is more.

  3. #22023
    These Asteroids are blasted into Billions of piece...they are white hot which means they were slagged. They weren't even heated EVENLY like Ricery's "Calculations called for....The transmission of energy to the majority of the mass was INSTANT and that calls for far more Firepower than just a kiloton range explosion. From what we know now thanks to Kittamaru's find on explosions it's clear the reaction was intense enough in TNG BOOBY Trap to create a shock wave of material from the asteroid itself in the form of billowing clouds.

  4. #22024
    Quote Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
    Indeed Birds of Prey can angle their wings in 3 position.
    Flight configuration: Wings level
    Attack configuration: Wings down
    Landing configuration: Wings all the way up.
    Well I'll be a wookies uncle and call me Tribble, I didn't know that.

    These Asteroids are blasted into Billions of piece...they are white hot which means they were slagged. They weren't even heated EVENLY like Ricery's "Calculations called for....The transmission of energy to the majority of the mass was INSTANT and that calls for far more Firepower than just a kiloton range explosion. From what we know now thanks to Kittamaru's find on explosions it's clear the reaction was intense enough in TNG BOOBY Trap to create a shock wave of material from the asteroid itself in the form of billowing clouds.
    So how much energy if an asteroid just turns into a glow and is gone? Essentially vaporized like here? And while they look small in comparison to the star destroyer, remember how big the star destroyer is.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rnyWNoFb58 between 6:38 and 6:42?

  5. #22025
    Okay heres the problem with that scene. Perspective.
    If those asteroids were 40 wide (Like the Mike Wong of the Pro Star Wars camp says then they would look about as large as the Shield Domes on the top of bridge tower.

    But the Star Destroyer is at least one full Star Destroyer length away likely a schotch more and yet the asteroids are only about 3x the size in the 2D picture as the Shield Domes.

    The truth is...I can't even hazard a guess at how big these asteroids are...Perspective is clearly not on our side...there is no way to determine a common frame of reference. They could be 100 meter across or 10 meters across.

  6. #22026
    Quote Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
    Okay heres the problem with that scene. Perspective.
    If those asteroids were 40 wide (Like the Mike Wong of the Pro Star Wars camp says then they would look about as large as the Shield Domes on the top of bridge tower.

    But the Star Destroyer is at least one full Star Destroyer length away likely a schotch more and yet the asteroids are only about 3x the size in the 2D picture as the Shield Domes.

    The truth is...I can't even hazard a guess at how big these asteroids are...Perspective is clearly not on our side...there is no way to determine a common frame of reference. They could be 100 meter across or 10 meters across.
    Turbolaser beam size in reference to to the asteroid. Using that (rough math I admit) your looking about 10-20 meters wide. Bigger if you use the beam comparisons in a new hope when destroyer is chasing Tantive 4.

    Looking at the projectile hitting the bird of prey, and comparing it to the asteroid, I am guessing the asteroid in your screenshots is roughly the same size; I came up with around 15 meters with the Bird of Prey being the standard estimations of 110m long. Though it could be smaller...or bigger, but I think most commonly accepted of the sizes, and listed under canon in spots is 110m, -please see here http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/bop-size.htm , if the BoP is smaller, it places your asteroid at a much smaller size than 15 meters.
    Last edited by Quantum_Dragon; 12-16-10 at 11:10 PM.

  7. #22027
    Minister of Technology
    Posts
    4,149
    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum_Dragon View Post
    However in all fairness, the Storm Troopers, except in the boarding scene at the beggning of A New Hope, have been depicted in the other two movies as idiots. Though the clone troopers are so badass in the first three, makes me wonder what went wrong...
    Actually, i will agrue against this. The ONLY times Storm Troopers were displaying anything like ineptitude is when they were either mindcontrolled or ordered to let the pursued force go. Storm Troopers ruthlessly invaded the Hoth base, they quickly took over the Yantive IV, and even Obi Wan Kenobi mentioned that the "Only Imperial Storm Troopers are so precise." when remarking on how efficently the Jawa Ssandcrawler was destroyed.

  8. #22028
    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Actually, i will agrue against this. The ONLY times Storm Troopers were displaying anything like ineptitude is when they were either mindcontrolled or ordered to let the pursued force go. Storm Troopers ruthlessly invaded the Hoth base, they quickly took over the Yantive IV, and even Obi Wan Kenobi mentioned that the "Only Imperial Storm Troopers are so precise." when remarking on how efficently the Jawa Ssandcrawler was destroyed.

    Story wise yes (and canon), they are essentially suppose to be elite shock troops, but due to "Plot Armor" we hardly ever see this shown accept in the Tantive 4 boarding, which is what I was talking about in the beginning of A New Hope. The last time unfortunately we see any references to them being good is Obi-Wan referring to the "so precise". After that, even in at the invasion of Hoth, we don't really see them in action, well any positive action showing them to be something that should be feared. Yes we see them running around in the Hoth base, but we don't see much actual fighting

    EDIT: It also doesn't help that Obi-Wan says Jedi mind trick works on the "weak minded" and thus hurts the standing of the Storm Troopers even more when it gets used on them constantly...I would love to see an actual remake of Star Wars, with todays tech, and see the Storm Troopers shown in the same way the clone troopers in 2, and 3, were, because they are essentially the same thing.
    Last edited by Quantum_Dragon; 12-16-10 at 11:26 PM.

  9. #22029
    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum_Dragon View Post
    Turbolaser beam size in reference to to the asteroid. Using that (rough math I admit) your looking about 10-20 meters wide. Bigger if you use the beam comparisons in a new hope when destroyer is chasing Tantive 4.

    Looking at the projectile hitting the bird of prey, and comparing it to the asteroid, I am guessing the asteroid in your screenshots is roughly the same size; I came up with around 15 meters with the Bird of Prey being the standard estimations of 110m long. Though it could be smaller...or bigger, but I think most commonly accepted of the sizes, and listed under canon in spots is 110m, -please see here http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/bop-size.htm , if the BoP is smaller, it places your asteroid at a much smaller size than 15 meters.

    Okay I'm going to show my work.
    Using the images I've posted and using one addition image of the Cardassian Freighter from the site Ex Atris to determine full ship length by pixel.

    The Cardassian Freighter Measures

    http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...:1&um=1&itbs=1

    -Freighter 256 Meters Long. at 757 pixels (measured by gimp)
    The Segment in this picture measure 54 pixels Using a proportioin:

    256 = x
    757 54
    X= the last segment length in meters 18.26 Meters long

    --------------------------------

    Next we need to figure out how big the bolt is to the segment.



    This image is foreshorten thus we are getting a lesser number in this comparison that the true length.

    In this image:
    The segment = 172 pixels
    The bolt is =111 pixels

    x= Bolt by percentage comparison to the segment

    172 = 111
    100% x

    (The Bolt)x = 64.5% of the segement it is fired from.

    The bolt thus measures 11.61 meters across

    ----------------------------------------------



    In this image the bolt measures 23 pixels across (just short of the glow)
    The Asteroid measures 122 pixels across

    Since we know now that the bolt is 11 meters and some change....


    122 = x
    23 11.61

    so that means the asteroid is 61.5 meters across

  10. #22030
    Minister of Technology
    Posts
    4,149
    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum_Dragon View Post
    Story wise yes (and canon), they are essentially suppose to be elite shock troops, but due to "Plot Armor" we hardly ever see this shown accept in the Tantive 4 boarding, which is what I was talking about in the beginning of A New Hope. The last time unfortunately we see any references to them being good is Obi-Wan referring to the "so precise". After that, even in at the invasion of Hoth, we don't really see them in action, well any positive action showing them to be something that should be feared. Yes we see them running around in the Hoth base, but we don't see much actual fighting

    EDIT: It also doesn't help that Obi-Wan says Jedi mind trick works on the "weak minded" and thus hurts the standing of the Storm Troopers even more when it gets used on them constantly...I would love to see an actual remake of Star Wars, with todays tech, and see the Storm Troopers shown in the same way the clone troopers in 2, and 3, were, because they are essentially the same thing.

    Actually being an elite trooper does not mean you are neccesarily strong minded. Troopers by definition are used to taking orders and only thinking independantly within those orders. Sure they can be creative, but if someone with authority, real or perceived, tells them something they tend to go with it.

    Remebr Storm troopers are the Marine Grunts of the Star Wars universe, they aren't SEALs, Ranger, Special FOrces, Air Force Commandos or anything like that. They are simple infantry nothing more.

    The Empire does have more specialized troops: Imperial Guard, Noghri Commandos, the 501st and so on. However there is a high rate of defection among commandos as they are trained to think outside the box, which leads to them questioning Imperial policy

  11. #22031
    Your right Saquist,

    that conforms with the BoP being 110m as well, I just screwed up somewhere.

    I will double check my finding on the destruction of the asteroids, though I think it will still be about 10-20 meters in size, as that (20 meters) seems consistant with the smaller asteroids the Falcon and Ties are evading a lot in the movie.

    UPDATE: Did some checking, 30-40 meters is more accurate for the asteroids seen in the scene with the star destroyer, and for some of the asteroids the Millenium Falcon is dodging with persuing ties...the dodged asteriods were bigger than I remember after checking some screenshots.(oops). However I would say they would be no bigger than 40m at the max (for the common ones) in the scenes I have seen. (There are some much bigger ones dodged, but in comparison to the movement of the asteroids in the Star Destroyer scene (with the exception of debated bridge hit scene) again I would place those no bigger than 40m. Though some sources report 60m in instances, I don't find that entirely accurate for the asteroids in the Star Destroyer destroying roids scene.

    I would say 40m max, and place the absolute minimum at about 25 (you never see anything really close to 25 meters in any of the other scenes so its probably higher), still quite of bit of energy involved to destroy an asteroid in a flash with no debris. Though I am not sure how it compares in energy expenditure to the destruction of your 60m asteroid that has debris.
    Last edited by Quantum_Dragon; 12-17-10 at 11:13 AM.

  12. #22032
    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Actually being an elite trooper does not mean you are neccesarily strong minded. Troopers by definition are used to taking orders and only thinking independantly within those orders. Sure they can be creative, but if someone with authority, real or perceived, tells them something they tend to go with it.

    Remebr Storm troopers are the Marine Grunts of the Star Wars universe, they aren't SEALs, Ranger, Special FOrces, Air Force Commandos or anything like that. They are simple infantry nothing more.

    The Empire does have more specialized troops: Imperial Guard, Noghri Commandos, the 501st and so on. However there is a high rate of defection among commandos as they are trained to think outside the box, which leads to them questioning Imperial policy
    Good points.

  13. #22033
    Registered Senior Member
    Posts
    929
    Mwahahahhahah! I am finally back!

  14. #22034
    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum_Dragon View Post
    Your right Saquist,

    that conforms with the BoP being 110m as well, I just screwed up somewhere.

    I will double check my finding on the destruction of the asteroids, though I think it will still be about 10-20 meters in size, as that (20 meters) seems consistant with the smaller asteroids the Falcon and Ties are evading a lot in the movie.
    Okay, I've been trying to isolate the size of the Empire Strikes back asteroid in the video you gave and from another You tube video where the Falcon is leaving the field concerning the asteroid the ISD was destroying around the Falcon. (I have yet to create still from it because it's too fast but I'll keep trying)

    I recreated the first asteroid vaporization in a 3D program called sketchp. The Star Destroyer was already provided by the Warehouse. I used the Bridge Sphere on top of the tower to represent the asteroid and it seems that the asteroid COULD be 40 meters across.

    But there is a big HOWEVER.

    The camera lens focal length could be fooling us.
    I went back and played the scene in repetition about 15 times to see the lower most asteroid's movement. It is indeed very close to the camera and recedes quickly in size in just a FEW SECONDS as the other asteroids are vaporized around.

    It's not conclusive proof
    but in the same image there are asteroids striking the ISD moving at a high velocity and they are much smaller than the towers 40 meter wide shield globe, about a 1/5 it''s size) I get the impression that all these asteroid are all around the same size. (I need HD images to make good measurements though. The objects are just too small in the background)

    There are two other Howevers aswell.

    If perspective is screwing up the bold size
    If focal length of the lens is skewing the asteroid size then we can't use these images to determine the asteroid's sizes directly.

    We'll have to use The Millennium Falcon to discover the true size of the bolt because it is the only known factor we have. The guns on the ISD are completely INVISIBLE on the model.

    Type of explosion seems to indicate a volatile mixture in asteroid perhaps ice ammonia or that the turbo laser bolt travels faster than light (which wouldn't explain all the bad targeting) I'll get into that later.

    Screen shots coming next...

  15. #22035
    Hmmm...
    It looks like Wong was wrong again....

    The Wookiepidia says the Falcon is 25.6 meters wide, 34.75 meters long
    The Starwars.com says the Falcon is 26.7 meters long

    So we have a problem already.
    That led me to this site on Starwars.com talk about the true size of the Falcon.
    http://www.starwars.com/vault/books/...26.html?page=2

    Thus starwars.com agree with the Wookeepidia that the length is 114 feet = 34.7472 meters so we can go with the 25.6 width from the Wookie source.

    (Note Image shack has scaled this images to Forum Standard)
    (Note My measurements come from the original screen size screen shot from You Tubes Full Screen) 1440 x 900 These original sizes are sized in Gimp

    Falcon's width in this image is 589pixels
    The Turbolaser bolt in this image at it's smallest and closes diamter to the Falcon is 14 pixels (being generous) Being Really Really Generous the bolt is 20 pixels across in the image.

    Cross multiply the unknown (x) x the Falcon's Pixel Width of 589 comes to 589x
    Cross multiply the bolt's pixel width of 20 pixels with the Falcon's Length in meters 25.6 = 512

    Divide 589 by 512 = a bolt diameter of 1.15 meters.






    Which means...



    Using the Standard proportion with the information at hand.

    a 1.15 meter diameter bolt (really Generous)
    a 70 x 51 pixel asteroid (using the longest length) 70
    a 20 pixel diameter bolt (from the image above)

    That means the asteroid in the picture was 4.026367 meters across.
    WOW!! (That's the Generous number)

  16. #22036
    According to Wong's own caculator Vaporizing this rock would take LESS THAN Hiroshima Bomb of 18 Kilotons to vaporise at 7.5 kilotons...LESS THAN HALF....

    What do you guys think...
    This may completely debunk Mike Wong's power estimates.

  17. #22037
    Registered Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
    According to Wong's own caculator Vaporizing this rock would take LESS THAN Hiroshima Bomb of 18 Kilotons to vaporise at 7.5 kilotons...LESS THAN HALF....

    What do you guys think...
    This may completely debunk Mike Wong's power estimates.
    in this image
    you can see that the standard imperial procedure is to chase these kind of ships with TIE fighters, because precise hitting a small vessel like the Falcon with a SD main turbolasers is hard; so they send fighters.
    now in the first two shots, the bolt and the blast are just to small to come from a SD, but it looks kike a TIE fighter shot.
    now before you say anything, here's a better quality pic:

    notice the asteroid is pulverized, even thought the bolt is barely touching it! if that is just the special effect i don't know, but from the perspective, it doesn't seam that what you said above disproves anything.
    by the way, the Falcon is just underneath the asteroid, which it appears to be the same size. i am not really good at measuring pixels and distances, but if you guys can, you will see the same end results.

  18. #22038
    Quote Originally Posted by George1 View Post
    notice the asteroid is pulverized, even thought the bolt is barely touching it! if that is just the special effect i don't know, but from the perspective, it doesn't seam that what you said above disproves anything.
    by the way, the Falcon is just underneath the asteroid, which it appears to be the same size. i am not really good at measuring pixels and distances, but if you guys can, you will see the same end results.
    I need a series of shots or at least the shot of the Asteroid before it's vaporized or even better, the screen shot just as or before the bolt hits the asteroid and I can confirm your speculations.

  19. #22039
    Registered Senior Member
    Posts
    929
    Quote Originally Posted by Saquist View Post
    I need a series of shots or at least the shot of the Asteroid before it's vaporized or even better, the screen shot just as or before the bolt hits the asteroid and I can confirm your speculations.
    then how about watching the actual movie? you will see the exact thing.

  20. #22040
    I don't have the movie.

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