Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Stray Dog5]

ha-ha that's true omg im not sure why we even put up with TW someone shoot him already, and whats really going to be funny, "huh"............"what"........................... .."why cant I say that?"............"really that wouldn't be good"..........."I understand". Okay I can't say anything about ewoks and illegals because my lawyer said I would get sued for being racist sorry.

[ricrery]

Then there are people like you that don't seem to know the first thing about thermodynamics in the slightest. Hell, I would wager you couldn't even quote the laws of thermodynamics without googling them first!

Based off what, 10E44J?

Actually, no, I did not. My claim, and exact quote, was "Plasma is matter on the verge of becoming energy", a pretty accurate description considering Plasma has had it's electrons quite literally ripped away from the atoms and that Electricity is defined as "the motion of electrons".

No, you called plasma shields energy shields.

Xeelee = pure wank. Yes, it's canon that they are pure wank, but they are pure wank none the less. They are right up there with anime characters stopping tank shells with their bare hands and the like - it's pure creator wank that has no logical (or even semi-reasonable) explanation whatsoever.

Wank is lying or exaggerating about something. The Xeelee are purely consistent with their universe, thus they aren't wanked at all. Maybe you shouldn't throw words out you don't understand?

Sure can, and that's all pretty basic stuff - now, go ahead and explain something a little more challenging and I might start to believe you. And no, you can't google it either.

Then find the volume of each one without googling it all

ONE? His was a blanket statement referring to, quite literally, every comment of yours in that entire thread, if not that entire forum. Thanatos does not "knee jerk" when making calls like that - his decision was based on your history of stupidity in that forum.

He was referring to that one thread, obviously.

Compare that to my 10e44j "concept" being a function of a correct equation, correct theory, but incorrect source information - hardly my fault except for the fact that I should have used a second, redundant set of information to double check my work. I doubt any sane person would fault me for not trusting you or white-crackrabbit over there when they told me I was wrong - I could tell you two that rain is wet and you'd say I was wrong.

So you don't understand the energy densities you are talking about, yet still post them? No wonder almost EVERY post you say involves dumb shit.

Alright Mr. "I got ignored in the spacebattles vs forum, lawlz"

Aren't nick names fun?

Yes 10E44J Plasma Energy Kid

[ricrery]

Lulwut? So because we have an example of an atmospheric containment shield glowing on impact, all ship shields must glow on impact? Despite the fact that we have dozens, if not hundreds, of accounts for a lack of shield glow across 6 movies, a cartoon series, and a half dozen special events.

Yes we have, Episode I too.

[Saquist]

There was no shield flare, something that should have been present. Plus, the novel states that the asteroid hit the hull of the Avenger, a Star Destroyer. It has been supported in G Canon and C Canon that shields can tolerate much more damage than the hull can.

I don't know about that. In your judgement the shield flare should be there
But I've done a lot of a Star Wars shield analysis and it's not common at all that shields flare when struck by anything.

More Importantly If I assume there was no shield then I am obliged to answer the reason why there wasn't based on canon information and I canon. I must therefore assume due to the situation that the shield was there.

If the shield was there then it plus the hull could not sustain a common 20th century warhead.

So what? We know that their hulls were easily capable of tanking asteroids impacting them, minus the bridge tower, which still could "tank" an asteroid, if you know what I mean.

I assume you're referring to the miscellaneous asteroid strikes while the Star Destroyer was standing still? Exactly which strike are you speaking of aside from this Bridge Impact?

4,500,000 tons in mass, 6.5E^6 m^3 in volume. Dividing that and adding in hollowness, I get 6,920 kilograms per cubic meter.

You mean subtracting hollowness?
Sovereign has an Estimated tonnage of 2,717,000-10,515,000 by G2k
Any particular reason why you chose 6.5 million?

Now consider this:
If Voyager's canon tonnage is 700,000 Tons at an estimated volume of 625,885 M^3 then Proportionally Sovereign must be in the area of 2,716,849 Tons. No need to subtract "hollowness because the proportion takes into account a canon tonnage.

200 m/s initial velocity, 50 m/s final velocity.

That looks about right considering Sovereign's length .
I don't know the equation for kinetic energetic collisions but this would indicate that the numbers are half of what you pulled. .75 Kilotons ?

Yet you don't apply this problem to the ISD in ESB when it gets hit with an asteroid? You have the audacity to claim that the ISD had shields up, despite no evidence supporting this, whereas the Scimitar had its shields at 70% before Picard rammed them. Plus, that was a red herring, because I never mentioned shields.

On the Contrary. Shields are a necessary consideration. You didn't need to mention them because they are part of the variables we are considering. I'm obliged to do so by the mere act of data mining. The problem is that Trek has well documented kinetic/shield collisions and impacts. WELL documented....

But Star War is different....the shield flare is rare period.
Like in A New Hope so of those fighters showed shield flare when fired upon others did not. Star Destroyers have collided with each other and showed no flare of shields. Even when Star Destroyer Avenger fired on herself there was no "shield effect" but a dissipating Turbo Laser Energy. Those effects weren't seen when fighters were fired on Executor, or when fighters flew into Star Destroyers and Mon Calmari ships and trust me those colisions have to have the same effect as a anti Fighter Turbo laser striking the shield.

Or how about this; their weapons are kilotons-megatons. I have a whole fucking list supporting me.

A) Taste of Armageddon: Kirk orders the Enterprise to fire on cities, when an exaton would be enough to eradicate a significant part of the planet completely. Destroying a city, of course, can be done with low kilotons.

What's you point?

B) The Die is Cast: 20 Romulan and Cardassian warships fire upon a planet. The bombardment shows no fireballs, no ejecta, and a dim illumination. This is definitely not a kiloton event.

What we see is shock waves moving across a planets surface at speeds much faster than Earth's strongest wind. To say "definitely" because we don't see exactly what we should implies that FX crew always does what is scientifically accurate. That's an illogical assumption since we know they do not. What is necessary is understand what they are trying to display. The Dialogue confirms what the FX crew was implying.

That is relevant data you left out and you boldly assume it supports your figures.

C) Starship Down: A 12.5 megajoule KE impact punctures right the Defiant's hull. Doubtless it has a much stronger hull than any other UFP ship too.

That's a bit irrelevant. Torpedoes are shielded objects according to Trek.
That shield could have any number of purpose and it's certainly and additional variable in the collision that we can't apply numbers to.

D) Nemesis: Even though the Scimitar has nearly full shields, an undamaged hull, a KE event no more than 5 kilotons not only defeats its shields, but destroys its hull as well.

We were in the middle of figuring that out when you decided to drop and entire list. I have seen enough numbers so far to say that Nemesis is a considerable aberration for it forces us to conclude the shields were up and yet if they were up the Kinetic Impact itself falls insanely short of already observed and confirmed firepower else where.

E) Insurrection: Two Son’A ships, who together can defeat the Enterprise-E, and take quantum torpedoes without worries, are destroyed by the chemical incendiary explosion that results from the detonation of that metrion gas. Chemical reactions like those are a joke even in comparison to fission/fusion reactions, let alone those absurd M/AM reactions.

-The First part is false. Enterprise's shields even with the Core never fell bellow 70%.
-The Enterprise Never fired Quantum torpedoes in Insurrection
-The Contradiction in Firepower vs the Sona' Battleships is acknowledged.

F) First Contact: A Borg Sphere; a large Borg ship that laughs at Alpha Quadrant races and their ship, fires upon the Phoenix silo. If it had even kiloton (or even sub-kiloton) weaponry, the entire area would have been destroyed, but instead we see explosions in the megajoule range detonate all over the place. Don't even try to say that it's a lifeboat and thus doesn't have any weaponry, because then why would the Borg arm it all?

The Contradiction is acknowledged.
Star Trek Fan's know it well.

G) Skins of Evil: A photon torpedo detonates on a planet, it creates a mushroom cloud that lasts less than a second. This is an extremely low kiloton event at best.

H) For the Uniform: Same as above, except the quantum torpedoes last just slightly longer, but the difference in firepower is barely noticeable.

And yet the size of the cloud indicates an explosion that spans 246 kilometers if the planet was Earth Size. Even further for the Defiant's display for it's Quantum weapons. It seems you're purposely ignoring the favorable information for the negative information in that your expectation is an exact representation of scientific accuracy.

I) Survivors: A 400 gigawatt blast takes out the Enterprise D's shields, and the crew is not really all that surprised by this.

If this is your support then it's a bit dogmatic.
You know what the defense against this evidence is and it's well documented and logical to dismiss it. as illusion.

J) Alliances: The Voyager not one, not two, but three photon torpedoes upon a ship 2 stories above a building. The ship is threatened enough to leave the area.

Yes, Yes...this is getting worse.
There is no reason to believe that Janeway wanted to destroy everyone in the building just to persuade the Raider to withdraw. You're wasting my time now.

K) Dauphin: A single terawatt has a bigger output than the entire Enterprise D.

Acknowledged. I do not contest this.
But it implies a fallacy that energy efficiency is irrelevant in power generation and it's not. Technology is usually doing more with less power.

L) Night Terrors: A measly hydrogen explosion is stronger than the Enterprise D's photon torpedoes and phasers combined.

We have no idea what the Hydrogen reacted with and in what amounts.

M) Descent Part II: A coronal mass ejection violently destroys a Borg Cube. Even assuming the strongest one from our solar system (1x10E^25 J) had hit the Borg cube with 1 40 forty billionth of what it is worth, then 900 kilotons can destroy a Borg Cube. We also know that plasma is weaker against ships in ST, remember?

-Firstly I cannot blindly accept your numbers. You have to show your work and your sources.
-Secondly, it was not a CME. It was a phaser induced Surface Fusion reaction.
-The size of the Star was unknown
-The size of the erruption was unknown

N) Legacy: Carving a hole made of granite 1 meter in diameter and 1.6 kilometers in depth over 14 seconds requires 660 tons exerted each second.

What's your point it's a hand phaser?

O) Timecrash: Voyager impacts the surface with a KE event of 200 tons, and yet it receives considerably more damage than what you usually see several photon torpedoes or phaser beams do to a ship.

The ship weighs more than 200 tons traveling several times it's own length per second...It's a miracle of engineering the ship was intact at all.

P) Genesis: Photon Torpedoes that have their output enhanced by 11% only fragment asteroids that would require 11 tons to fragment.

I appreciate that you believe this is so but I must see your variables.

Q) Who Watches The Watchers: A Phaser bank can be run by a 4.2 Gigawatt power source.

Which proves nothing.

And what evidence do you have of that?

You wanted reasons, I gave you reasons. Everything depends on the exact situation you may or may not be referring to. Each one has to be broken down.

What fucking difference does it make? Why are there no remains visible?

Really? The apparent magnitude of those fragments wouldn't be very high anyway. The Considerable distance could EASILY mean that the object wasn't vaporized. You assume it was vaporized but there is no guarantee that only a portion of the rock was vaporized and the rest was merely blasted like a shot from a bullet sending unheated and non-glowing pieces in numerous direction with no substantial albedo for which to track them.

Insufficient as evidence.

Maybe to you but as an objective observer I must consider the FX intentions, abilities, deficiencies against the total amount of relevant data to draw an average. The intention and the abilities become clear after considering the whole of data. Discovering the truth involves all variable not just the ones you like.

To win an argument all you have to do is deny the truth.

You are arguing against assumptions and speculation?

My position is perfectly clear. No baseless speculations or assumptions that can not be drawn from logic. If a scene fails logic and contradicts a substantial amount of confirmed canon it will be regarded as anomalous and inadmissible but that is only through intense analysis of all the information.

Now if you'd like to continue I'd be willing to listen to everything you bring forward, one argument at a time.

[NMSquirrel]

more fun links..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNxhrPaaCA4
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansit.../news/?a=23591

[Kittamaru]

Based off what, 10E44J?

Well, for one, the fact that you have not once demonstrated even the most basic understanding of said principles perhaps.

No, you called plasma shields energy shields.

Wrong again - my exact quote was, and I QUOTE:

that star trek shields are "not a simple "plasma energy field" or any other shit like that."

Anyone with a modicum of reading comprehension can understand that what I was saying was that Trek shields are unique (in addition to the fact that a plasma energy shield is bullshit, but that's besides the point)

Wank is lying or exaggerating about something. The Xeelee are purely consistent with their universe, thus they aren't wanked at all. Maybe you shouldn't throw words out you don't understand?

wank [wæŋk] Slang
vb
(intr) to masturbate
n
an instance of wanking
adj
bad, useless, or worthless
[of uncertain origin]

I don't see "lying" or "exaggerating" in there at all - the Xeelee are wanked out because they are, quite simply, broken as hell: to be utterly fair, the writer of that series must have touched himself fondly at the thought of a race that controls literally every perceivable aspect of time and space losing to something that isn't even actively out to get them, much less even civilized!

Then find the volume of each one without googling it all

Volume of:

Cube or Rectangular Prism - length*width*height (cube is also simply side^3 as all sides are equal)
Sphere - 4/3 * pi * radius^3
Cylinder - pi * radius^2 * height
Cone - this one escapes me (haven't used it much) but I think it's 1/3 * pi *radius^2 * height
Pyramid - 1/3 base * height

That's from memory... so I may be wrong - been a LONG while since I did basic geometry in school, and you don't use it much in calc/trig surprisingly.

He was referring to that one thread, obviously.

What leads you to say that?

So you don't understand the energy densities you are talking about, yet still post them? No wonder almost EVERY post you say involves dumb shit.

So you claim to know, off the top of your fucking head, the energy density of the corona of a random star? Cool... you should go work at NASA.

Yes 10E44J Plasma Energy Kid

*shrugs* Call me what you will - the plasma energy is an outright lie (which I just showed) and the 10e44j is simply the result of bad data. There is nothing in that name that paints me in a bad light at all.

[ricrery]

I don't know about that. In your judgement the shield flare should be there

Since we've seen shield flares multiple times

More Importantly If I assume there was no shield then I am obliged to answer the reason why there wasn't based on canon information and I canon. I must therefore assume due to the situation that the shield was there.

Let me get this through to you; the shields were not there. The shields have shown multiple times in canon to be far stronger than the hull, with hits that could annihilate an unshielded vessel being unable to deplete the shields. In the TESB novelization, an asteroid hitting an unshielded Imperial Star Destroyer isn't capable of even damaging it.

If the shield was there then it plus the hull could not sustain a common 20th century warhead.

Star Trek has shown time and time again to be buttfucked by sub-kiloton weapons, but I guess such instances do not exist, in your eyes.

I assume you're referring to the miscellaneous asteroid strikes while the Star Destroyer was standing still? Exactly which strike are you speaking of aside from this Bridge Impact?

Every single one that occurred in the hours that the fleet was in the asteroid field. You would have to be an idiot to not figure out that they have taken multiple hits in that time.

You mean subtracting hollowness?

Does it really matter how I said it?

Sovereign has an Estimated tonnage of 2,717,000-10,515,000
by G2k

All uncanon bullshit. The tech manual states that a Galaxy Class has a mass of 4.5 million tons, and a Sovereign doesn't to be much larger in volume.

Any particular reason why you chose 6.5 million?

I stated that a Galaxy Class Starship has a VOLUME of 6.5 million cubic meters

Now consider this:
If Voyager's canon tonnage is 700,000 Tons at an estimated volume of 625,885 M^3

Where does that come from?

That looks about right considering Sovereign's length .
I don't know the equation for kinetic energetic collisions but this would indicate that the numbers are half of what you pulled. .75 Kilotons ?

No, the KE is 1.49 kilotons.

On the Contrary. Shields are a necessary consideration. You didn't need to mention them because they are part of the variables we are considering. I'm obliged to do so by the mere act of data mining. The problem is that Trek has well documented kinetic/shield collisions and impacts. WELL documented....

Did you forget the multiple times in DS9 when shield flares weren't present? Guess it can go either way, then, and since the Scimitar was stated to have its shields at 70% before the ramming scene occurred, it would make more sense if they were up

What we see is shock waves moving across a planets surface at speeds much faster than Earth's strongest wind. To say "definitely" because we don't see exactly what we should implies that FX crew always does what is scientifically accurate. That's an illogical assumption since we know they do not. What is necessary is understand what they are trying to display. The Dialogue confirms what the FX crew was implying.

Ugh, I'm tired of repeating myself, so I'm going just going to quote someone else on this.

The Die is Cast:

When the K-T mass-extinction “dino-killer” asteroid struck the Earth some 65 milion years ago, it produced a plasma jet of ionized matter which was hurled into space. This plasma jet glowed so brightly that it would blind anyone who looked at it, and when it came back down, it began to condense into liquid droplets and eventually superheated solid particles which showered down and started wildfires all over the entire planet. Yet this blast was totally inadequate to destroy 30% of the planet’s crust, and you have the audacity to claim that the feeble-looking dull brown clouds that the explosions seen in the episode are far more powerful than the dino-killer was.

It is painfully obvious that you have no real grasp of the kind of energies you’re talking about. All of your arguments are clearly couched in the language and mentality of mundane low-yield chemical explosives, not the kind of nuclear explosions or other mass-extinction events which merely scratch the surface of the kind of numbers you’d expect from wiping out a third of a planet’s crust.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...ate-1-pic1.jpg

TDiC demonstrates sufficient Trek firepower to cause less destruction at surface level than a large asteroid strike, with non-persistent fireballs, no visible ejecta whatsoever, and in fact, less surface luminosity than is generated from a large forest fire. In fact, the ONLY evidence that the ships in orbit were capable of anything more than surface-level destruction was one of several possible interpretations of a piece of dialogue, which is to say no conclusive evidence at all. Contrast this to their various attempts to destroy asteroids in “Rise” and “Pegasus” and “Cost of Living”, which are consistent with their observed firepower in TDiC but not with the unreasonable extrapolations derived from optimistic fanatics.

The first thing you get from a nuclear-level or greater blast is radiative ionization of an isothermal plasma sphere around the blast. This sphere will achieve temperatures far greater than the Sun’s core. As it cools and radiates energy to its surroundings while simultaneously expanding, you will eventually reach “hydrodynamic separation”, where the expansion catches up to the radiative fireball growth and begins to push out and create a shockwave. This shockwave (initially moving at tens of km/s for a kT-range blast) heats the air to many times the surface temperature (and brightness) of the Sun due to friction. It does not become transparent until the point of “breakaway”, when it has cooled to roughly half the Sun’s surface temperature and has slowed down to roughly 4 km/s.

In short, the problem with high-energy atmospheric detonations is that the air can only hold a certain amount of energy before it becomes plasma, and the laws of thermodynamics only allow it to expand and shed this energy to its surroundings at a limited rate due to blackbody radiation and hydrodynamics, so you invariably get a brilliant fireball with any sufficiently large release of energy in an atmosphere, and the more energy you have, the longer the fireball lasts.

Hence, we have obvious proof that these blasts are not the monster explosions you think they are (as if this isn’t obvious from just looking at their dull brown glory). The fireballs which should result from, say, gigaton-level energy releases should last for many minutes, and it is simply NOT POSSIBLE for shockwaves to move at hundreds of kilometers per second without glowing far brighter than the Sun. Don’t you know what happens when you try to push something through air at hundreds of kilometers per second? It burns!

You seem to think that it’s somehow possible to have massive crust-destroying explosions without a persistent fireball, thanks no doubt to your ignorance of thermodynamics. That same ignorance seems to underlie your belief in a ground-level shockwave which somehow moves at hundreds of km/s through the atmosphere without heating it up until it glows (in fact, you believe it remains so cool that you can have water condensation behind the shockfront, thanks to a childish misinterpretation of the Bikini atoll tests). In the end, your entire argument on “The Die is Cast” boils down to a single character’s choice of a single word (“crust” vs “surface”), and is directly contradicted not only by the visuals of that episode but also by startrek.com‘s official synopsis and every other photon torpedo detonation in the history of Star Trek. In fact, the ONLY evidence that the ships in orbit were capable of anything more than surface-level destruction was one of several possible interpretations of a piece of dialogue, which is to say no conclusive evidence at all, but curiously. In fact there is not one word to explain your assertion that the dialogue in question should be taken literally. In the 1980s, it was commonly said that the superpowers’ nuclear arsenals could destroy the Earth; did you also take that literally?

To destroy 30% of the crust of a planet, an individual would have to place over 796,68,578 gigatons of energy into the crust itself over any selected period of time. To pump this much energy (based on the non-existent principle of 100% efficient energy conversion yields) into the crust over the course of five seconds would require the use of:

1,195,028,670 Photon torpedoes (Based on the estimate of 1.5 kg of antimatter).
597,514,335 Quantum torpedoes (Not used by Romulans).
3,983,428,900,000,000 Phaser bursts.
142,857,142,857,142,857,142 Romulan Disruptor bursts.

Of course if we intended to be realistic about this and apply the most basic law of thermodynamics and state that no reaction is ever 100% efficient, and then equally offer a generous efficiency rate of only 50% (due to the omnidirectional nature of the blast), we start looking at a figure more like this.

2,390,057,340 Photon Torpedoes.
1,195,028,670 Quantum Torpedoes.

This is where common sense usually kicks in. We know that no Alpha quadrant power can carry this many emitters (Most Federation vessels have only 200 phaser emitters in the main array), and that both photon and quantum torpedo casings are quite large. Whilst there are no exact measurements at hand for torpedo casings, we know that they are frequently used as coffins during deep space burials; so assuming that the lower limit volume of the casing is equal to the average volume of a coffin (1375 cubed meters), the total number of required photon torpedoes would consume a volume of 3,286,328,842,500 (trillion) cubed meters.

To transport this many torpedoes into battle to produce the desired result of over 30% crust damage would require a vessel with a storage bay over 500,000 times the volume of a Galaxy-Class Federation vessel (About a seventh the size of our own moon) with the capability to launch nearly 500 million torpedoes per second. Even if we divide these figures amongst the thirty or so vessels that were bombarding the planet, the output is still ridiculously high for ANY Star Trek Alpha or Gamma quadrant power. Not even the Borg could compete with this level of firepower, as this essentially makes even the Doomsday machine look like a pop gun.

ultimately this is a classic example of onscreen evidence, past events and all known data contradicting one piece of dialogue which many have clung onto with abandon. If we genuinely believe that the fleet of thirty vessels could destroy 30% of the surface of a planet (meaning the actual destruction of the crust itself, and not the widespread environmental effects associated with nuclear detonations), we must assume that:

A) Each ship is capable of dumping over 531,123 gigatons of energy into the planet itself each second.

B) Therefore each lone ship is dumping the equivalent of over 150 Galaxy-class warp cores (the generator for the entire vessel) with each second of bombardment.

C) Thus we must ask the question, where have these uber weapons been the entire time? Whilst certain characters have made erroneous statements regarding firepower in the past (e.g. “I’ll turn the dial to 16 and blow up this building!”) If they’ve truly ever had the possibility of creating high ranged gigaton ranged weapons, their usefulness would have precluded themselves on the myriad of occasions that the Federation/Romulans/Klingons needed to vaporize multiple vessels, structures or aliens at close range. Simple calculations demonstrate that if this bombardment was conducted against a federation fleet, it could potentially vaporize over 152,704 Galaxy-class vessels in the blink of an eye, making any war of aggression a trivial matter at best.

The fact that a cubic meter of Tritanium has an energy threshold of only two terajoules certainly denotes that anything more than a single gigaton would vaporize the majority of a Galaxy-class vessel with the omnidirectional blast alone, let alone a direct impact. Said weapon would have been handy on more than a dozen occasions that I can recall.

That's a bit irrelevant. Torpedoes are shielded objects according to Trek.
That shield could have any number of purpose and it's certainly and additional variable in the collision that we can't apply numbers to.

Whether or not this is true, it doesn't change the KE of the torpedo.

And yet the size of the cloud indicates an explosion that spans 246 kilometers if the planet was Earth Size. Even further for the Defiant's display for it's Quantum weapons. It seems you're purposely ignoring the favorable information for the negative information in that your expectation is an exact representation of scientific accuracy.

Again.

You seem to think that it’s somehow possible to have massive crust-destroying explosions without a persistent fireball, thanks no doubt to your ignorance of thermodynamics. That same ignorance seems to underlie your belief in a ground-level shockwave which somehow moves at hundreds of km/s through the atmosphere without heating it up until it glows (in fact, you believe it remains so cool that you can have water condensation behind the shockfront, thanks to a childish misinterpretation of the Bikini atoll tests).

If it were traveling that fast, it should have created a long living fireball, as well as blinding hot plasma. It shouldn't last long, but just long enough so we know that it was there.

If this is your support then it's a bit dogmatic.
You know what the defense against this evidence is and it's well documented and logical to dismiss it. as illusion.

No it's not. Earlier, a 40 megawatt burst failed to defeat the shields, and yet if it was a godlike being, it should have worked then. Data doesn't even question it when the ship fires 400 gigawatt bursts, he just says "the warship is capable of hitting us with far more powerful bursts".

Yes, Yes...this is getting worse.
There is no reason to believe that Janeway wanted to destroy everyone in the building just to persuade the Raider to withdraw. You're wasting my time now.

Again, this when common sense kicks in. If it was obvious that they wouldn't fire full power weapons, WHY did the vessel retreat?

-Firstly I cannot blindly accept your numbers. You have to show your work and your sources.
-Secondly, it was not a CME. It was a phaser induced Surface Fusion reaction.
-The size of the Star was unknown
-The size of the erruption was unknown

-Alright.

"In this incident, the Enterprise-D moved deep into the corona of a star using special metaphasic shields, and its chief engineer estimated that its shields would fail within 5 minutes under this bombardment. Based on the presence of a habitable planet in that star system as well as the colour spectrum of the star, we can conclude that its star was very similar to Earth's star in terms of general luminosity. We can estimate corona power intensity to be roughly 60 MW/m², since that is the approximate power intensity at the surface of our Sun (note that the corona is outside the star). If we use a 100,000 m² profile area estimate, total absorption is roughly 6 TW, which would add up to roughly 420 kilotons (let's just say ½-megaton).

The problem with this incident is that the same vessel has entered solar coronae in other episodes34 without using metaphasic shields, and it has demonstrated superior strength in these incidents as well, supposedly being able to stay there for hours in one case. Since multi-phasic shields were clearly portrayed as a strength improvement rather than a strength reduction, this is an obvious inconsistency. The most obvious explanation is that shields have some special vulnerability to plasma (as demonstrated in numerous nebulae, atmospheric re-entry incidents, etc), and they were in the densest part of the corona in this case, but not in the other cases. However, several other explanations have been floated by Trekkies:

1) They were actually in the photosphere, not the corona, since misuse of terminology is common in Federation starships. However, the ship was clearly visible as it moved into the corona, and it was nowhere near the photosphere. Furthermore, the Enterprise-D used a particle-beam to induce a solar prominence by aiming it downwards to hit the photosphere. This obviously indicates that the ship was well above the photosphere. Therefore, this explanation is unworkable.

2) The hot corona gases are extremely dangerous. However, while corona gases range up to a million K, they are extremely diffuse- from 1E10 to 1E14 ions/m³. This means that the average translational kinetic energy of individual ions would be less than 2E-17 J, so the thermal energy of a cubic metre of corona gas is less than 0.002 J (it's very hot, but there is very little of it per cubic metre). Therefore, a GCS would absorb less than 60 kJ for each km of forward movement, generously assuming 100% thermal energy transfer and assuming that it is moving through the densest, hottest part of the corona. Even if the ship is travelling at 0.9c, it would be absorbing thermal energy at a rate of only 16GW. Clearly, this explanation is also unworkable.

3) The star was not a main-sequence star, and was a highly anomalous, exceptionally luminous star. However, the star did not have an unusual colour, and there were naturally habitable planets in its system. Again, this theory is unworkable.

Ultimately, the simplest explanation remains that Star Trek shields do not handle gas contact very well. This was made even more clear by subsequent events, in which the Enterprise induced a solar prominence to destroy the Borg vessel which had chased them into the corona in the first place (note that it was sitting outside). The largest solar prominences are known as "coronal mass ejections", or CME's, and in such a prominence, the mass and velocity of ejecta are typically around 1E12 kg and 400 km/s. Anomalously large CME's have involved masses and speeds of as much as 1E13 kg and 2000 km/s in the past. However, the prominence in "Descent Part 2" was nowhere near this size- it was barely wide enough to engulf the Borg vessel which was, in turn, no wider than 5km. However, a large CME is more than 250,000km wide. If we assume that the Borg cube was hit with a large CME in spite of the 40 billion to 1 size discrepancy, then we can use the ~1E25 joule energy content of the largest observed solar CME's to estimate that roughly 1 forty billionth of such a vast CME would actually strike the Borg ship. In other words, the Borg ship was hit with a burst of energy equal to, at most, 4000 TJ.

This is much lower than the known capabilities of Federation vessels to resist EM radiation, and since Borg vessels are generally superior to Federation vessels (this one had recently crippled the Enterprise-D in battle), it is reasonable to assume that they should be able to handle much more than this. The Borg ship's immediate obliteration due to a <4000TJ plasma burst indicates that plasma is highly dangerous to Borg vessels as well as Federation vessels (note: flare information can be verified on NASA's solar flare page)."

What's your point it's a hand phaser?

Where does it say that?

The ship weighs more than 200 tons

What does this prove?

traveling several times it's own length per second...It's a miracle of engineering the ship was intact at all.

Yet it didn't bring up an equivalent to 1 terajoule of kinetic energy. The ice blanket Voyager brought up was far to low for a kiloton/terajoule KE impact. Mass reduction technology had to be there.


I appreciate that you believe this is so but I must see your variables.

Which proves nothing.

It proves they have gigajoule weapons.

Really? The apparent magnitude of those fragments wouldn't be very high anyway. The Considerable distance could EASILY mean that the object wasn't vaporized. You assume it was vaporized but there is no guarantee that only a portion of the rock was vaporized and the rest was merely blasted like a shot from a bullet sending unheated and non-glowing pieces in numerous direction with no substantial albedo for which to track them.

Once again, prove that the asteroid had large fragments fly away via picture or video. Also, if the fragments were traveling at 1 km/s, would they pose a threat to ISDs, going by your logic?

Maybe to you but as an objective observer I must consider the FX intentions, abilities, deficiencies against the total amount of relevant data to draw an average. The intention and the abilities become clear after considering the whole of data. Discovering the truth involves all variable not just the ones you like.

To win an argument all you have to do is deny the truth.
[/quote]

Poor budget or crappy FX doesn't matter here, only the visuals they show do.

[ricrery]

Well, for one, the fact that you have not once demonstrated even the most basic understanding of said principles perhaps.

Based off what?

Wrong again - my exact quote was, and I QUOTE:

that star trek shields are "not a simple "plasma energy field" or any other shit like that."

Anyone with a modicum of reading comprehension can understand that what I was saying was that Trek shields are unique (in addition to the fact that a plasma energy shield is bullshit, but that's besides the point)

Prove that you said that

I don't see "lying" or "exaggerating" in there at all - the Xeelee are wanked out because they are, quite simply, broken as hell: to be utterly fair, the writer of that series must have touched himself fondly at the thought of a race that controls literally every perceivable aspect of time and space losing to something that isn't even actively out to get them, much less even civilized!

Hm, going by your dictionary quote, the Xeelee are masturbated. Does that make even an IOTA of sense to you?

Volume of:

Cube or Rectangular Prism - length*width*height (cube is also simply side^3 as all sides are equal)
Sphere - 4/3 * pi * radius^3
Cylinder - pi * radius^2 * height
Cone - this one escapes me (haven't used it much) but I think it's 1/3 * pi *radius^2 * height
Pyramid - 1/3 base * height

That's from memory... so I may be wrong - been a LONG while since I did basic geometry in school, and you don't use it much in calc/trig surprisingly.

Surprising how you don't actually do the math when finding the volume of holes or asteroids. It's also surprising how you boast about RSA's volumetric's page, when NONE of it is remotely difficult to copy. Methinks someone used Google.

What leads you to say that?

He's been in a few other threads that I've posted and not mentioned what I said at all, and instead just told people that they are tempbanned.

So you claim to know, off the top of your fucking head, the energy density of the corona of a random star? Cool... you should go work at NASA.

It's obvious if you know how much a megaton is (4.184x10E^15 J), then 10E44J would look very strange to you.

*shrugs* Call me what you will - the plasma energy is an outright lie (which I just showed) and the 10e44j is simply the result of bad data. There is nothing in that name that paints me in a bad light at all.

Well, it shows that you don't know the energy densities that you are talking about. You hear about joules ALL the time, so you should understand that 10E44J is insane.

[Kittamaru]

Rice cake, you're aggravating my allergies... I'm allergic to bullshit, so stop posting it!

[ricrery]

Rice cake, you're aggravating my allergies... I'm allergic to bullshit, so stop posting it!

Righteo, .8c Voyager Crash Supporter

[Kittamaru]

Based off what?

Well, for one, your calculations on how much energy it would take to vaporize an asteroid instead of fracture it - you don't take into account at all the fact that an asteroid is not a stable object once impacted, and will in fact begin to fracture the moment impact occurs. Total vaporization requires far more energy than you would think, but it must be deliver all at once across the entire volume of the asteroid to achieve total vaporization.

Prove that you said that

Here, how about a GOD DAMNED SCREENSHOT?!?



Does that provide enough "proof" you blockhead? All you have done here is prove that you are indeed as your name - a douchebag of the highest caliber.

Hm, going by your dictionary quote, the Xeelee are masturbated. Does that make even an IOTA of sense to you?

*facepalm* Did you not notice the other two definitions right in front of your face? Let me make it simple - unlimited cosmic power, and no ability to stop a random creature from, for all intents, eating them.

Surprising how you don't actually do the math when finding the volume of holes or asteroids. It's also surprising how you boast about RSA's volumetric's page, when NONE of it is remotely difficult to copy. Methinks someone used Google.

Uh huh - you will of course back everything up (including your "someone used Google" bitch) with proof, or be reported.

He's been in a few other threads that I've posted and not mentioned what I said at all, and instead just told people that they are tempbanned.

Probably because he was too busy laughing at you... he said you were "damned dumb", not "acting damned dumb", which means he thinks you are, on a whole "damned dumb".

It's obvious if you know how much a megaton is (4.184x10E^15 J), then 10E44J would look very strange to you.

Why would it? We're talking about a goddamned solar event, something far bigger than you or I will (hopefully) ever encounter in our lives. There is no basis for a comparison, thus I used outside sources for my information, sources with degrees far higher than you, I, or Mike Wong have... I'm talking fucking Doctorates here...

Well, it shows that you don't know the energy densities that you are talking about. You hear about joules ALL the time, so you should understand that 10E44J is insane.

Quantify to me what a Joule is - go ahead, I dare you. Give it to me not as a mathmatical number, but as a logical item, something tangible.

You can't.

You are arguing along the lines that "because I know the value of a dollar, I should know that paying $10,000 for a stick of gum is insane"; your argument falls on its face based on the fact that you cannot, and never will, experience 10e44 joules... fuck, you'll never even experience a fraction of that.

[Kittamaru]

Righteo, .8c Voyager Crash Supporter

I never said they impacted the ground at .8c you great git. However, the fact that they crossed many million kilometers in seconds would end itself to incredibly high speeds.

Keep the strawman attacks coming!

[ricrery]

Well, for one, your calculations on how much energy it would take to vaporize an asteroid instead of fracture it - you don't take into account at all the fact that an asteroid is not a stable object once impacted, and will in fact begin to fracture the moment impact occurs. Total vaporization requires far more energy than you would think, but it must be deliver all at once across the entire volume of the asteroid to achieve total vaporization.

I quadruple the yield when talking about vaporization, FYI.

*snip pic*

Obviously this is not the actual post

*facepalm* Did you not notice the other two definitions right in front of your face? Let me make it simple - unlimited cosmic power, and no ability to stop a random creature from, for all intents, eating them.

It doesn't say that anywhere. Plus, wank means "exaggerate or lie" at Spacebattles, FYI. Claiming that an ISD can destroy planets is "wanking" there. You had this told to you by freaking A. Bettik!

Uh huh - you will of course back everything up (including your "someone used Google" bitch) with proof, or be reported.

Okay. You don't find the volume of an asteroid or sphere by yourself, and instead rely on Darkstar to the math for you.

Probably because he was too busy laughing at you... he said you were "damned dumb", not "acting damned dumb", which means he thinks you are, on a whole "damned dumb".

Not at all. He was laughing at Zinc for claiming not to know what Twitter was. I have a link, BTW.

Why would it? We're talking about a goddamned solar event, something far bigger than you or I will (hopefully) ever encounter in our lives. There is no basis for a comparison, thus I used outside sources for my information, sources with degrees far higher than you, I, or Mike Wong have... I'm talking fucking Doctorates here...

Well, isn't it obvious that the sun doesn't generate nonillions of times more energy per second than what is required to mass scatter earth? As for relying on people smarter than--why the fuck do you ignore Mike Wong's math if he's smarter than you?

Quantify to me what a Joule is - go ahead, I dare you. Give it to me not as a mathmatical number, but as a logical item, something tangible.

You can't.

You are arguing along the lines that "because I know the value of a dollar, I should know that paying $10,000 for a stick of gum is insane"; your argument falls on its face based on the fact that you cannot, and never will, experience 10e44 joules... fuck, you'll never even experience a fraction of that.

I can tell you that the sun doesn't generate 1x10E^26 J more energy per second than the earth's entire arsenal.

[ricrery]

I never said they impacted the ground at .8c you great git. However, the fact that they crossed many million kilometers in seconds would end itself to incredibly high speeds.

Keep the strawman attacks coming!

Except you did.

[Kittamaru]

Except you did.

Originally Posted by Leo1 View Post
Obviously just for fun since its apparent that Voyager didn't impact the planet at c, or anywhere approaching c.

Except, you know, they did. Prove otherwise. You want to play the proof game, go ahead - he provided evidence it did. Now you prove it didn't.

I dont' see any mention of .8c there. If I had to guess, they approached the planet at around , well, lets find out:

9 million KM ahead... covered in... 10 seconds from him starting to say how far away they are to the camera showing Voyager just above the planet in question.

9 million KM / 10 seconds = 900,000 km/second.
The speed of light is 299,792 kilometers / second

So, they were, in fact, traveling at least 3 times the speed of light... without being at warp and without a warp field.

you want to claim they impacted the planet at what again? 200 m/s?

When, then, did this drastic slow down occur, and why did it not snap the ship in half like a toothpick, especially given it's structual damage and failing SIF? For that matter, why was everyone inside not turned to a fine red paste given that their Inertial Dampeners were failing (shown by them being jostled all over the place).

Keep lying out your ass buddy.

[Kittamaru]

I quadruple the yield when talking about vaporization, FYI.

And the math to show that this is correct is what, exactly?

Obviously this is not the actual post

Right, and you are reported for all to obvious flame baiting. Looks like I was wrong - you went less than two days before making an ass of yourself.

Provide proof to back your statements up

It doesn't say that anywhere. Plus, wank means "exaggerate or lie" at Spacebattles, FYI. Claiming that an ISD can destroy planets is "wanking" there. You had this told to you by freaking A. Bettik!

I don't care what someone at spacebattles THINKS wank meant - I gave you the goddamned dictionary definition. If you don't like it, tough shit.

Okay. You don't find the volume of an asteroid or sphere by yourself, and instead rely on Darkstar to the math for you.

Why would I do so myself when he has already done it, especially considering that I don't have the numbers to do so with? Yes, I know how to find the volume of said asteroid - what I don't know how to find is the distance to the asteroid and it's size in relation to the Enterprise at the given camera angles and distance from the enterprise, all of which is a FUCKING UNKNOWN.

This is not a simple equation here... we have a LOT of unknown variables that result in a much more complicated problem - I, for one, do not have high-end photo-manipulation software, nor do I have high-end simulation software, nor do I know how to find all those variables on my own. Neither do you, apparently, or you would know all this by now.

Not at all. He was laughing at Zinc for claiming not to know what Twitter was. I have a link, BTW.

Post said link.

Well, isn't it obvious that the sun doesn't generate nonillions of times more energy per second than what is required to mass scatter earth? As for relying on people smarter than--why the fuck do you ignore Mike Wong's math if he's smarter than you?

1) The suns energy is being radiated in every goddamned direction, plus the earth is a fair distance away.

2) Why would I even think of the energy required to mass-scatter the earth in said situation?

3) Mike Wong is not smarter than I... in fact, my degrees mean a fair bit more than his generic degree.

I can tell you that the sun doesn't generate 1x10E^26 J more energy per second than the earth's entire arsenal.

That does not quantify it logically - try again.

[ricrery]

you want to claim they impacted the planet at what again? 200 m/s?

When, then, did this drastic slow down occur, and why did it not snap the ship in half like a toothpick, especially given it's structual damage and failing SIF? For that matter, why was everyone inside not turned to a fine red paste given that their Inertial Dampeners were failing (shown by them being jostled all over the place).

Then their inertial dampeners should have been good enough to help them survive. If they traveling at c fractional velocities, then they would have destroyed everything in hundreds of kilometers, whereas they brought up a blanket of ice with less energy than a terajoule.

Keep lying out your ass buddy.

Bullshit. Slayer of Gods said this.

Just for fun:
In Timeless it took Voyager about 18 seconds to travel 9 million kilometers. So Voyager hit the planet at close to c. So we cant use mv2/2 we must instead use mc^2.

Weighing 700,000 tons gives the impact the energy of

700,000,000*300,000^2 = 4,41*10^28 J

Leo said this

Obviously just for fun since its apparent that Voyager didn't impact the planet at c, or anywhere approaching c.

You said this

Except, you know, they did. Prove otherwise. You want to play the proof game, go ahead - he provided evidence it did. Now you prove it didn't.

Again; .8c Voyager Crash Supporter.

[Kittamaru]

Then their inertial dampeners should have been good enough to help them survive. If they traveling at c fractional velocities, then they would have destroyed everything in hundreds of kilometers, whereas they brought up a blanket of ice with less energy than a terajoule.

So we are to disregard the fact that they crossed 9 million km in a few seconds because they didn't "throw up enough ice"...? What the fuck is wrong with you...

Bullshit. Slayer of Gods said this.

Leo said this

You said this

Again; .8c Voyager Crash Supporter.

And nowhere in any of that do I see .8c mentioned... not once. If anything, they would have impacted at OVER c... but then again, you fail at math so that does not surprise me.

Let me re-do the calculation taking into account time before impact:

9 million KM / 23 seconds (time between the computer beeping about the planet until impact) = 391,304 km/s.

The speed of light is 299,792 kilometers / second

Thus, they were going nearly a full 100,000 km/s OVER the speed of light...

Thus, Slayer was right - they were going "nearly" c... just they were going OVER C, not UNDER C.

Obviously they were slowing down before impact - the problem is, they couldn't slow down to sub-mach without tearing themselves apart.

So, the question becomes this:

Do we trust the visuals, or the dialogue? Because they are in DIRECT conflict here.

It should be pretty damn obvious why the visuals can't show the ship going faster than light... you wouldn't see the goddamned thing.

Thus, the dialogue is correct.

PERIOD.

[ricrery]

And the math to show that this is correct is what, exactly?

Since that's what is used by the Starfleet Jedi members.

Right, and you are reported for all to obvious flame baiting. Looks like I was wrong - you went less than two days before making an ass of yourself.

Provide proof to back your statements up, or GTFO noob.

I don't care what someone at spacebattles THINKS wank meant - I gave you the goddamned dictionary definition. If you don't like it, tough shit.

Spacebattles doesn't use the literal meaning, imbecile.

Why would I do so myself when he has already done it, especially considering that I don't have the numbers to do so with? Yes, I know how to find the volume of said asteroid - what I don't know how to find is the distance to the asteroid and it's size in relation to the Enterprise at the given camera angles and distance from the enterprise, all of which is a FUCKING UNKNOWN.

We know the size of the Rise Asteroid; 130 by 130 by 200 meters in diameter. The yield to vaporize it is less than what is required in TESB.

Post said link.

No.

3) Mike Wong is not smarter than I... in fact, my degrees mean a fair bit more than his generic degree.

Oh YES HE IS. Your "degrees" mean nothing when you don't understand even an iota of your claims. Rama has schooled you more times than I can remember. Mike Wong is massive overkill. You also believe RSA is smarter than him, so I bet this just your typical bullshitting.

That does not quantify it logically - try again.

Energy is not plasma.

[ricrery]

Thus, the dialogue is correct.

PERIOD.

You're an idiot. That's not how it works at all, but I guess this is too much for an imbecile like you to understand. If they were traveling at c fractional velocities, THEY WOULD HAVE ANNIHILATED EVERYTHING HUNDREDS OF KILOMETERS. They don't, they instead just bring up a few gigajoules equivalent of ice, nothing more. If you really were smarter than Mike Wong, you would know this... oh hell, if you understood only an iota about energy, you would know this. But then again... 10E44J Plasma-Energy...