View Poll Results: Which universe would win?

Voters
670. This poll is closed
  • Star Trek

    227 33.88%
  • Star Wars

    285 42.54%
  • Spaceballs

    51 7.61%
  • Farscape

    14 2.09%
  • Dune

    54 8.06%
  • Stargate

    39 5.82%

Thread: Star Wars vs Star Trek

  1. #20441
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricrery View Post
    bullshit
    I see a lot of circumstantial evidence here that really doesn't apply to the question at hand - where as ID has run the numbers, you are content to spout the same shit over and over again. I can, literally, call you an asshole for that, because that is the function of an asshole (or anus) - to excrete shit. And that is just what your previous post is - an excretion of shit.

    Post some proof, or don't post. It's pretty simple.

  2. #20442
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru View Post
    I see a lot of circumstantial evidence here that really doesn't apply to the question at hand - where as ID has run the numbers, you are content to spout the same shit over and over again. I can, literally, call you an asshole for that, because that is the function of an asshole (or anus) - to excrete shit. And that is just what your previous post is - an excretion of shit.

    Post some proof, or don't post. It's pretty simple.
    I did, now go find proof that it isn't true, because this was given by people smarter than anyone here.

  3. #20443
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricrery View Post

    A) Starship Down: The unshielded Defiant (the uber armored vessel of the fleet that can slag a planet in under 15 minutes) is struck by what could only be best described as a dozen megajoules of kinetic energy from a wayward torpedo. The torpedo manages to sheer clean through the armor despite the fact that torpedoes are not constructed from horribly dense materials.

    Yes, this does happen - after the ship is beaten to HELL by the Jem'Hadar fighters... and no, it isn't a "wayward torpedo". I can post the entire episode summary if you would like, but you would ignore it.

    B) Tomorrow is Yesterday: A F-104 Starfighter manages to threaten an unshielded Enterprise with the use of a 1.5 kiloton air-to-air nuclear missile.

    Of course - in an atmosphere, the pressure of such an explosion would be far, FAR greater than such an explosion in space. Or don't you know anything about physics? Oh, wait.

    C) Rise: The Voyager is incapable of vaporizing an asteroid approximately 200 meters in length, approximate yield to vaporize such a target is 60 megatons.

    This is absolutely false - the asteroid is not even an asteroid. It's a WEAPON, constructed by a hostile race to bombard the planet, forcing it's evacuation so that they can claim it as their own. The materials used to construct the asteroid are similar to what is used to build a STARSHIP. Hence, their expected energy requirement to vaporize the asteroid was wrong as it was not, in fact, made of the materials they had anticipated. It was because of a dampening field in the "asteroid" that they did not detect the actual materials. Good job trying to take something COMPLETELY out of context.

    D) They are reluctant to approach a neutron star to less than 10 million km range.

    The gravitational field at the star's surface is about 2 × 1011 times stronger than on Earth. The escape velocity is about 100,000 km/s, which is about one third the speed of light. Such a strong gravitational field acts as a gravitational lens and bends the radiation emitted by the star such that parts of the normally invisible rear surface become visible.[8]

    The gravitational binding energy of a neutron star with two solar masses is equivalent to the total conversion of one solar mass to energy (from the law of mass-energy equivalence, E = mc2). That energy was released during the supernova explosion.

    A neutron star is so dense that one teaspoon (5 milliliters) of its material would have a mass over 5.5×1012 kg, about 900 times the mass of the Great Pyramid of Giza.[9] The resulting force of gravity is so strong that if an object were to fall from a height of one meter it would only take one microsecond to hit the surface of the neutron star, and would do so at around 2000 kilometers per second, or 7.2 million kilometers per hour.[10]

    The temperature inside a newly formed neutron star is from around 1011 to 1012 kelvin.[5] However, the huge number of neutrinos it emits carries away so much energy that the temperature falls within a few years to around 1 million kelvin.[5] Even at 1 million kelvin, most of the light generated by a neutron star is in X-rays. In visible light, neutron stars probably radiate approximately the same energy in all parts of visible spectrum, and therefore appear white.

    The equation of state (EOS) for a neutron star is still not known. It is assumed that it differs significantly from that of a white dwarf, whose EOS is that of a degenerate gas which can be described in close agreement with special relativity. However, with a neutron star the increased effects of general relativity can no longer be ignored. Several EOS have been proposed (FPS, UU, APR, L, SLy, and others) and current research is still attempting to constrain the theories to make predictions of neutron star matter.[1][11] This means that the relation between density and mass is not fully known, and this causes uncertainties in radius estimates. For example, a 1.5 solar mass neutron star could have a radius of 10.7, 11.1, 12.1 or 15.1 kilometres (for EOS FPS, UU, APR or L respectively).[11] All EOS show that neutronium compresses with pressure.

    No SHIT they don't want to get too close!


    E) A terawatt-range “energy emitter” (albeit using an unspecified type of energy) can overload GCS shields in less than a minute (50 terawatts = 11 kilotons, or about the amount you put an average ISD at).

    episode?

    F) Federation shield power require gigawatts as of late TOS.

    episode?

    G) GCS shields can't deflect the heat of atmospheric reentry, and the hull will heat up a lot even before shields fail.

    episode?

    H) The Quantum Torpedoes in this video give us yields in the kilotons at best.

    How do you figure this? The concussive waves of those blasts were HUNDREDS, if not THOUSANDS of miles in diameter. If you freeze-frame the image of the blast, you will note that each blast covers about 1/3rd of the visible planet. Now, as I don't know the episode, I dont' know what planet that is, so it could be a gas giant or a mercury sized planet, and thus cannot begin to give you a viable size estimate. Needless to say - that is NOT a "few kilotons" at best - that is well in the multi-megaton range at LEAST.

    Star Trek doesn't seem to be an OoM stronger than your SW ships.
    Only when you take the above examples COMPLETELY out of context can you make the assertions you try here... I honestly pity you if you don't have the logical facilities to tell that for yourself.

  4. #20444
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricrery View Post
    I did, now go find proof that it isn't true, because this was given by people smarter than anyone here.
    Done and done. And who might those people be, hm? A few friends over at SD.net perhaps? That is worth a good ROFL, or at the very least a saving LOL.

  5. #20445
    No, L-W, a guy who's beating the shit out of this guy called "Picard578", proceed to post #66

  6. #20446
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricrery View Post
    No, L-W, a guy who's beating the shit out of this guy called "Picard578", proceed to post #66
    L-W, a guy who consistently ignores what is stated by STARFLEET ENGINEERS as well as CAPTAINS to be the capability of their ships weapons (not to mention Reeds estimate was FAR under for the Phase Cannons... they were far more potent than he expected). L-W, a guy who DENIES on-screen evidence as "circumstantial" and "inadmissible." L-W, a guy who cherry picks to the extreme what evidence he wants to use, including the LINES OF SCRIPT from an episode, so as to try to paint Trek in a weaker picture.

    That L-W? Yeah, he'd make a good politician... not so much an engineer.

    Some of L-W's arguments:

    5) A weapon carrying “four hundred gigawatts of particle energy” can knock down GCS shields, which must be “re-assembled” after being knocked down.
    6) There is a pulsar in Federation space whose radiation will knock down GCS shields after 18 minutes at 20 million km range.
    8B) A fully-shielded GCS is noticeably affected by mere 2.1MJ disruptors, with bridge quaking which indicates a brief disruption of propulsion or inertial control systems (that simply isn’t enough energy to physically rock the ship).
    Now, if you really can't tell me why those statements alone show A) his bias and B) his idiocy, then I feel bad for you.

  7. #20447
    Then why don't you argue with him? He is steamrolling Picard578 right now. Really, if Rama was a bad debater, then what is a good debater? Other than someone who says "PRETTY PICTURES PROVE MY POINT"

  8. #20448
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru
    Sure does - it's the POWA OF PLOT (tm)
    Ciaphas Cain is an OoM more powerful than anyone in ST.

    Doesn't matter - remember, Fed starships don't need to be in orbit to blow the planet's crust away. You DO recall the 200,000km + range on photon torpedoes, right? Basicly, the Ent-E could be sitting beside the Moon and blowing your Titans away on Earth
    Really? W40k ranges go up to 400,000 km, twice as much as ST ranges. Ignoring those anti-ship weapons, we also have Volcano Cannons that can level cities (bigger than modern day ones) and fire twice at the same time. They are in the megatons to gigatons, and are incapable of taking each other out in one shot unless it's a finishing move. Like ST ships could take them on.

  9. #20449
    Quote Originally Posted by ricrery View Post
    Star Trek Figures:
    A) 10-50 megatons photon torpedoes (Rise, Pegasus, Tears of the Prophets).
    B) 1 megaton to 500 megatons (absolute maximum) photon torpedoes (Pegasus, depending on how many torpedoes were left).
    C) Sub-kiloton level energy weapons (Return to Grace, Inheritance).
    Regarding C., in "Inheritance" they're drilling a hole into the mantle of a planet. The energy levels discharged were never specified, and it was never specified if they were discharging at maximum yield. Actually, because they were firing a sustained beam, with no concern for beam duration time, implies that they were discharging well below maximum yield. This does not contradict higher yield figures we see in other instances, such as "Q Who?" when we see low petajoule-range energy discharges, and low exajoule-range yield effects against the unadapted Cube.

    In "Return to Grace" we see the jury-rigged disruptor cannon destroy an asteroid that appears to be at least 2/3s the width of a Bird-of-Prey (eyeballing it based on the size of the pulses relative to the BoP and relative to the asteroid, making it ~90 meters in diameter) with an impressive explosion, and a minimum yield can be calculated from that, but determining the energy of the yield is still difficult. For all we know, the bolt punched right through the asteroid, obliterating it yet leaving most of the bolt intact. We know this didn't happen with the bolts in SW, because we can see the backfield behind the shot (and in TESB, we are IN the backfield), so we know the entire bolt was absorbed. In this case, the backfield of the target is obscured by the exploding target, making it impossible to know for sure if that was all the energy in the shot.

    It should be noted, however, that even if it WAS all the energy in the shot, it's still much more impressive than the shot we observe in Wars. The ~90-meter asteroid is completely obliterated, with only small chunks and debris, much more impressive than the light turbolaser bolt popping a 20-meter diameter asteroid with similar results. It was also apparently a rather weak shot, since we've seen capital ship weapons obliterate BoPs with single shots, and other weapons from even relatively small ships do more damage to Klingon BoPs. With a proper power source, the disruptor may have been able to fire more powerful shots, or at least at a much higher rate of fire.

    So we have a Wars light secondary gun popping a 20-meter asteroid with all its energy, and a Trek light or medium gun mounted on an inadequate freighter popping a 90-meter asteroid with similar results. Given that the 90-meter asteroid is much more than 10 times the size of the 20-meter asteroid (~90 times, in fact, almost two orders of magnitude).

    It should also be noted that the first asteroid Dukat pops looks very similar to the asteroid popped in TESB when it explodes. Getting a firm size is difficult, but eyeballing it from the beam, it looks to be roughly comparable in size to the TESB asteroid. The beam duration of the Cardassian phaser was longer than the duration of the Imperial turbolaser pulse, so the turbolaser would have been more effective, but but if it's still a comparable amount of energy discharged, it would have trouble doing anything to an unshielded BoP.



    Quote Originally Posted by ricrery View Post
    But let's ignore that and use more instances.

    A) Starship Down: The unshielded Defiant (the uber armored vessel of the fleet that can slag a planet in under 15 minutes) is struck by what could only be best described as a dozen megajoules of kinetic energy from a wayward torpedo. The torpedo manages to sheer clean through the armor despite the fact that torpedoes are not constructed from horribly dense materials.
    True, the velocity of the torpedo was ridiculously low, and while the atmospheric pressure would have an effect on increasing the ability of the torpedo to penetrate, I don't think that's enough to explain it. We have also seen more energetic impacts with less damage/penetration, including ships and shuttles crashing into the ground.

    We know for a fact that Starship construction materials are exceptionally strong; tritanium is 21 times harder than diamond, and duranium is exceptionally dense (an isotope of duranium, duranium-235, is equal in mass to the main uranium isotope used in fission bombs, over four times as dense as iron (most common isotope has an atomic mass of 56). It is unlikely that a torpedo with a kinetic energy of only a few megajoules would be able to penetrate over two meters of even tin or copper, let alone an alloy of metals that are harder than diamond and at least as dense as uranium. It's also interesting to note that the torpedo itself, with a much, much thicker skin, is not deformed in the least. Even if it was made of stronger materials than the hull of the ship, penetrating that much metal should have at least deformed it considerably, yet it doesn't even look scratched. This suggests that it wasn't the kinetic impact alone that allowed it to penetrate.



    Quote Originally Posted by ricrery View Post
    B) Tomorrow is Yesterday: A F-104 Starfighter manages to threaten an unshielded Enterprise with the use of a 1.5 kiloton air-to-air nuclear missile.
    Yes, the nuke could have done significant damage to the Enterprise, and this is not inconsistent with the weapons yields of the TOS era. In the TNG-era, however, weapons yields and endurance have increased significantly.


    Quote Originally Posted by ricrery View Post
    C) Rise: The Voyager is incapable of vaporizing an asteroid approximately 200 meters in length, approximate yield to vaporize such a target is 60 megatons.
    They fully expected to vaporize the asteroid, leaving nothing bigger than a centimeter in diameter. It turned out to be composed of different, denser, and apparently more brittle material (brittle is important, because it would fracture and be propelled away after absorbing less energy) than their scans detected, and is common in asteroids. It also contained manufactured technological components that may have added to the asteroid's structural integrity. They THOUGHT they were dealing with a typical asteroid, and the results they expected can be applied to a typical asteroid. The fact that their scans were wrong and that it was NOT a typical asteroid, and the results for an ATYPICAL asteroid were not the same as the results they expected for a TYPICAL asteroid, do not negate what was expected for a typical asteroid.


    Quote Originally Posted by ricrery View Post
    D) They are reluctant to approach a neutron star to less than 10 million km range.
    And yet we've seen ships and shuttles fly into the coronas of stars before, and we've even seen Birds-of-Prey skim the surface of a star.


    Quote Originally Posted by ricrery View Post
    E) A terawatt-range “energy emitter” (albeit using an unspecified type of energy) can overload GCS shields in less than a minute (50 terawatts = 11 kilotons, or about the amount you put an average ISD at).
    Yet we see them withstand 100-200+ petajoule torpedo blasts. We know that there are exotic energy weapons in Trek that play havoc with shields and materials not hardened against them, and the main weapons in Trek are prime examples. Phasers, for example, have typical energy yields in the high terajoule to low petajoule range, yet against unhardened targets have the effect of a discharge in the high petajoule to low exajoule range.


    Quote Originally Posted by ricrery View Post
    F) Federation shield power require gigawatts as of late TOS.
    The transport ship Jenolan had some number of gigawatts at least in use in the shields (since Scotty could squeeze a few more gigawatts out). How many gigawatts were already in use, and how that compares to a fully-functional starship is unknown.


    Quote Originally Posted by ricrery View Post
    G) GCS shields can't deflect the heat of atmospheric reentry, and the hull will heat up a lot even before shields fail.
    That has more to do with the nature of Trek shields. They project a constant, relatively low-level field that can spike up tremendously high around a concentrated point for brief moments (such as when the Constitution class Enterprise was able to spike the output of the generators high enough to deflect an energy blast equivalent to 90 photon torpedoes). This makes them susceptible to lower levels of energy that are all-pervasive, however, as the generators can only spike up so high.

    Additionally, the velocity of the Enterprise and the Echo Papa 607 drone through the atmosphere is not known.


    Quote Originally Posted by ricrery View Post
    H) The Quantum Torpedoes in this video give us yields in the kilotons at best.

    Star Trek doesn't seem to be an OoM stronger than your SW ships.
    Are you sure? Assuming an ~Earth-sized planet, that fireball looks quite considerable in size. The atmospheric shockwave is also quite considerable. Besides, the torps were being used as a delivery method for trilithium resin, not for raw explosive yield (and for the record, Sisko should have been hanged for over a dozen court-martialable offenses he committed in firing upon Solosos III).

  10. #20450
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Thanks for the backup ID - you know more in-depth info about each instance than I do

  11. #20451
    That's because I only maintain the clever illusion of a life. } ; = 8 P

  12. #20452
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilithi_Dragon View Post
    That's because I only maintain the clever illusion of a life. } ; = 8 P
    I have sentenced you as a heretic, have a nice day.

  13. #20453
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricrery View Post
    I have sentenced you as a heretic, have a nice day.
    I have sentenced you as a Hatter - enjoy your mercury poisoning

  14. #20454
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru View Post
    I have sentenced you as a Hatter - enjoy your mercury poisoning
    Doesn't scare me.

  15. #20455
    Quote Originally Posted by ricrery View Post
    I have sentenced you as a heretic, have a nice day.
    Mmmm, delicious heresy...

  16. #20456
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricrery View Post
    Doesn't scare me.
    Then you've never seen Johnny Depp as the Mad Hatter in Alice in Wonderland... else it would terrify you beyond all reason.

  17. #20457
    everybody, here is a video of a favorite guy of mine who makes amazing videos. The graphics/composite work in this will put a smile on your face. And of those of you who know how sluggish and sloppy an At-At is, will find this hilarious:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CVYOCMpJRY

  18. #20458
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittamaru View Post
    Then you've never seen Johnny Depp as the Mad Hatter in Alice in Wonderland... else it would terrify you beyond all reason.


    I've seen worse. I'm also waiting for Kittamaru to go argue with L-W.

    Kittamaru's Status: Dead, presumed eaten by locals.
    Last edited by ricrery; 06-27-10 at 04:40 PM.

  19. #20459
    Goddamn Zinc is stupid.

  20. #20460
    Purveyor of Truth and Fact Kittamaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricrery View Post


    I've seen worse. I'm also waiting for Kittamaru to go argue with L-W.

    Kittamaru's Status: Dead, presumed eaten by locals.
    Why would I go "argue" with a moron like L-W? Only a fool argues with a fool... and L-W is a mega-ultra-fool for spouting some of the shit he's blowin.

    Oh, and "seeing" worse and "being" worse are two very different things - you don't know what mercury poisoning does to you, do you.

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