View Poll Results: Which universe would win?

Voters
670. This poll is closed
  • Star Trek

    227 33.88%
  • Star Wars

    285 42.54%
  • Spaceballs

    51 7.61%
  • Farscape

    14 2.09%
  • Dune

    54 8.06%
  • Stargate

    39 5.82%

Thread: Star Wars vs Star Trek

  1. #21061
    Bleed White and Blue! Shogun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega133 View Post
    Mace Windu faced three Super Battledroids, which do have high rates of fire, and was able to block all the shots while simultaneously getting out of there. It was when he was on the balcony of the Geonosian Arena in AotC.
    Well, Jedi can block three Super Battle Droids firing generally in the direction of his lightsaber and the line of fire didn't change much. However, if three SBDs fire at three very different positions, he can't deflect all the shots, he have to evade and block.

    It brings up a point too, Jedi don't have to just block it, they can evade and block. If they are surrounded and nailed by a whole bunch of gunman, then chances are they will be KIA. If they are just surrounded by a few gunman, they can leap, chop down the enemy, before the enemy can get a line of fire on them.

  2. #21062
    Aus der Dunkelheit Omega133's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shogun View Post
    Well, Jedi can block three Super Battle Droids firing generally in the direction of his lightsaber and the line of fire didn't change much. However, if three SBDs fire at three very different positions, he can't deflect all the shots, he have to evade and block.
    While in the arena every Jedi was surrounded, and quite a few survived, it shows that it can be done.

  3. #21063
    Bleed White and Blue! Shogun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega133 View Post
    While in the arena every Jedi was surrounded, and quite a few survived, it shows that it can be done.
    They can survive yes. The arena wasn't filled with blaster fire. It wasn't much of a firefight. The ratio of survivors are quite small, and they are saved by the clone troopers. Not every Jedi were surrounded ( until the end, where Dooku asked them to surrender ). Dooku probably meant for some to survive so he can use them as bargaining chips.

  4. #21064
    Bleed White and Blue! Shogun's Avatar
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    Blaster fire is below Mach, it is proven. Also from visual evidence, it is very slow as well.

  5. #21065
    Registered Senior Member alpinedigital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shogun View Post
    Blaster bolts are seen to be slower then bullets. And here is another thing, it is below Mach as well, because the sound is simultaneous with the bolt being fired, not after.
    I say the light show was necessary for the visual appeal. FACT is they must be slow enough to be visible, and HOW slow they chose the speed to appear does not concern me. It's yet another variable that only confuses the issue.

    The sounds from starships and explosions in space that aren't even supposed to be making noise in space also happen pretty much simultaneously with the cause of the sounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shogun View Post
    Blaster fire is below Mach, it is proven. Also from visual evidence, it is very slow as well.
    Of course, but if it is proven just provide the evidence. But let me just remind you that my original point is if it needs to show up, it has to be slowed down, so even if the weapons fire IS at c, it cannot APPEAR that way, so I won't use a visual of something that can't be shown as evidence. It's kind of the same (I think) as saying you can't prove the distance of something in space by the sound when we know we're not supposed to hear anything.

    Anyway, I chose not to get all wrapped up in canon on film like it's absolute 100% accurate so far as it can be shown on film because I know damn well that some things need to be done for show, and it's proven every time you hear a starship or weapon or explosion in space. And I'm pretty sure you'd never see a ship travel away from you if it jumped to FTL. But since the viewing audience is used to seeing visual representation of objects leaving into the distance and in a specific direction, you DO see ships travel into the distance.

    Surely I don't need to remind you that our eyes are pretty limited, but even a framerate 10 times our range of detection would not show light speed objects leaving the vacinity. It would be in position, you'd maybe see the first instant it started to accelerate, and then it would vanish. You're basic 'don't blink or you'll miss it' wouldn't even apply.

    Now onto the Jedi reflexes again? Or are we all in agreement that it's the arrival of several shots from different directions arriving simultaneously that is impossible to block, and that how long it took them to get there is mostly irrelevant? Yeah, MOST people understand that.

    Anyway - Im 'undecided' and don't suggest you believe about the speed based on what I say, but Im just telling you I wont believe they're going slower based on whats shown on the screen. I'm willing to accept other evidence... but I forget why it matters. Some sci fi even show actual light beams move away from their source. Wait... Does anyone also realize the light sabers extend at differing speeds too? It's stuff like this that I say is done for dramatic effect. Sometimes it extends instantly for immediate use... but I've seen one extend very slowly like... "Im in no hurry to destroy you... Im cool and taking my sweet time!"

  6. #21066
    Bleed White and Blue! Shogun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alpinedigital View Post
    I say the light show was necessary for the visual appeal. FACT is they must be slow enough to be visible, and HOW slow they chose the speed to appear does not concern me. It's yet another variable that only confuses the issue.

    The sounds from starships and explosions in space that aren't even supposed to be making noise in space also happen pretty much simultaneously with the cause of the sounds.
    Right is is not supposed to be making sound, because there is no medium in space. However there is atmosphere during planetary battles. The shot and the sound is simultaneous thus less then or equal to mach.

    Of course, but if it is proven just provide the evidence. But let me just remind you that my original point is if it needs to show up, it has to be slowed down, so even if the weapons fire IS at c, it cannot APPEAR that way, so I won't use a visual of something that can't be shown as evidence. It's kind of the same (I think) as saying you can't prove the distance of something in space by the sound when we know we're not supposed to hear anything.
    I provided it above. I didn't make the mistake mate, you did. I said blasters not turbolasers, blasters are used on planetary battles, not space, laser cannons and turbolasers are used in space. If you can't provide evidence that Lucasfilm intended for it to be at c, then it simply doesn't stand up to the test. You want to go EU? Then fine, it says plasma rounds are used for blasters not beams.

    Anyway, I chose not to get all wrapped up in canon on film like it's absolute 100% accurate so far as it can be shown on film because I know damn well that some things need to be done for show, and it's proven every time you hear a starship or weapon or explosion in space. And I'm pretty sure you'd never see a ship travel away from you if it jumped to FTL. But since the viewing audience is used to seeing visual representation of objects leaving into the distance and in a specific direction, you DO see ships travel into the distance.
    Umm...then what is canon in your definition? EU? From EU evidence, it is still less then c. The movie shows accelerating to hyperspace, not it at light speed itself. The one where the space is blue is hyperspace.

    Surely I don't need to remind you that our eyes are pretty limited, but even a framerate 10 times our range of detection would not show light speed objects leaving the vacinity. It would be in position, you'd maybe see the first instant it started to accelerate, and then it would vanish. You're basic 'don't blink or you'll miss it' wouldn't even apply.
    Yeah, but the blasters are still pretty slow, even if it is made for the visual effect I can handle much faster then that. Sorry mate, EU and Movies says it is below C. Lucasfilm could have tried to use slow motion for EVERYTHING not just for blasters.

    Now onto the Jedi reflexes again? Or are we all in agreement that it's the arrival of several shots from different directions arriving simultaneously that is impossible to block, and that how long it took them to get there is mostly irrelevant? Yeah, MOST people understand that.
    Umm, no not really. Speed is essential in a weapon. Speed, rate of fire, firepower and range, the basic four.

    Anyway - Im 'undecided' and don't suggest you believe about the speed based on what I say, but Im just telling you I wont believe they're going slower based on whats shown on the screen. I'm willing to accept other evidence... but I forget why it matters. Some sci fi even show actual light beams move away from their source. Wait... Does anyone also realize the light sabers extend at differing speeds too? It's stuff like this that I say is done for dramatic effect. Sometimes it extends instantly for immediate use... but I've seen one extend very slowly like... "Im in no hurry to destroy you... Im cool and taking my sweet time!"
    Lightsabers cease at a certain length. Perhaps the speed of which it is extending is the speed of which the controlled length is extending.

    Umm.....think of rappelling off a cliff, you won't want to let go all the way too fast, you want to let it go a bit at a time. Get what I mean?

    If you won't believe it, then will you believe EU?

  7. #21067
    Registered Senior Member alpinedigital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilithi_Dragon View Post
    So I am obligated by your command?
    No. What I said is a figure of speech, 'let it go.' It's a suggestion that we move off that specific topic before it gets ugly, and look.. It has. Wow, did I see that coming like clairvoyant or what? I never really commanded you to do anything. I don't just outright tell people to do anything, as with my post asking "So are we going to get back on topic?" I don't care if people wander off topic with others, but if you're talking to me, (quoting me) just know I won't discuss things with somebody who has no focus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilithi_Dragon View Post
    And you criticize me for giving telling you what to do (and for the record, I gave a suggestion, not an ultimatum, which typically involves a command to do X or face Y consequences)?
    "The whole POINT of this thread/discussion is to have fun ... If you don't want to do that, I suggest you find a different thread."
    I don't suppose we need to discuss the accuracy or intent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilithi_Dragon View Post
    What do the abilities of Wonder Woman (lol a super-human creation of a Greek goddess, not a "normal person with special gear"), a completely different character from a completely different universe, have anything to do with the abilities of the Jedi or human beings in general? There is no correlation between the reflex speed of Superwoman and the reflex speed of a Jedi.
    "And speaking of" is another term used to say this has no bearing on the discussion but is somewhat related to "deflecting shots" and basically has nothing to do with Jedi. As for powers, you're right. I only seen a few of the TV episodes don't remember much about them. I just remember super heros in 3 catagories and she was in the same one as batman.
    Last edited by alpinedigital; 07-17-10 at 07:11 PM.

  8. #21068
    Bleed White and Blue! Shogun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alpinedigital View Post

    "The whole POINT of this thread/discussion is to have fun ... If you don't want to do that, I suggest you find a different thread."
    I don't suppose we need to discuss the accuracy or intent.
    Keyword= suggest. He did not state what he would do to you, or what will be done to you as consequences, he simply stated what he suggests you could do.
    Last edited by Shogun; 07-17-10 at 08:43 PM.

  9. #21069
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Alpine Digital has apparently taken it upon himself to replace Ricrery... ugh.

  10. #21070
    Bleed White and Blue! Shogun's Avatar
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    Alpinedigital, prove that blasters are beam weapon by,

    1) Proving it is light, which follows up by these

    A) Prove that it travels at c

    B) Prove that it is both wave and particles

    C) Prove that it is electromagnetic radiation

    D) Prove that it has photons

  11. #21071
    Registered Senior Member alpinedigital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru View Post
    Alpine Digital has apparently taken it upon himself to replace Ricrery... ugh.
    Comparing me to ricrery isnt going to make me any nicer... in fact more likely to piss me off. He might have come here and left a bad taste in all your mouths but thats not my problem. I knew him from youtube SW v ST vid and I purposely avoided this place when he started coming around... so Im sorry if you had to put up with his BS but I never invited him here and if you continue comparing people to him, I'll just go find him and bring him back...

    Now if insults are what this place is left with, let me know; I'll take another leave of absence. But Im telling you ricrery comparisons are extremely offensive and nobody deserves to be insulted that way. Least of all not me because I don't know 1 millionth of the endless bits of wars and trek data he does so how could I possibly present myself in a similar manner?

    Maybe this is just a new way of trying to piss someone off... "You're starting to act like ricrey!!" Well ha ha, thats cute. But Im not amused.

  12. #21072
    Registered Senior Member alpinedigital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shogun View Post
    Right is is not supposed to be making sound, because there is no medium in space.
    My point is, specifically: If there are obvious known errors on a film, then it is absolutely NOT 100% accurate. I refuse to accept you can prove anything based on sound, especially when there are audio errors in the film, like where no sounds should exist. And no, I wont accept 'sound in space is wrong but sound in atmosphere is accurate' because its all in the movie, all done by someone who didn't nail it down perfectly.

    But to maybe satisfy my point further: Do you know what it would take to add sound effects that are dead-on accurate to precise distance and account for the speed of sound? Remember, the movie was never meant to be picked apart frame by frame and be used as indisputable evidence to prove every detail of Lucas vision of the galaxy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shogun View Post
    Keyword= suggest. He did not state what he would do to you, or what will be done to you as consequences, he simply stated what he suggests you could do.
    I'd just stated that we didn't need to argue accuracy. But since we are...
    "I suggest you take your hands off me!" and the other guy says "OR WHAT!?"
    'Suggest' is a polite word for giving someone an ultimatum. Like if your mom says "I suggest you clean your room or your father will ground you"
    Technically no, it wasn't an ultimatum, but easily interpreted as such.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shogun View Post
    Alpinedigital, prove that blasters are beam weapon by...
    Quote Originally Posted by alpinedigital View Post
    (BTW, laser bolts and phaser blasts and all those beam type weapons - I don't buy into that crap about them traveling slower than the speed of light. They appear that way in video so they show up on a few frames.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilithi_Dragon View Post
    I would generally agree with you, except when it comes to blaster bolts.
    Wasn't me who introduced them as beam weapons...
    Last edited by alpinedigital; 07-18-10 at 07:33 AM.

  13. #21073
    Bleed White and Blue! Shogun's Avatar
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    Here is something:

    It is not light and beam weapon because it is not one continuous beam. They are bolts. Beams are continuous, because they are light. Light are continuous and the wavelength is generally the same, ( there might be a bit of Doppler effect that might occur over long distances, and the waves might be stretched as the universe stretches, but it doesn't happen with the distances we are talking about here ). It is not light, it is a bolt of plasma ( as stated in EU ). It is also slower then c, if it is not a beam, then Lucas probably didn't intend for it to be c.

    I believe we are debating the Star Wars that was produced and licensed, so every bit of detail counts.

    If you refused to believe the films, will you believe EU?

  14. #21074
    Registered Senior Member alpinedigital's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shogun View Post
    Here is something:

    It is not light and beam weapon because it is not one continuous beam. They are bolts. Beams are continuous, because they are light. Light are continuous and the wavelength is generally the same, ( there might be a bit of Doppler effect that might occur over long distances, and the waves might be stretched as the universe stretches, but it doesn't happen with the distances we are talking about here ). It is not light, it is a bolt of plasma ( as stated in EU ). It is also slower then c, if it is not a beam, then Lucas probably didn't intend for it to be c.

    I believe we are debating the Star Wars that was produced and licensed, so every bit of detail counts.

    If you refused to believe the films, will you believe EU?
    here's some quick stuff I looked at:
    "The basic blaster technology of intensifying a beam of light into a deadly bolt..." - StarWars.com
    Behind the scenes: "animated in post production..." (probably NOT done to provide proof of weapons fire speed, and definately not to do it accurately)

    "A blaster (also called a gun) was a ranged weapon that fired bursts of particle beam energy called blaster bolts" - Wookie
    "...This turned the mass of plasma gas and energy into a coherent energy beam as a coherent energy bolt of light and plasma. This combination of light and plasma formed the deadly bolt fired from a blaster."

    My own take on the whole 'bolt vs beam' thing is that what classifies it as one or the other is the duration of the energy release. A short burst from any beam weapon would be considered a 'bolt' because its short and quick. A phaser burst would look just like a bolt, and a blaster configured to hold a sustained burst would then be a blaster 'beam'. As for the speed of this 'intensified beam of light' or 'coherent energy beam' (that is released in a short burst) 'as a coherent energy bolt', well you can dig for that in EU and I'll take your word for it.

    I don't pretend I KNOW this stuff. Im not a fan and don't follow that much about specifics until I started following the debates. So when I want to discuss something, I usually read about it first. That's how I kinda remembered particle energy, plasma, light, some of the stuff involved. I made up my mind then and developed the instinct that the bolts should be speed of light.
    Last edited by alpinedigital; 07-18-10 at 08:53 AM.

  15. #21075
    Bleed White and Blue! Shogun's Avatar
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    I remember in the Republic Commando series, it stated they fire ion rounds, which is plasma.

    It doesn't make any sense, a bolt of light. It also doesn't make any sense about light and plasma.

    It is a bolt, because it is one section, not continuous. It is like line and line segment. If it is a short burst, it still won't be a segment, it will still be continuous. It is the property of light. It can't be small segments. Plasma can however.

    The blast characteristics ( eg. the mark left on a wall ) resembles not of light, and not of plasma, but of explosives. I think it is some kind of explosive plasma, I am not sure.

  16. #21076
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alpinedigital View Post
    Comparing me to ricrery isnt going to make me any nicer... in fact more likely to piss me off. He might have come here and left a bad taste in all your mouths but thats not my problem. I knew him from youtube SW v ST vid and I purposely avoided this place when he started coming around... so Im sorry if you had to put up with his BS but I never invited him here and if you continue comparing people to him, I'll just go find him and bring him back...

    Now if insults are what this place is left with, let me know; I'll take another leave of absence. But Im telling you ricrery comparisons are extremely offensive and nobody deserves to be insulted that way. Least of all not me because I don't know 1 millionth of the endless bits of wars and trek data he does so how could I possibly present myself in a similar manner?

    Maybe this is just a new way of trying to piss someone off... "You're starting to act like ricrey!!" Well ha ha, thats cute. But Im not amused.
    Go ahead and take your leave of absence... make it a permanent one if you wish. Otherwise, start providing proof.

    Oh, and just try to bring him back, go on, it'll amuse me. He got himself banned... and I think it was permanent this time, lol.

    Besides, if you don't want to be compared to him, don't act like him *shrugs* Pretty simple I thought...

  17. #21077
    Kittamaru, getting snarky and snappish isn't going to improve anything. If all your going to do is make sniping comments at other posters, you're no better than ricrery yourself.

    Alpinedigital, it was not my intent to come across as an ultimatum or threat. I apologize for coming off that way, and I apologize for being short-tempered; I'm short on sleep and back to working 7 days a week again for a while, which I had hoped to avoid (plus other issues), so my patience has been somewhat strained of late.


    I understand what you are saying about the reliability of the films, but the argument you are using would invalidate EVERYTHING in the films in its entirety, or would allow you to arbitrarily pick-and-choose which points of data you wish to use.

    Obviously, neither of those situations is acceptable. The only fair solution is to accept the data where ever it does not go obviously wrong (such as with sound in space). Otherwise, you can't have any real discussion at all, which just defeats the whole point.

  18. #21078
    Bleed White and Blue! Shogun's Avatar
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    I realized a mistake I made ( I realized it while reading about DNA aptamer–micelle as an efficient detection/delivery vehicle toward cancer cells, I don't fully understand it, but it is awesome, I don't know how they are interrelated and how that made me realize my mistake ) with comparing light as a line and bolt to a line segment. More correctly, a beam is ray, until it is stopped, THEN it becomes a segment, with an end to the muzzle of the weapon. A bolt doesn't have the properties of light.

    Okay so, alpinedigital, do you want to go by EU or movies?

  19. #21079
    Bleed White and Blue! Shogun's Avatar
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    So I have a question, how does Star Trek's transporters work? It is based on Quantum Mechanics?

  20. #21080
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilithi_Dragon View Post
    Kittamaru, getting snarky and snappish isn't going to improve anything. If all your going to do is make sniping comments at other posters, you're no better than ricrery yourself.

    Alpinedigital, it was not my intent to come across as an ultimatum or threat. I apologize for coming off that way, and I apologize for being short-tempered; I'm short on sleep and back to working 7 days a week again for a while, which I had hoped to avoid (plus other issues), so my patience has been somewhat strained of late.


    I understand what you are saying about the reliability of the films, but the argument you are using would invalidate EVERYTHING in the films in its entirety, or would allow you to arbitrarily pick-and-choose which points of data you wish to use.

    Obviously, neither of those situations is acceptable. The only fair solution is to accept the data where ever it does not go obviously wrong (such as with sound in space). Otherwise, you can't have any real discussion at all, which just defeats the whole point.
    Sorry, just getting grumpy... I'm tired of seeing debates devolve into flames, blood, and tears...

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