Star Wars vs Star Trek

[TW Scott]

Actually we're going to to do that with Phasers too. While it is nice to say they travel at light Canon has shown they don't. In every episode and movie the Phasers and Phaser bursts are shown as considerably slower. Since the film takes priority we have to go by that. We could be fair and give both sides C energy weapons, but I think we're gonna find Turbo Lasers and Phasers are slower. The Super Laser however will be C.

Then we are going to have to figure maximum effective combat range. No tech manuals involved. We'll go by film footage.

Then effective Firepower. There have been some MAJOR headaches caused in that department by treknobabble. Tech manuals are fine but give a distinct advantage to Star Wars, then again so does Canon material.

I think in each case we'll find Star Wars is a winner. Why? Becuase Star Trek film does not match the wild abilities that some people claim.

[mars13]

phasers travel at close to c[they can cover200,000km in less then a second,and that was in an episode],and when fired at warp[using abc]they can exceed c.[both have been shown in episodes]tng ''the wounded'' shows the phasers distance and a ds9 episode[i think]shows them firing at ftl speeds.

but i agree we should stick to VISUAL evidence whenever possible.

so,since we are using visual evidence,how fast are TLs?i have read a few calculations and most say between 1000km/s to7500km/s.

then we can move on to attack distance.

[TW Scott]

That was assuming a Star Destoryer is 1000 meters and that the focal length of 35mm lens is always 35mm even when zooming.

As for the faster than light phasers, is it just me or do they are almost always seem to be firing backwards? As in firing at ships behind them. I could be wrong but most of the warp speed phaser shots I have see have been to the rear.

[mars13]

its the same effect when a wheel looks like its going backwards.

its an optical illusion.


and arent SD 1600meters?not feet.

[TW Scott]

Yes Star Destroyers are 1600 meter was just reiterating a fallacy they had on their board.

Our main problem is figuring distances much like in Star Trek. We do they travel quickly, very quickly as in TPM the Trade Federation ships were in high orbit the moment the ship was in view at all the Trade federation started firing. The bolts were there in less than a second.

[mars13]

what was the distance between thos two ships?

and how do you know the time of travel?


and the st-v-sw.net site said meters on its TL speed/distance calculater,which OTHER site are you refering to?

[TW Scott]

One of many sites I would rather not send people to lest they lose IQ points.

The st-v-sw site you mention is so full of glaring inconsistancies, faulty math, erroneous assumptions, and outright lies to make it of less use than wet toilet paper. I have seen a list of faults there and could add a few of my own.

[mars13]

if you find a fault,the guy who runs that site will fix it if your right.


what about the TLs?

[TW Scott]

All right we know from novelization you have to be at about 50,000km out from a planet to make the jump to hyperspace. Now assuming the trade federation was parked 10,000km inside of that. We have a little less than 40,000km. To make it easy 40,000km and closing. The bolts are taking from less than a second to hit. So speeds in excess of 40,000km/s Probably closer to 80k a second. This also fits ROTJ when the Star Destroyers were keeping the rebels pinned.

[mars13]

so phasers are faster then TLs,agreed?

now on to distance.

phasers DO have a maximum effective distance of 300,000km,and they are generaly used between very short distances up to their effective range.they are PINPOINT accurate up too their max effect range with a stationary ship,but accuracy decreases with ship movement. phasers hit much more then they miss[id estimate it in the high 80%,but some actual numbers would be nice,ill look].

[TW Scott]

no we did not agree phasers were faster, yet. The certainly look slower than C in the shows. if they were C it would be like lightning. Starting at the ground and going up but looks like it is coming down.

Don't count your chickens so quickly

[mars13]

thats why i asked you if you agree.if you havent then what do you consider phaser speed to be.



and heres a forum thread about the defiant vs a sw gunship of equal size.

it has some good numbers for the defiants FIXED phase cannon accuracy[60-77%] and for its phaser array[100%] assuming the numbers are accurate.combined thats 84% accurate[i used 68% for the phase cannon accuracy].

http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/ar...ex.php/t-12712

[TW Scott]

Okay I see the basic phasers as being 120,000km/s as an average. With the phaser bursts of the defiant we slow it down a little.

For accuracy I am going to say they both are roughly the same accuracy. Except a SW vessel does not get less accurate as it moves. For some reason in Star trek they put their weapons on computer control. Not even a good computer. Meanwhile the SW uses actual gunners with targeting computers. A human gunner may start out a little wilder but they get better.

I do call in to question pinpoint accuracy as I has seen the Defiant miss more times than it has hit in some battles. Star Destroyers would be easy to hit, but Tie fighter, not so easy.

Techbook maximum range is irrelavant. We have to go by film. In most multiship battles Starfleet has harkened back to the days of sail ships and cannons. They form a moving wall and fire on the ship nearest them. If their range was so good wouldn't they concentrate fire on one or two targets at a time.

[Kron]

This thread is what I consider to be one of the greatest thread in sciforums; yet mars13 appears to be slowly polluting it as everyone seems to be doing nothing but trying to contradict him. Let's just ignore him.

Incidentally, what would happen if you activate a hyperdrive at warp?

[TW Scott]

Well I think that would be the one time life get really messy. I have this picture in my mind of warp putting the space in the other reality back together in such a way that it destroys everything.


Of course funnier would be that warp drive acts like impulse in hyperspace just to mess with them

[mars13]

how about we ignore KRON because hes an irrational dumbass who doesnt understand the concept of the scientific method and comprimise.we are going over each tech until we get numbers both sides agree on.that is the only way to settle this debate.

and sw doesnt have ANYWHERE near 85% accuracy.[most figures i have seen are between 30-60% at best,ill look for some numbers].

the only thing even getting close to that is the death star.[and shooting a planet from orbit is the EASIST thing someone could do].

in fact,sw doesnt seem to have any targeting other then manual human targeting,[not unlike ww2 gun boats shooting at enemy planes]
if youve ever watched the movies youll notice sw just lays down a ton of fire at incoming ships and hope that does it.
and yes i have seen SDs shoot at asteroids with pinpoint accuracy,BUT they were about 1km off the bow,not very impressive.

meanwhile,the eneterprise shot down 5 incoming small fighters in 2 seconds with 5 shots. against small fighters st
is definitly leading the pack. anytime its a bunch of little shuttle type ships vs 1 st cap ship,the cap ship mops the floor with the small ships.
phasers are ideal for defence against fighters.

and if you notice,the defiant has a FIXED phase canon,meaning the ship must be manuavered to aim,and it still gets 68% accuracy with it.thats incredible accuracy for ANY battle weapon in almost ANY known war.

phaser arrays however are EASILY getting 90% accuracy,even in battle,RARELY have i ever seen the enterprise miss with phasers[if at all].


plus keep in mind this is just the feds accuracy. but ill try to find the borgs/klingons/romulons accuracy as well and it will make a nice comparision.overall id say all of trek is batting .800 as an average,but ill find some more numbers.

[Arquibus]

First off, the turbolasers travel significantly faster than they appear. The light given off is a side effect of the explosive gas that is used to fire the bolt. Next, consider, for accuracy's sake, that there are multiple different circumstances that attribute to it. Accuracy cannot have a meaningful average because of different crew training, different battle plans and philosophies, different weapons, and different targeting computers. Next...

Okay Mars, I think you misunderstood about SW canon. The movies take precedence over everything else. Fact. However, after that official books, that is those with Lucas's endorsement (almost everything else) is canon as long as it doesn't interfere with the movies. Next comes thing with questionable ties to Lucas, maybe like the comic books, but as long as they don't interfere with the first two, they are canon as well.

Planet destruction-Death Star, Second Death Star, Death Star Prototype, Sun Crusher, Galaxy Gun, World Devastators, Centerpoint Station, Eclipse-class Star Destroyers, Sovereign-class Star Destroyers, Darksaber, Dovin Basals, Tarkin Sation, and possibly others.

Other Superweapons of various types-Krytos Virus, Star Forge, Neutron Bombing, Torpedoe Sphere, Force mind bomb, and I know other things that I cannot remember.

Oh, and I believe you asked for some piece of technology SW has that ST doesn't? Two words: Ion Cannon.

[TW Scott]

Mars I call BS on that accuracy claim of yours. We have all seen battles where the accuracy was closer to 20% and that was versus ships of their own size. Their is no excuse to miss that much against a target your own size. Especially for ships with supposedly great sensors.

Turbolaser batteries have their own individual targeting computers which help the gunner, not take his place. They can also tie into the centralo computer for when they perform battery fire, but most of the time it is a gunner with a lot of practice.

As for your pahsers being ideal against fighter they vaporized very low tech fighters. Not higher tech, tougher, more powerful fighters with shields. backed up by a vessel that is clearly more of a threat.

Now you have to quit making claims this early. You are jumping you gun Mars13.

For arguments sake becuase we are dealing with large ships and 80% accuracy for both sides. After all your estimation of spray an pray is obviously false and the Empire does have ECM equipment as standard. Now super guns liike superlasers are a 100%

[Kron]

Why doesn't either SW or ST just lob giant asteroids at their opponents? It seems to be a very economical way of destroying planets and it pretty much the only type of planet-destroyer in Dune.

(Note: Dune also 'destroys' planets by killing everyone on the planet from orbital fire, and reducing the surface of the planet to a burnt husk. Similar to the Star Destroyers' "Turn A Planet's Surface To Slag" claims, but Dune ACTUALLY does it; The Honoured Matres destroyed Arrakis in Heretics of Dune.)

[TW Scott]

Star Wars does it too. An unknown force did it to Camasaii before the emperor took power. ST did it but it took hours and 30 ships. Yuzhan vong did it with just one dovin basal and a moon.

Throwing rocks around is great, but then you run into limited ammo. Where as TurboLasers and Phasers don't need them. And a superlaser is just much fun. Even trekkies want a death star