Star Wars vs Star Trek

[ricrery]

And as I recall that was shot down by ScreenXSurfer in the Xeelee Vs Anything thread.

You actually think Irkens have a chance? Anyways, if you convert tens of thousands of galaxies into a Ring, then you most certainly can destroy their galaxy. Anyway, L-W stated that the Xeelee can accidentally flatten galaxies himself.

[ProphetofWisdom]

You actually think Irkens have a chance? Anyways, if you convert tens of thousands of galaxies into a Ring, then you most certainly can destroy their galaxy. Anyway, L-W stated that the Xeelee can accidentally flatten galaxies himself.

1. No. I was only commenting on the section I put in bold.

2. So the question here is who is right and who is wrong - L-W or ScreenXSurfer?

And I don't doubt the Xeelee can destroy galaxies just that the whole accidentally flatten galaxies thing is wrong it seems.

[ricrery]

1. No. I was only commenting on the section I put in bold.

2. So the question here is who is right and who is wrong - L-W or ScreenXSurfer?

And I don't doubt the Xeelee can destroy galaxies just that the whole accidentally flatten galaxies thing is wrong it seems.

[Shogun]

Lucas also stole ideas from Buckaroo Banzai and a dozen other shows, including Space Battleship Yamato. I guess that means those are SW canon, too? By the logic you used here, they are.

Lucas has used whatever he felt like in his movies. He's read the comics, and taken a few ideas from them, but that's about it.

Space Battleship Yamato is awesome, I can't wait for the movie

[ricrery]

Space Battleship Yamato is awesome, I can't wait for the movie

I hate animes, and I had to say it.

[samaste.march]

The star destroyer is a purpose of built warship, And it is designed specifically to take severe damage and keep fighting. Imperials don't like limiting themselves to a fair fight, Imperial tactics would dictate multiple Star Destroyers, Corellian Corvettes and Victory-class Destroyers and Interdictors. The Enterprise, on the other hand, it would be negotiating alone right up to the point that the first wave of empire fighters and bombers fired.

[Rav]

Seriously guys, this debate boils down to a contest between the Q of Star Trek and the ascended beings of Stargate. But since it's possible to defeat an ascended being through the use of technology (the Sangraal) and the Q have no such weakness, Star Trek wins. Game over. You can all go out now.

[Kittamaru]

The star destroyer is a purpose of built warship, And it is designed specifically to take severe damage and keep fighting. Imperials don't like limiting themselves to a fair fight, Imperial tactics would dictate multiple Star Destroyers, Corellian Corvettes and Victory-class Destroyers and Interdictors. The Enterprise, on the other hand, it would be negotiating alone right up to the point that the first wave of empire fighters and bombers fired.

At which point it would stop negotiating and start firing, obliterating wave after wave of those silly unshielded fighters and lightly-shielded bombers with rapid-fire phaser strikes, then wiping out each weapon turret on the capital ships in question. Then it gets bored and leaves.

See, we can do it to...

[Ilithi_Dragon]

A quick note on Wars fighter/light craft and ground-based firepower:

Some have claimed that an X-Wing starfighter has laser cannons that each have a per-shot yield of 83.68 terajoules (20 kilotons - a 'ton' of TNT is the base unit of measure of the yield of an explosion. The proper units of measure for energy discharges are the SI units Joules (for the amount of energy discharged) and Watts (for the amount of energy discharged over time)).

However, the battle at Hoth demonstrates that this cannot be for a couple reasons, both having to do with the AT-AT. Now, if the Wars starfighters can sport 80+ terajoule cannons in their relatively small frame (there are many jet fighters that are bigger than the X-Wing, etc.), the much, much larger AT-AT, which also has guns that are visibly much larger than the X-Wing's, should be able to sport at least comparable firepower.

But we never see anywhere near this kind of firepower demonstrated. If the AT-AT had even a tenth of that firepower, just ONE could have stood off, fired at the Rebel snow trench fortifications, and wiped out the Rebel's entire infantry defense, leaving only the armored turrets. to defend the line. If the Imperial attack craft had weapons that could release Hiroshima-scale levels of energy per shot, infantry deployed in trenches dug in the snow would have been worse than useless. If Wars ground forces and fighters really did have that kind of firepower, all it would have taken is just one shot at full power from an AT-AT, and every Rebel soldier not in a hardened turret or bunker would have been dead.


The second reason why the AT-AT cannot have anywhere NEAR that kind of firepower is because we DO see it fire at full power. The walker that took out the Rebel generator fired a full-power shot, and the result was FAR FAR less than the 80 terajoule range. The resulting explosion that we see (which may well have come from the generator itself) isn't much bigger than the explosion of a conventional high-yield chemical warhead used by modern-day militaries. It is decidedly LESS than a kiloton-range explosion. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it was smaller than the explosions generated by modern thermobaric bombs. This is from a full power shot that hit and destroyed a generator, and no other shot against the rebels demonstrated that range kind of firepower (suggesting that most of the pyrotechnics came from the generator itself). I'll have to do proper comparisons, of course, but just eyeballing it, the test explosion of the Russian-made АВБПМ (nicknamed "FOAB") thermobaric warhead looks much larger than the generator explosion in EPV, and the FOAB was, at most, 44 tons (with some controversy over that figure, leaving open the possibility that the Russians' stated yield for the bomb was higher than it actually was).

(Apologies for not posting more and sooner; I hit a deer and totaled my car last weekend, which has consumed much of my time and energy over the last week.)

[ricrery]

ID, don't you recall the Slave I firing gigawatt and kiloton level weapons, not including the Seismic Charges? The AT-AT was made from a material that could fly through a star (source needed). 80 terawatts is bullshit, because ICS states 8 terawatts is the amount of firepower a single fighter can achieve.

[Kittamaru]

ID, don't you recall the Slave I firing gigawatt and kiloton level weapons, not including the Seismic Charges? The AT-AT was made from a material that could fly through a star (source needed). 80 terawatts is bullshit, because ICS states 8 terawatts is the amount of firepower a single fighter can achieve.

Uhm... no... An AT-AT could not fly through a star... otherwise it would probably be impervious to lightsabers... or at least, Luke would have fried himself to a crisp thanks to the radiant HEAT given off by a lightsaber cutting through material able to fly through a star...

[Omega133]

The star destroyer is a purpose of built warship, And it is designed specifically to take severe damage and keep fighting. Imperials don't like limiting themselves to a fair fight, Imperial tactics would dictate multiple Star Destroyers, Corellian Corvettes and Victory-class Destroyers and Interdictors. The Enterprise, on the other hand, it would be negotiating alone right up to the point that the first wave of empire fighters and bombers fired.

Wait, since when have Corellian Corvettes been used by the Empire?

[Ilithi_Dragon]

ID, don't you recall the Slave I firing gigawatt and kiloton level weapons, not including the Seismic Charges? The AT-AT was made from a material that could fly through a star (source needed). 80 terawatts is bullshit, because ICS states 8 terawatts is the amount of firepower a single fighter can achieve.

First, I'm going to address the 80 terawatt issue...

20 kilotons is the firepower per-shot that has been claimed by the SDN community for the X-Wing, based on its strafing run against the Death Star (despite the fact that the explosions are far, far, far too small for a Hiroshima-level event, and aren't all that much bigger than the fighter that caused them, which we can see when Luke flies through them). A 20-kiloton explosion is equivalent to 83.68 terajoules of energy (1 ton of TNT is equivalent to 4.184 gigajoules of energy, so 20,000 tons is 83,680 gigajoules, or 83.68 terajoules).

Even 8 terawatts claimed by the ICS is absurdly high. Even assuming a shot of 2 terajoules every quarter-second (giving us four 2-terajoule shots every second for 8 terajoules a second, or 8 terawatts), that's the equivalent of an almost a half-kiloton bomb going off every quarter second. Even if we assume that an AT-AT only has a quarter of that firepower, that is still the equivalent of ten FOABs going off every second. Unshielded, lightly armored infantry in trenches dug into the snow would be completely and utterly wasted against such firepower. It would be worse than useless, because they would be sending men and women to die, without hope of survival, without having any chance of doing anything. The very fact that the Rebels employed infantry dug into snow trenches at all is a very clear indicator that the firepower of Wars ground forces and aerial support forces is far, far lower than the high gigajoule/low terajoule range purported by the ICS books.

Re Slave I: At best, bending-over-backwards best, Slave I was firing 20 gigajoule pulses, and probably a lot lower. The blaster bolts were not vaporizing the asteroids, they were just shattering them. More likely, Slave I's blaster bolts were in the high (6-800) megajoule range. The missile Slave I fired was in the low kiloton range, probably in the same range as the Little Boy and Fat Man bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki (but in a much, much, much smaller package), just by eyeballing the fireball (which, btw, is strong evidence that the asteroid field wasn't actually a vacuum, but had a transparent cloud of gas (remnant atmosphere?), as there would be no fireball in hard vacuum).

The yield of the seismic charge is hard to estimate. Undoubtedly, it is a potent weapon, but it was implied to be an extremely powerful weapon in the movie. The amount of energy the bomb released is very hard to determine because the blast effects did not propagate in a sphere, but rather a flat disk, making the calculations even more difficult. The initial blast itself, before the slicing disk burst out, had no visible effect on the surrounding asteroids. The blast effect itself also had an interesting effect on the asteroids, slicing through them and shattering them, but there was absolutely no thermal effects. Nothing melted or vaporized, it was purely kinetic. They were in an atmosphere of some sorts, but I doubt it was the atmosphere shockwave that created the effect. If I had to guess, I'd say it was some kind of gravitational sheering effect. Again, though, the power is hard to calculate, and it is obviously not a conventional ordnance, as we only see the weapons used that one time.

Kittamaru also has a point about the radiant heat issue.

The fact that unprotected troops can be effective in any way on a Wars battlefield, and the fact that the terrain around them isn't instantly set ablaze is very strong evidence that the weapons yields Wars has at its disposal are far, far, far below the terajoule range for fighters and ground vehicles. Weapons of that magnitude would incinerate any living thing within a kilometer or better of the point of impact.

[Kittamaru]

Ilithi, I've tried to tell them this for... god, probably a year now. it just doesn't sink in *shrugs*

[Shogun]

The fact that unprotected troops can be effective in any way on a Wars battlefield, and the fact that the terrain around them isn't instantly set ablaze is very strong evidence that the weapons yields Wars has at its disposal are far, far, far below the terajoule range for fighters and ground vehicles. Weapons of that magnitude would incinerate any living thing within a kilometer or better of the point of impact.

There are generally two ways to win a war, either the enemy surrendering or ceasing to exist. Infantry won't be necessary in the second option, but it is in the first if without total destruction. Assassins, special forces .ect all technically counts as infantry. There are strategically and tactically important jobs that only infantry can do. I agree that the ground ( especially infantry ) battles in Star Wars is a bit ridiculous. Naval forces are important, so are ground forces. There are jobs that only ground forces can preform.

Besides,

"To the everlasting glory of the Infantry"

- The Ballad of Rodger Young

( No points for guessing where I first heard it from )

[ricrery]

Wait, hold on, those weren't X-Wings that fought the AT-AT's. They were snowspeeders, and they weren't space capable.

[Kittamaru]

And the point of that is what now?

Also, interesting info:

The Holocron is divided into 5 levels (in order of precedence): G-canon, T-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon.

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies (their most recent release), the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself. G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction. Within G-canon, many fans follow an unofficial progression of canonicity where the movies are the highest canon, followed by the scripts, the novelizations, and then the radio plays.

T-canon[1] refers to the canon level comprising only the two television shows: Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series. Its precedence over C-Level canon was confirmed by Chee.[2]

C-canon is primarily composed of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.

S-canon is secondary canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the online roleplaying game Star Wars: Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.

N-canon is non-canon. "What-if" stories (such as stories published under the Star Wars: Infinities label), crossover appearances (such as the Star Wars character appearances in Soulcalibur IV), game statistics, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered official canon by Lucasfilm. A significant amount of material that was previously C-canon was rendered N-canon by the release of Episodes I-III.

Apparently, SW: The Clone Wars overrides everything excepting the movies themselves... awesome. Especially considering the overall accuracy seen in The Clone Wars... heh.

[Ilithi_Dragon]

Wait, hold on, those weren't X-Wings that fought the AT-AT's. They were snowspeeders, and they weren't space capable.

Yes, but that is completely irrelevant. I was not talking about the snowspeeder firepower, I was talking about the claimed firepower of an X-wing, and how it would compare to the firepower of an AT-AT, which we have observed.

[stratos]

Small boys everywhere know that in a fight between any imaginary powers - wherever and whatsoever - one person would reign supreme. James Bond. He just would. The end.

[Omega133]

Small boys everywhere know that in a fight between any imaginary powers - wherever and whatsoever - one person would reign supreme. James Bond. He just would. The end.

Pfft. James Bond couldn't be Darth Maul, or Worf, or Rambo.