Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Kittamaru]

Um... no? Laser weaponry can't even penetrate Covenant shields. A single Plasma Torpedo would be sufficient to wipe away any ship, and I love how NDF weapons are useless against Borg Cubes.



Yeah, and the Death Star is powered by a giant Hypermatter Core that generates tens of thousands of yottatons.

Last I checked, the Borg were a super-advanced race that, once adapted, to an energy frequency, shunts 99.9999999% of said energy... well, somewhere. We don't know where. By all accounts shown on screen, once they adapt to a frequency, it doesn't matter HOW strong it is, it won't affect them.

Infinite limits fallacy? You bet. However, it's canon. Thus, we can't just "I don't like it" away...

And proof that HyperMatter = Thousands of Yottatons? Better be good proof, too.

[Kittamaru]

Uh huh... like how the Enterprise crew was shocked to see a planet was "bombarded", yet the planet's crust and atmosphere were still there? Like how a low powered Plasma Torpedo lasted more illuminate than a Quantum Torpedo even though it was set on a lower setting?

Of COURSE they were shocked - they expected to find a civilization, not a dead planet. It'd be like you coming home to find your parents dead on the floor with bullets in their skull - I'm pretty sure you'd be shocked...

No it doesn't.



Excluding the kilowatt lasers, there are 12 plasma torpedoes being fired in one volley. Therefor, a ship tends to have 12 plasma torpedo tubes. To achieve 9 exatons in an hour, the torpedoes would have to be doing 5.8 teratons each.


Or they could just mass-spam torpedoes. Or, your 9 exatons figure is BS. Or any number of things - you haven't provided any "proof" to back ANYTHING up.


Yet it isn't when the S8472 ship hits Voyager?

yet what isn't? Last I checked, 8472's Bio-Weapons weren't fucking PHASERS you dimwitted fool! Good god, what kind of fallacious argument are you trying to present here?

[Shogun]

Last I checked, the Borg were a super-advanced race that, once adapted, to an energy frequency, shunts 99.9999999% of said energy... well, somewhere. We don't know where. By all accounts shown on screen, once they adapt to a frequency, it doesn't matter HOW strong it is, it won't affect them.

It seems they have trouble adapting to chemical, kinetic and gravitational energy however. I am not sure about electric and electromagnetic.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Uh huh... like how the Enterprise crew was shocked to see a planet was "bombarded", yet the planet's crust and atmosphere were still there? Like how a low powered Plasma Torpedo lasted more illuminate than a Quantum Torpedo even though it was set on a lower setting?

Umm... Again, that Quantum torp was intended to disperse a chemical through a planet's atmosphere, not cause a maximum yield boom. You have established a minimum yield for the Quantum torpedo, yet you continue to use it as a maximum yield.

No it doesn't.

Excluding the kilowatt lasers, there are 12 plasma torpedoes being fired in one volley. Therefor, a ship tends to have 12 plasma torpedo tubes. To achieve 9 exatons in an hour, the torpedoes would have to be doing 5.8 teratons each.

Then what's even the point of having the kilowatt lasers in the first place? You could split just ONE of those torpedoes at a billionth of that yield, and still have over 24,000 times more firepower than those kilowatt lasers could possibly have. The energy difference between a multi-teraton warhead and a kilowatt-range laser is greater than the energy difference between a full broadside from an Iowa class battleship and a sailor pissing off the deck. Literally.

If the lasers are kilowatt, yet the torpedoes are teraton range... That's a difference by a factor of over 24 trillion.

I speculate that the plasma torpedoes are not a DET weapon. That is the only logical explanation for such a massive discrepancy in firepower between the torpedoes and the lasers

Additionally, it's important to note that in Ghosts of Onyx, the UNSC Dusk laid a field of 14 HORNET thermonuclear mines, each with a yield of ~2.1 megatons. These were sufficient to destroy 12 Covenant warships and damage 4 more.

Also, in Fall of Reach, a single Shiva thermonuclear warhead was capable of of knocking out the shields of a pair of Covenant frigates with a proximity explosion. The yield of the Shiva is unknown, but a direct hit from a 42 megaton M/AM warhead should easily match or exceed the energy-on-target delivery of the Shiva, even at close range, since the vast majority of the blast energy would miss the frigates, while at least half the blast energy of a photon torp would hit the target, and even more if the indications of the use of shields/forcefields to 'shape' the charge are correct.

Yet it isn't when the S8472 ship hits Voyager?

It doesn't make them uber-doom weapons that obliterate everything instantly, it just means that the NDF effect is going to have the same magnifying effect against shields and armor regardless of the type of shield and armor.

[ricrery]

Last I checked, the Borg were a super-advanced race that, once adapted, to an energy frequency, shunts 99.9999999% of said energy... well, somewhere. We don't know where. By all accounts shown on screen, once they adapt to a frequency, it doesn't matter HOW strong it is, it won't affect them.

Wank all you want, no one that says they can beat a W40k race is going to convince me of anything, and I was referring to when they blew holes in the Cube, without those TDIC levels of energy.

Infinite limits fallacy? You bet. However, it's canon. Thus, we can't just "I don't like it" away...

Yet, they aren't immune to projectiles or even close quarters combat. The Flood would excel at defeating them, like they did with High Charity.

And proof that HyperMatter = Thousands of Yottatons? Better be good proof, too.

The sun generates 3 Yottatons per year, and using the 8,000 year statement, the Death Star beam would generate 24,000 yottatons.

[ricrery]

Umm... Again, that Quantum torp was intended to disperse a chemical through a planet's atmosphere, not cause a maximum yield boom. You have established a minimum yield for the Quantum torpedo, yet you continue to use it as a maximum yield.

You used TDIC like it was average Trek firepower, and I used QT instances where they couldn't even illuminate for a second, seems fair.

Then what's even the point of having the kilowatt lasers in the first place? You could split just ONE of those torpedoes at a billionth of that yield, and still have over 24,000 times more firepower than those kilowatt lasers could possibly have. The energy difference between a multi-teraton warhead and a kilowatt-range laser is greater than the energy difference between a full broadside from an Iowa class battleship and a sailor pissing off the deck. Literally.

Well, they weren't going up against ships, they were going up against this.

If the lasers are kilowatt, yet the torpedoes are teraton range... That's a difference by a factor of over 24 trillion.

Those lasers weren't anti-ship weapons. Torpedoes have a setting for fighters, ships, planets, and etc. but those lasers were probably just anti-fighter weapons.

I speculate that the plasma torpedoes are not a DET weapon. That is the only logical explanation for such a massive discrepancy in firepower between the torpedoes and the lasers

They seem to be.

Additionally, it's important to note that in Ghosts of Onyx, the UNSC Dusk laid a field of 14 HORNET thermonuclear mines, each with a yield of ~2.1 megatons. These were sufficient to destroy 12 Covenant warships and damage 4 more.

They had previously fought, remember? As for that, they seem to follow Star Wars ships a lot; have shields that can withstand teratons, but without them can be disintegrated by megatons.

Also, in Fall of Reach, a single Shiva thermonuclear warhead was capable of of knocking out the shields of a pair of Covenant frigates with a proximity explosion. The yield of the Shiva is unknown, but a direct hit from a 42 megaton M/AM warhead should easily match or exceed the energy-on-target delivery of the Shiva, even at close range, since the vast majority of the blast energy would miss the frigates, while at least half the blast energy of a photon torp would hit the target, and even more if the indications of the use of shields/forcefields to 'shape' the charge are correct.

Inconsistent with 2 gigaton - 5.8 teraton torpedoes.

[Apocalypse2001]

You used TDIC like it was average Trek firepower, and I used QT instances where they couldn't even illuminate for a second, seems fair.

This is proof that you NEVER had any idea about what you are talking. Why does illumination matter?!! It a fucking vacuum. Why do all weapons have to have a light show?? Or maybe you want to eem ever more stupid in correlating light with how effective the weapon is?!

Those lasers weren't anti-ship weapons. Torpedoes have a setting for fighters, ships, planets, and etc. but those lasers were probably just anti-fighter weapons.

uh huh...."torpedoes" huh? Obviously you leave out specifics, as usual to pretend like you have evidence.

They had previously fought, remember? As for that, they seem to follow Star Wars ships a lot; have shields that can withstand teratons, but without them can be disintegrated by megatons.

uh huh. A pencil can kill someone. But you don't see us saying that the pencil can kill you only if you don't have skin

go play in your sandbox now, and talk to your imaginary friend.

[ricrery]

This is proof that you NEVER had any idea about what you are talking. Why does illumination matter?!! It a fucking vacuum. Why do all weapons have to have a light show?? Or maybe you want to eem ever more stupid in correlating light with how effective the weapon is?!

... The fuck? It hit a PLANET. That has vacuum, it's not outer space.

uh huh...."torpedoes" huh? Obviously you leave out specifics, as usual to pretend like you have evidence

If you even knew an iota of Halo, you would know that there is only ONE type of torpedo, it's called a PLASMA TORPEDO. God, if you don't even the basics of the universe you're debating against, then don't debate.

uh huh. A pencil can kill someone. But you don't see us saying that the pencil can kill you only if you don't have skin

OH God... do you understand how other universes work? Well, considering you only talk about universes with STAR in them, I wouldn't be surprised if you have never heard of Halo.

go play in your sandbox now, and talk to your imaginary friend.

Learn how to quote. No one likes the terrible way you respond.

[Kittamaru]

Wank all you want, no one that says they can beat a W40k race is going to convince me of anything, and I was referring to when they blew holes in the Cube, without those TDIC levels of energy.

Except those holes are WHERE they drew those energy calcs from, noob.

Yet, they aren't immune to projectiles or even close quarters combat. The Flood would excel at defeating them, like they did with High Charity.

And once unacceptable losses occured, the Borg would adapt to kinetic/ H2H combat. Obviously, CQC combat doesn't occur much, so the borg haven't adapted. Prove to me they cannot adapt to KE weapons.

The sun generates 3 Yottatons per year, and using the 8,000 year statement, the Death Star beam would generate 24,000 yottatons.

Uh... what? What are you smoking, and can I have some?

[Kittamaru]

Ricrery, I have to ask, and I'm not flaming here...

are you mentally retarded? Or just a major Trek hater? Or perhaps you've never actually watched Trek, and all your "facts" are from SD.net?

I dunno... but your lack of skill in... well, anything actually, is kind of saddening.

[Kittamaru]

Well, they weren't going up against ships, they were going up against this.

Actually, i can prove right now that those "plasma torpedoes" are no more than a few kilotons at best:



those explosions are missiles being destroyed not more than a FEW METERS (at most) to A FEW FEET away from the Spartans. If those had been "teraton level" missiles, the blasts and shrapnel from such explosions would, at the VERY least, throw the Spartans (and their little hoverbikes) around like rag-dolls... as it is, there is NO effect what so ever.

Thus, they are not more than kilotons.

/thread

[Kittamaru]

In fact, that video is INCREDIBLY damning to Halo - Vulcan Canons ripping into enemy fighters like tissue paper, Spartan Lasers (handheld weapons) blowing through bulkheads... what does the Covenent make their ships out of? Wet toilet paper?

[Omega133]

/thread

Are you kidding? This thread will never end.

[Kittamaru]

Are you kidding? This thread will never end.

Well, I meant more along the lines of Riceroni's "OH MAH GOD HALO IS TEH PWNZOR ALL OF SCI FI EFAN TREKSLOL!" BS.

[Omega133]

Well, I meant more along the lines of Riceroni's "OH MAH GOD HALO IS TEH PWNZOR ALL OF SCI FI EFAN TREKSLOL!" BS.

Oh, ok.

[Kittamaru]

Yeah, I mean... while that video is cool and all (and may actually get me to dl halo legends to watch), it's pretty damning evidence... BULLETS (subsonic ones at that) are a MAJOR threat to the Covenant fighters? Really? That's... pretty bad...

[ricrery]

Actually, i can prove right now that those "plasma torpedoes" are no more than a few kilotons at best:

Actually, I can prove right now why Star Trek uses gigawatts to terawatts. See, the Jem'Hadar fired a hit several Isotons worth at Sisko, and they were no more than a hundred meters away.

those explosions are missiles being destroyed not more than a FEW METERS (at most) to A FEW FEET away from the Spartans. If those had been "teraton level" missiles, the blasts and shrapnel from such explosions would, at the VERY least, throw the Spartans (and their little hoverbikes) around like rag-dolls... as it is, there is NO effect what so ever.

... Novels override anything in Halo: Legends that isn't consistent. It's like G-Canon to C-Canon. Therefor, they are still firing teraton bombs.

Thus, they are not more than kilotons.

Thus, a Photon Torpedo is no more than a kiloton.

/thread

/thread

[Shogun]

Ricrery, I have to ask, and I'm not flaming here...

are you mentally retarded? Or just a major Trek hater? Or perhaps you've never actually watched Trek, and all your "facts" are from SD.net?

I dunno... but your lack of skill in... well, anything actually, is kind of saddening.

I suspect that he thinks SD.net is his bible, Mike Wong his god and TW Scott his prophet. Or something along the lines of that

[ricrery]

Yeah, I mean... while that video is cool and all (and may actually get me to dl halo legends to watch), it's pretty damning evidence... BULLETS (subsonic ones at that) are a MAJOR threat to the Covenant fighters? Really? That's... pretty bad...

That was a prototype, want to see how fucked up Legends prototypes are? Look at this!

Must have been made by Gundam writers.

[Omega133]

Must have been made by Gundam writers.

Pfft. Gundam is awesome.