Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Kittamaru]

Unlikely, given that a large asteroid traveling at a fast velocity - that threatened the Millennium Falcon (a 35 meter vessel) to move out of way - did no damage to the unshielded hull of the Avenger.

Rice, you DO realize that a small asteroid moving at high speed (and we're talking something the size of a basketball) can, in space, impact another object hard enough to blow it to pieces, right? I mean, it's not like impacting a planet... there's no atmosphere to slow it down or anything. Something the size of a fleck of paint is a credible threat to the Space Shuttle... what do you think something, say, 20 meters across could do? How much impact energy do you think that has?

Now, apply that to a flat surface like the hull of the Avenger (flat in relation to where the asteroid hits).

Same with the bridge scene mate. That asteroid wasn't a small one - it was fairly big. And it cleave the bridge off like a damn sledgehammer.

So, yeah, running through an asteroid field with their shields down... that's pants on head retarded right there.

[TW Scott]

Rice, you DO realize that a small asteroid moving at high speed (and we're talking something the size of a basketball) can, in space, impact another object hard enough to blow it to pieces, right? I mean, it's not like impacting a planet... there's no atmosphere to slow it down or anything. Something the size of a fleck of paint is a credible threat to the Space Shuttle... what do you think something, say, 20 meters across could do? How much impact energy do you think that has?

Now, apply that to a flat surface like the hull of the Avenger (flat in relation to where the asteroid hits).

Same with the bridge scene mate. That asteroid wasn't a small one - it was fairly big. And it cleave the bridge off like a damn sledgehammer.

So, yeah, running through an asteroid field with their shields down... that's pants on head retarded right there.

Actually, the scene in question is in dispute. The ISD in question that was struck by the 35m radius asteroid was later seen chasing the Millenum Falcon completely unscathed, hull wise. This is by script, EU canon, and even by the rereleased movies showing the the holo of the Captain cringing from something. That same Captain was killed by Lord Vader later for losing the Falcon when it attached to back of the Bridge section.

Of course given that the Captain had to take a shuttle to the Executor to report in person and that the ISD could not detect the Falcon clearly shows tha the Asteroid did manage to damage at least the Holonet and some sensors. Still the bridge tower is there.


Oh and for those who claim the scene clearly shows the destruction of the tower becuase you can see throucgh it. Bollocks. RSA's gif did not take into account the movement of the ISD that was both forward and downward and faster than the backgorund Executor. Plus a cloud of debris in space would not clear that quickly if at all.

[Kittamaru]

Oh and for those who claim the scene clearly shows the destruction of the tower becuase you can see throucgh it. Bollocks. RSA's gif did not take into account the movement of the ISD that was both forward and downward and faster than the backgorund Executor. Plus a cloud of debris in space would not clear that quickly if at all.

No, his GIF does not, but he actually mentions that later - the forward momentum of the ISD is not sufficient to move it that far in just a few frames. Continuing to watch the original scene you can clearly see that the bridge IS, in fact, gone.

[Saquist]

How about you answer both?

I would be glad to if they were properly articulated. I can't guess as to your lack of understanding.

It was 200 meters in height, and 130 meters in length, going by my picture.

I'm not going on your picture. I'm going on the only relative source to both images and that is the torpedo pixel to pixel. I would be happy to accept your detailed objections but until then G2k has provided nearly irrefutable analysis on size and it's a reasonable estimate.

And no one is arguing that some pieces survived and fly away at several KM/s. We do know that they were heated to 6,500 K (above iron's boiling point), though.

We know there was an explosion. The background and distance didn't allow for us to discern debris.

SO WHAT?

Which judges distance from the cameras perspective.

AND THAT'S STILL BELOW A MEGATON.

According to MIT
1 Mile long Icarus would require a 1,000 megaton bomb to pulverize.
1 mile = 1 609.344 meters
If the Asteroid was a least as big as the ENTERPRISE D (700 meters) with a core as big as it's star Drive it would require at least, 434 MEGATONS to destroy which means each torpedo was 217 Megatons.

Data says that merely the remains of the Asteroid would be enough to cause planet wide damage

Data

Yes, sir. It is of sufficient
size and density to cause
planetwide damage.

Sir, the core is composed of
densely compressed nitrium and
chrondite. It is unlikely that
another photon torpedo will have
any effect on it.

With a core SO DENSE that another torpedo strike would have little effect
So you're wrong.Source: http://www.thespacereview.com/article/175/1

Or how about you provide evidence?

That's all I ever do.
But I would prefer not to waste any more time than necessary. So if you think the evidence is significant I suggest you do the research yourself.

They couldn't destroy the asteroid with an entire fleet with their weapons.

What are you talking about?
There was no fleet in this episode. I get the distinct impression you don't know what episode this is even though I've given you the name and the series. I think you should try looking up the information instead of responding ignorantly, Ricery.

And did you know that a weapon of such a yield would be seen GROWING in size and lasting for over a minute? Plus, look at the atmosphere. It's incredibly dense. The photon torpedo impacting would cause particles to hit each other quickly, causing friction, causing plasma, causing a bright flash. The plasma wouldn't be visible for long though, and would dissipate shortly afterwords. 1.4 gigatons my ass.

It's not that I didn't know.
It's that I don't care. I didn't care and apparently neither did the CGI artist that created the explosion so large. So I can only go on the size of what was shown.

LOL. Large CMEs (trillions of kilograms in mass) traveling at fast velocities (hundreds of thousands of meters per second) have high yields. Larger CMEs (quadrillions of kilograms in mass) traveling at faster velocities (millions of meters per second) have higher yields. The CME he used was far larger and faster than the one that hit the Borg Cube.

And completely irrelevant to what was shown in the episode.

Bullshit.

Yes, I know you are but lets stay on topic.

It doesn't change anything. Do you really think that it being an artificial CME is going to change anything?

What I think is that you're using uncanon explanations to explain canon.
In the script and dialogue the word "Coronal Mass Ejection" never appears. I'm sorry if that upsets you but I can not allow you to rewrite canon in your interpretation. The Thesis the Lieutenant was working on wasn't called Artificial Coronal Mass Ejections it was called a Superfluid Fusion Reaction. The Superfluid term alone is a direction contradiction of of the diffuse nature of the Corona and CMEs.

Don't throw a tantrum but you've lost that particular argument because you didn't follow the canon and chose your own interpretation. That's fine if this what you want to believe yourself but it's not factually supported. It's baseless speculation which I have no obligation to allow.

What?!

I can't guess as to your lack of understanding.
You'll have to use more than one word explanations to intelligently convey your thoughts.

[Saquist]

No, you PROVE they had shields up.

I need not prove anything.
It is logical to assume that the shields were were online in a dangerous situation.


Attempt Numer 3
RICERY
I offered you a reasonable opportunity to sit down and work out all the cases between Trek and Wars to find out the truth through averages and you just ignored it and threw up a huge number of cases in an attempt to intimidate me or PROOF BY VERBOSITY.

[jkwoodward]

here's how I see it.

The Borg in their arrogant quest for perfection found themselves lost in time in a galaxy far, far away. They presumed to assimilate an empire. But even the Borg weren't prepared for what would happen when they tried to assimilate the galaxy's most powerful Sith Lord. The Borg Nanites didn't stand a chance against such a concentration of midi-clorians and it was the Borg who were assimilated, becoming a vast army of light saber wielding extensions of Vader. Emperor Palpatine who had not surfaced for years after the "Borg Wars" was declared dead and Vader took his throne. The amalgamation of the midi-clorians and Borg nanites created something new and unexpected and as a result Vader could now be everywhere at once becoming both God and Emperor.

[Saquist]

I don't know about that. I've never known the midi-clorians to be a force of themselves...I thought they were conveyors of the force.

[ricrery]

I would be glad to if they were properly articulated. I can't guess as to your lack of understanding.

Concession accepted. You have NO idea what kinetic energy (or even energy for that matter) is.

I'm not going on your picture. I'm going on the only relative source to both images and that is the torpedo pixel to pixel. I would be happy to accept your detailed objections but until then G2k has provided nearly irrefutable analysis on size and it's a reasonable estimate.

I could care less what G2k said. He's nothing more than a Star Trek fanboy to me, just like you are.

We know there was an explosion. The background and distance didn't allow for us to discern debris.

One should be able to see debris if they watched it frame by frame, yet no one has ever said any.

According to MIT
1 Mile long Icarus would require a 1,000 megaton bomb to pulverize.
1 mile = 1 609.344 meters
If the Asteroid was a least as big as the ENTERPRISE D (700 meters) with a core as big as it's star Drive it would require at least, 434 MEGATONS to destroy which means each torpedo was 217 Megatons.

LOL, you fail at basic reading comprehension!

Pulverize: to reduce (as by crushing, beating, or grinding) to very small particles : atomize <pulverize rock>

Shatter: to cause to break or burst suddenly into pieces, as with a violent
blow.

Pulverizing=/=Shattering. Data said it was shattered, not pulverized. Shattering a 700 meter spherical asteroid requires 343 kilotons, well below a megaton.

Data says that merely the remains of the Asteroid would be enough to cause planet wide damage

Data




With a core SO DENSE that another torpedo strike would have little effect
So you're wrong.Source: http://www.thespacereview.com/article/175/1

When did I argue this? Shut up and pay attention for once?

That's all I ever do.

No you don't, and what you do show is laughable.

What are you talking about?
There was no fleet in this episode. I get the distinct impression you don't know what episode this is even though I've given you the name and the series. I think you should try looking up the information instead of responding ignorantly, Ricery.

I was talking about Tears of Prophets. Return to Grace has an asteroid of unknown composition and mass hit by a phaser several times smaller than it. Really, do you want argue that this is a megaton event?

It's not that I didn't know.
It's that I don't care. I didn't care and apparently neither did the CGI artist that created the explosion so large. So I can only go on the size of what was shown.

Then you concede it wasn't a gigaton, or megaton

And completely irrelevant to what was shown in the episode.

Yes, and what was seen supports a kiloton yield destroying a Borg ship.

Yes, I know you are but lets stay on topic.

Your "analysis" has been laughable, thus far.

What I think is that you're using uncanon explanations to explain canon.
In the script and dialogue the word "Coronal Mass Ejection" never appears. I'm sorry if that upsets you but I can not allow you to rewrite canon in your interpretation. The Thesis the Lieutenant was working on wasn't called Artificial Coronal Mass Ejections it was called a Superfluid Fusion Reaction. The Superfluid term alone is a direction contradiction of of the diffuse nature of the Corona and CMEs.

A ridiculous appeal to non-existent evidence; all we know is that the E-D destabilized the photosphere as to initiate the ejection - most likely altering the surface magnetism - to allow the great heat and pressure of the fusion reaction occurring in the core to propel the gases. There is no evidence that the matter itself has any special properties, much like the fact that the color of a tap has no literal relevance on the water that flows out of it. Do you have evidence that the behavior or chemical composition of the CME is any different from that of a spontaneously occurring CME, other than the fact that it was generated from an artificial destabilization of the surface which occurs on the surface of a star billions of times in her lifetime, with no indication that the characteristics were enhanced or altered to destroy the Borg vessel?

I can't guess as to your lack of understanding.
You'll have to use more than one word explanations to intelligently convey your thoughts.

I had no "errors". You are the one who doesn't seem to understand what he's talking about, and instead brings up nonsense. Very laughable nonsense.

[ricrery]

I need not prove anything.

Yes you do. You made the claim that it had shields up, you back it up. Christ, Kittamaru, how can take this imbecile's "analysis'" as even remotely viable?

It is logical to assume that the shields were were online in a dangerous situation.

And I showed you a quote where a large asteroid bounced harmlessly off an unshielded hull of an ISD. If it actually lost its shields in the asteroid field, it would have been destroyed long ago.

Attempt Numer 3
RICERY
I offered you a reasonable opportunity to sit down and work out all the cases between Trek and Wars to find out the truth through averages and you just ignored it and threw up a huge number of cases in an attempt to intimidate me or PROOF BY VERBOSITY.

Conclusion: Saquist is insane

[Kittamaru]

Concession accepted. You have NO idea what kinetic energy (or even energy for that matter) is.

... okay, I'm half tempted to report you for trolling here. He said (and I agree) that nobody has a clue WHAT your objection is...

I could care less what G2k said. He's nothing more than a Star Trek fanboy to me, just like you are.

And this is more obvious trololololing... you don't care about his (all too accurate) calculations because he's a fan of Star Trek and you aren't... you are saying, in other words, that you don't care about evidence you just care about what they support, and if they support Trek you won't believe them... care to L2Debate?

One should be able to see debris if they watched it frame by frame, yet no one has ever said any.

One should be able to see debris if they watched it frame by frame... yet no one has ever said any? Said any WHAT?

LOL, you fail at basic reading comprehension!

More accurately, you fail at basic writing and English skills bud...

Pulverize: to reduce (as by crushing, beating, or grinding) to very small particles : atomize <pulverize rock>

Shatter: to cause to break or burst suddenly into pieces, as with a violent
blow.

Pulverizing=/=Shattering. Data said it was shattered, not pulverized. Shattering a 700 meter spherical asteroid requires 343 kilotons, well below a megaton.

You're trying to argue semantics that aren't there... and failing at it... incredible.

When did I argue this? Shut up and pay attention for once?

1) You are making a statement and using a question mark... grammatical fail of the most basic level.

2) You did argue that... just a few posts ago.

No you don't, and what you do show is laughable.

See my second response.

I was talking about Tears of Prophets. Return to Grace has an asteroid of unknown composition and mass hit by a phaser several times smaller than it. Really, do you want argue that this is a megaton event?

Sure, why not.

Then you concede it wasn't a gigaton, or megaton

No, and attempting to "accept" concessions that don't exist is poor debating style.

Yes, and what was seen supports a kiloton yield destroying a Borg ship.

Hardly - do the damn math ya tool.

Your "analysis" has been laughable, thus far.

Actually, it's been rather concise and, if anything, a bit conservative...

A ridiculous appeal to non-existent evidence; all we know is that the E-D destabilized the photosphere as to initiate the ejection - most likely altering the surface magnetism - to allow the great heat and pressure of the fusion reaction occurring in the core to propel the gases. There is no evidence that the matter itself has any special properties, much like the fact that the color of a tap has no literal relevance on the water that flows out of it. Do you have evidence that the behavior or chemical composition of the CME is any different from that of a spontaneously occurring CME, other than the fact that it was generated from an artificial destabilization of the surface which occurs on the surface of a star billions of times in her lifetime, with no indication that the characteristics were enhanced or altered to destroy the Borg vessel?

So you know how performed a fictional (and likely impossible) action with fictional (and likely impossible) technology to cause a fiction (and maybe possible) localized stellar event? Wow... just... just wow...

I had no "errors". You are the one who doesn't seem to understand what he's talking about, and instead brings up nonsense. Very laughable nonsense.

Ricrery... just... just wow man... you're worse than Zinc here...

[Saquist]

Concession accepted. You have NO idea what kinetic energy (or even energy for that matter) is.

I've offered you no concession.

I could care less what G2k said. He's nothing more than a Star Trek fanboy to me, just like you are.

Ad hominem:
So, you're threatened by his statements?
Meaningless. This is not an articulated argument.

One should be able to see debris if they watched it frame by frame, yet no one has ever said any.

In sufficient background albedo to know for certain.
Distance is too extreme.

LOL, you fail at basic reading comprehension!

Pulverize: to reduce (as by crushing, beating, or grinding) to very small particles : atomize <pulverize rock>

Shatter: to cause to break or burst suddenly into pieces, as with a violent
blow.

Pulverizing=/=Shattering. Data said it was shattered, not pulverized. Shattering a 700 meter spherical asteroid requires 343 kilotons, well below a megaton.

Ad hominem:
Ricery....
Do you really think NASA is trying to ATOMIZE a 1 mile asteroid in order to save Earth? Do you really think that their objective is to ABSOLUTELY ATOMIZE the ICARUS asteroid? Are you really going to define the objective to save Earth between pulverized and shattered? If you do....let me assure you....you are the only person on Earth who would set the objective of pulverizing an asteroid as apposed to simply destroying it.

When did I argue this? Shut up and pay attention for once?

Request denied, Ricery.
The momenet you said it was a kiloton explosion you denied the density of the object and thus it's threat potential against the planet.

No you don't, and what you do show is laughable.

Appeal to Ridicule
A Contradictory and hypocritical declaration.

I was talking about Tears of Prophets.

No you weren't. I clearly said Return from Grace DS9.

Then you concede it wasn't a gigaton, or megaton

That would not be a logical conclusion, it would be wishful thinking.
The size of the explosion dictates is firepower, plain and simple.

Yes, and what was seen supports a kiloton yield destroying a Borg ship.

The explosion of the ship itself was larger than a kiloton.
This is only a confidence statement.
There is nothing to suport it especially not the false conclusion speculated by Mike Wong and who is the source that you can't verify yourself.

Your "analysis" has been laughable, thus far.

Appeal to Ridicule.

A ridiculous appeal to non-existent evidence; all we know is that the E-D destabilized the photosphere as to initiate the ejection

Appeal to Riddicule
False statement: Ejection
The proper description in canon is Fusion reaction

- most likely altering the surface magnetism -

Baseless Speculation

Do you have evidence that the behavior or chemical composition of the CME is any different from that of a spontaneously occurring CME, other than the fact that it was generated from an artificial destabilization of the surface which occurs on the surface of a star billions of times in her lifetime, with no indication that the characteristics were enhanced or altered to destroy the Borg vessel?

I will use your evidence from WONGS site that the CME is a diffuse gaseous reaction and not a Superfluid reaction. They are direct contradictions. Your argument is false and so is Wongs. You failed to listen to canon, You failed to observe the actual differences in the events on screen and in a real CME. There is no salvaging this. When are you going to realize that a CME is not a "superfluid reacton". Nothing in the dialogue matches up at all with your attempts to speculate it's power...It's blatantly blind and ignorant to continue this stubborn coarse but proceed if you wish...

I had no "errors". You are the one who doesn't seem to understand what he's talking about, and instead brings up nonsense. Very laughable nonsense.

What are you talking about? I said "LACK OF UNDERSTANDING" in that quote...not errors. You're making your arguments by ridicule. You're too busy laughing your way through the debate to comprehend what's been clearly posted. Your Appeals to Ridicule only serve as a systemic symptom in your reasoning, taking the place of actual reasoning and logic. You're not stubbling me and you making more and more apparent that the dept of your knowledge on this subject is about as fresh as a bag of old ladies.

Yes you do. You made the claim that it had shields up, you back it up. Christ, Kittamaru, how can take this imbecile's "analysis'" as even remotely viable?

Ad hominem:

Logic backs it up.
You haven't defeated the logic therefore I don't need to prove anything.

And I showed you a quote where a large asteroid bounced harmlessly off an unshielded hull of an ISD. If it actually lost its shields in the asteroid field, it would have been destroyed long ago.

Firstly: You can't prove the ship was unshielded. There is no consistency in the SFX to make that determination. LOGICAL DEDUCTION BY MEANS OF SYLLOGISM is the only viable and logical alternative.

Secondly: You didn't show anything. There were no sources only a stream of logical fallacies so far which is frankly all the ammunition you have.

Conclusion: Saquist is mentally deficient

You've committed 6 Informal Fallacies
Source information: No reference material provide
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi

This was poor, poor form as debating goes.

Once Again: Attempt #4
RICERY
I offered you a reasonable opportunity to sit down and work out all the cases between Trek and Wars to find out the truth through averages and you just ignored it and threw up a huge number of cases in an attempt to intimidate me or PROOF BY VERBOSITY.

[NMSquirrel]

we now interrupt this debate for an important announcement..



you may now continue with your current rantings..

[jkwoodward]

point taken. I may have taken some creative licence since not all that much has been revealed about the midi-clorians. I just couldn't reveal the thought of Imperial Borg Troopers.

[jkwoodward]

I don't know about that. I've never known the midi-clorians to be a force of themselves...I thought they were conveyors of the force.

point taken. I may have taken some creative licence since not all that much has been revealed about the midi-clorians. I just couldn't reveal the thought of Imperial Borg Troopers.

[jkwoodward]

point taken. I may have taken some creative licence since not all that much has been revealed about the midi-clorians. I just couldn't reveal the thought of Imperial Borg Troopers.

"I just couldn't RESIST the thought of Imperial Borg Troopers." is what I meant to say. (sheesh time to sleep I think)

[Saquist]

point taken. I may have taken some creative licence since not all that much has been revealed about the midi-clorians. I just couldn't reveal the thought of Imperial Borg Troopers.

But that doesn't mean that a person can't influence the midiclorians to just as you suggest. Darth Plageous seemed to have the ability to influence them to create life...it's the one and only time I've heard of any reference to such an ability.

Apparently it would be rare but...not impossible.
The work of a mastermind.

[ricrery]

Bad flaming, mate.

[NMSquirrel]

OMFG! this is a MUST see video! Hilareous!

star wars parody song sung to bohemian rhapsody..

[ricrery]

... okay, I'm half tempted to report you for trolling here. He said (and I agree) that nobody has a clue WHAT your objection is...

No, he claimed my list was mostly wrong, especially the Voyager one. He has yet to prove it.

And this is more obvious trololololing... you don't care about his (all too accurate) calculations because he's a fan of Star Trek and you aren't... you are saying, in other words, that you don't care about evidence you just care about what they support, and if they support Trek you won't believe them... care to L2Debate?

Vivftp isn't a Star Trek fan? Anyway, have you seen Picard578? Yeah, I'm not one for trusting the average Trekkie anymore. Apologies if that offends you. Picard578 makes all Trekkies look bad.

One should be able to see debris if they watched it frame by frame... yet no one has ever said any? Said any WHAT?

Anything. Also, as I stated before, the asteroid was heated to 6,500 Kelvins. It was definitely significantly vaporized. A few pieces definitely had to escape, but not enough to effect the calculation significantly.

More accurately, you fail at basic writing and English skills bud...

Are you supporting Saquist? Really? I thought you'd improved.

You're trying to argue semantics that aren't there... and failing at it... incredible.

Shattering is not pulverizing.

1) You are making a statement and using a question mark... grammatical fail of the most basic level.

No, I said it in a manner such as "Maybe you should listen for once?".

2) You did argue that... just a few posts ago.

And what did I argue exactly?

See my second response.

No, really. Half of his examples have backfired on him. The other two require us to use his images.

Sure, why not.

How wide are phasers?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhKsKhYztxM#5m40s

Assuming several meters, that would put this instance at low gigajoules at best.

No, and attempting to "accept" concessions that don't exist is poor debating style.

He's arguing that the scene had to be a gigaton because of the size, ignoring a much more rational conclusion to the size, such as friction from photons colliding. He's just putting his fingers into his ears and shouting "I CAN'T HEAR YOU".

Hardly - do the damn math ya tool.

Fine.



That's what a CME looks like. Now, unless the ship was thousands of kilometers in size, it's definitely not huge like a normal CME. A normal CME masses trillions of kilograms. That one looks like millions. Normal CME's travel at 20 km/s to 3,000 km/s. Slower than a normal one too.

Actually, it's been rather concise and, if anything, a bit conservative...

How so?

So you know how performed a fictional (and likely impossible) action with fictional (and likely impossible) technology to cause a fiction (and maybe possible) localized stellar event? Wow... just... just wow...

It's a CME. A Coronal Mass Ejection. It functioned like one and looked like one.

Ricrery... just... just wow man... you're worse than Zinc here...

Bullshit.

[Kittamaru]

No, it isn't a fucking CME... because if it were, it'd be HUGE, as you said.

So, obviously, it's some technobabble-created discharge... of what, who knows. The point is, the turned the power of a star against a ship. Beyond that, we don't really know WHAT it was.

Stop trying to be so literal in order to make Trek look bad - it doesn't work and just makes you sound like an idiot.