Star Wars vs Star Trek

[TW Scott]

Sorry Scott, you claimed to have pictures proving that these weapons are weak, then you better show them. So either show us these images or concede.

Actually, I don;t need images since all you have provides was a quote.

In DS9 continual bombarment with Quantum Torpedoes from Defiant was not cosidered a viable tactic for taking out a renegade Jem H'dar outpost. no if the weapons were able to ignite an atmosphere, this would be unneccesary. The base in question did not have doors and with no atmosphere the Jem H'dar would have simply died.

Again in DS9 the Die is Cast, continual weapons fire from 60+ warships of Romulan and Cardassian make flatened 30 percent of the surface of the planet, but did not ignite the atmosphere.

In Star Trek Generations the destruction of a Bird of Prey and the Warp core breach of Galaxy Class cruiser did not effect the planet they were orbiting in the slightest degree.

In Project: Pegasus, Riker commented it would take the Enterprises entire compliment of Torpedoes to blast apart the 10km diameter asteroid the Enterrise had entered and was trapped in.

In Rise, a Photon torped failed to vaporise and asterois as Ensign Kim expected. The Asteroid Shattered instead, inot pieces larger than human torsos. also of note the Asteroid was composed of a more brittle substance than the Iron-nickel he was expecting.

This is much more proof than you have given.

The atmosphere, of which you speak I believe was polluted to some extent. It wasn't that a phaser could by accident do such a thing, but that it could ignit something that was spread over a large portion of the planet and could cause that effect.

It was an uninhabited planet. The klingons torched it so the Feds and Roms could get the next piece of a DNA puzzle.

Wait, you don't Garak meant a literal cinder do you? No, that's fucking silly. Garak would most likely be talking about the surface of the planet. Ie, cinder doesn't just mean 'small and smoldering', it can be used to describe something. The Defiant just had enough firepower to turn the planet into a cinder in space; ie, burn the surface. Nuclear, global disaster with signicant volcanic activity.

I agree given enough time, but it is the matter of time. They definatly could do it in a day, or two. The population having time to leave the send distress calls. As opposed toa BDZ which one ISD with it's compliment of support craft can perform in hours and without the population escaping or getting out a distress. Of course that is trifle unfair to compare a ship of 50 people versus a ship of over 50,000 people.

And you don't seem to realize that even with this claim, that you still don't just lose gigatons of energy. You will see it. Anti-tank weapons do not require gigatons of energy. In fact, they require a rather small amount. Gigaton level energy weapons however, are not going to just melt through a material with no significant showing. You're going to see all of that energy directed at the fucking ground. Even if it didn't shoot up a nasty storm cloud of shit, there would be a massive crater. There would be steam and heat from achres of land being vaporized. The surface of the surrounding area would be scorched. And that's just one. We're talking about warships that are spitting these out dozens a second. How the fuck is a planet not supposed to be dead, especially in the case of planetary battles?

Okay, first of all the ONLY time that live people see a starship strike on a planet in the books is Admiral Daala using the Knighthammer against the Yavin moon. Direct hits form these guns turned acre wide patches of ground into lava pits thousand of feet deep. Pretty good for a 1meter diameter bolt of energy. Of course those were the shots that hit ground, the ones that hit the Templewere useless as the stone was alchemical treated by the Sith. The temple would survive a supernova.

And furthermore, if this is true, then why was an asteroid field in Downfall of a Droid considered an effective barrier? Grievous directly addressed the threat of ships attacking them from behind by claiming that the rocks would protect them. In fact, if the asteroids were useless to begin with, then Anakin's entire trap wouldn't have ever happened, since he would have then known that Grievous wouldn't bother using the rocks because a fully volley from three Venators would have vaporized any rocks standing in their way. And it in fact, would have even made it more effective because they're directed energy blasts.

First of all it's manuervering through a asteroid field at that speed as well as having enough weapons to vaporize all the rocks in your way. Plus while you are doing that you are basically painting a huge sign that says "I'm trying to sneak up on you." Fianlly you cannot hyperspace through a dense asteroid field.Too many large objects with hyperspace shadows.

Another fact for you since space is a vaccuum there is nothing to conduct the energy from one asteroid to the other. Meaning you hit one little asteroid with 3200 gigatons, all you are doing is creating a wide spreading plasma cloud. So each asteroid would need to be target individually.

No it wouldn't. Do you understand the scale of the sort of power we're talking about? A fifty megaton bomb--with just a fraction of its power focused at the ground, caused a massive sesmic wave that was still detectable on its third way around the Earth. You're not talking about something that's a few times stronger. You're talking about a weapon that's 4,000x the yield and instead of just say, a fraction of that energy going into the planet, you now have about 70-100% of that power going into the planet.

The entire planet is literally going to feel one of those blasts, probably with countless geological results. And that's one. The Venator's main guns have been seen to fire two or three pulses a second. You'd get 32 to 64 shots of that shit flying around.

You are assuming that the force of the strike is physical and concussive. If it was a bomb i would agree, however it's energy. It's just going to rapidly melt a whole through the crust. Yes, there will be some work heat explosion but they're not going to be remotely as power as the tzar bomb in concussive blasts.
Two massive warships duking it out over the planet are going to not only be noticed, but they're going to make the second coming look like Mr. Rogers taking a stroll around the block.

Really? Let's see that. Because Downfall of a Droid spits right in the face of that. And it's T canon.

Actually, we have yet to see ruling on that. And even if we do, there is always variable power level, which you Trekkies have been claming all along. (though for the life of me the best we ever see of a photon isn't even as impressive as that 100 ton dynamite video)

Really? How about the fact that Saxon's numbers are based entirely on bullshit? He based his entire figures on the mixing of two sources which had nothing to do with each other. Fuck, do you even know that a Base Delta Zero doesn't use one ship? Did you know that it doesn't assume lack of space superority? Did you know that clean up operations require TIE fighters? Did you know that after one naval captain was to perform a Base Delta Zero, he would have to go down and inspect the damage? Did you know he was horrified at having to look at charred corpses? Did you know that Saxon assumed his figures for Base Delta Zero based on the idea of taking an ISD could 'slag a planet' from an RPG book and applied it to Base Delta Zero? That he then assumed that this would be done with one ship and that it wouldn't have space superority?

Saxon got his bullshit numbers by cherry picking canon figures and it shows. Fuck, there's even a case where an ISD is trying to melt through ice to get to a ship with Han's son on it on a planet. Guess what didn't happen? Them making it in one or two shots and massive melting of the planet as well as massive steam and heat via gigatons of energy being poured directly into the planet.

Small Problem, Lucas hired Saxton to write the technical manual AFTER seeing his work. Thus it is canon.

Oh and I fully understand what a BDZ requires and I has been pulled on heavily guarded planets with as little as one ISD. Though the usual is 3.

BTW for a picture the TK event that destroyed the dinosuars is assumed to be a multi hundred terraton level impact. making even the 200gigaton turbolasers look like a BB gun.

Prove it.

Okay, read the material. Palpatine coddled the Core Worlds. Even when he destroyed Alderaan he had to paint it as he was destroying a entire government corrupted into stockpiling and manufacturing weapons that he claimed were used to kill innoccent Citizens.

Really? Beause most sources name the Mon Cals as the only capital ship builders of the Republic, with a few others naming one other source. Everything else produced fighters.

Or did you miss that little fact?

Sullustans produced Capital Ships not many, but some. Corellion Engineering Coproration produced Capital ships for anyone who could afford them. Kuat Drive yards man facility was in the new republic and was taken over by the new republic. I know much more about shipyards than you might think.

An inconvinience? How? By showing that he couldn't dispose of them at a moment's notice? And that when he tried, he utterly failed? Is that also why the Imperial fleet didn't invade the one ship yard producing warships that could tangle with an Imperial Star Destroyer and come out in better condition?

Actually Mon Calamari was one of the most heavily defended worlds in the Galaxy. Right up there with Coruscant, Corellia, and Bast. Infiltration was hard as the Emperor made the mistake of ppressing the Mon Cals and the Quarren. Direct assualt was out as the Mon Cal had some of the best Shields in the Galaxy and back up for each of the main generators. It would have taken the Death Star to do anything to that planet. By that time Palpatine, blinded by arrogance, was going to use himself as bait in a trap to cripple the alliance. Notice the word cripple. he needed the Rebellion in order to maintian the fear he needed to stay in power. It was a calculated risk, but one he felt comfortable in.

No he couldn't. Because those rebellious systems don't trust the Empire. And even if they believed that Starfleet performed a General Order 24 on a planet, they'd probably suspect that it was out of a sense of self-defense. They sure as hell wouldn't just throw their lot in with the Empire.

Hey if my governemt nuked New York becuase it was taken over by an invading army that was doing nothing to harm the civiliians, I'd be rethingking my alligences.

In fact, it's that the Rebels proved to be a military threat that put them on the map so to speak. Before Yavin the Rebels were little more than a bad joke at best and scum at worst. Afterwards, when people saw that the Empire could in fact, be fought, they gained a massive political advance. Hell, the Empire knew it couldn't crush every opposing system, especially if they had a defense fleet. And those fleets, the highest being Mon Calamari, would require less than a hundred ships to overcome.

Actually, the Emperor did not want to fully crush the rebellion. He'd lose his power if he did. He was settling for keeping them weak. Even at Battle for Endor, the only reason the Rebels can claim victory was destruction of the Death Star II and Death of the Emperor and Vader. This plunged the empire into civilwar.

The Federation has thousands of ships. If you believe that the Empire can take them simply by trying to frame them--you know, like they tried to paint the Mon Calamari into a bad people, then you're dreaming.

I said frame the Alpha quadrant. Easiest way would be to set up a colony in the ST universe, populate with a few thousand people of every member world, then leak to the Romulans that they are rearching some sort of Doomsday device to use against the Alpha quadrant. Let the Romulans do what they do best and suddenly instant villian for Sidious to exploit.

Empty the magazines? They're talking about torpedoes. And a full spread is about 3-6 torpedoes, hence O'Brien's response quoting at least double the amount.

Even on a ship where the explosives and torpedoes are kept is the the Magazines. The Defiant class carrye 90 some photon torpedoes and a few dozen quantums.

God you're such a desperate fuck. So isotons for warheads and bombs is equal to TNT explosives when you want it to be, but when I quote someone saying the same word for the same type of use, it's suddenly weight? And where is this space/time warp bullshit coming from? It made no mention of it in the episode. He simply said there would be an explosion.

You can't have it both ways. Either isotons for bombs/warheads refers to the yield in tons, it refers to them in a manner in yield but not equal to tons, or it refers to their weight.

Several times when Isoton is used ist is a a weight. Like the 90 isotons in the example above or the 4 million isotons tha the Garbage scow was carrying when Voyager met her in the great void.

I never claimed that. If you want to address the person who did, speak to them.

Points at Kittamaru

We don't know what isoton refers to. The problem is that it doesn't make sense if we're talking about weight or TNT ton yields because the level of destruction they need to perform with such weapons is physically impossible.

What I am saying is that it does refer to weight and weight only. When someon refers to it for the photon torpedo it is either tons of TNT like all other explosives, or someing close to TNT. Or at the very outside it my be that it can vaporize a set number of tons of a material. But we know it is not a measure of mega or gigatons as nothing in show supports it. .

Ah yes, appealing to visuals again. Because everyone knows that all visual sci-fi is 100% correct all the time. And I'm sure Star Trek shows in an age where even the most recent series was at the beginning of CGI use in TV would have 100% accurate special effects.

And of course, let's ignore all of that dialogue where the characters says 100% different things.

In any suspension of disbelief the Visuals ALWYS take precedence over dialog. Character can be wrong, environment never is. If Einstein told you that there was absolutely no way in the world a nuclear bomb could be built, then you saw the nuclear test, what would you believe?

Really? Kinda funny how you keep asserting that and yet you seem to just simply forget that you're trying to squirm out of my request for evidence. Really funny:

Scott: We see subkiloton yields throughout Star Trek. It's in every episode that we see them in.
Hellblade: Can I see them?
Scott: Oh I see, so when I ask for images for stuff like that you can blow me off, but when you ask it for me, I can't. I'm not showing anything.
Hellblade: Well if it's so common to see these things, why don't you post them and be done with it?
Scott: Because you need to prove your claims with images.
Hellblade: But I'm asking you to prove your claims. After all, they're so common why not do it and just end the debate?
Scott: You first.

---Five Minutes Later---

Scott: Are you questioning me? We see evidence proving me right. Why can't you just accept that?
Hellblade: How about because you won't post the fucking pictures?

A klingoon torpedo hiting the unshielded USS Enterprise

[Hellblade8]

Actually, I don;t need images since all you have provides was a quote.

There is nothing wrong with quotes so fuck off.

In DS9 continual bombarment with Quantum Torpedoes from Defiant was not cosidered a viable tactic for taking out a renegade Jem H'dar outpost.

Yeah, let's ignore the fact that said outpost had a base made of neutronium--which even if it doesn't act like it in the show, it's always been treated as an uber material that resists all trek level weapons.

no if the weapons were able to ignite an atmosphere, this would be unneccesary.

I'm no arguing that, so why are you claming I am?

The base in question did not have doors and with no atmosphere the Jem H'dar would have simply died.

Um, yes it did have doors. In fact, that's how the characters got inside to plant the charges. That's also ignoring the fact that they still would have had air because a) they can make it themselves (kinda hard not to be able to do so when you travel for weeks and months in spaceships) and b) if you had watched the episode, you'd know they had an Iconian Gateway that can go anywhere in the universe at any time and were looking to perfect it, so nuking the site would have done absolutely jack shit.

Again in DS9 the Die is Cast, continual weapons fire from 60+ warships of Romulan and Cardassian make flatened 30 percent of the surface of the planet, but did not ignite the atmosphere.

Get your facts straight. First, it was 40 ships, not sixty. Second, I'm not arguing that their weapons will ignite the atmosphere, so why do you keep saying that I am? And finally, that quote was more than likely an error given that it spits in the face of the computer estimation beforehand.

In Star Trek Generations the destruction of a Bird of Prey and the Warp core breach of Galaxy Class cruiser did not effect the planet they were orbiting in the slightest degree.

They weren't orbiting the planet. They were close, that much is true. Furthermore, we also have no idea as to what the planetary repercussions of the ship going nuclear. Of course, we saw the main drive pretty much get vaporized, so it was clear that it had some punch to it.

And really, I find it amusing you keep harping about the 12 billion gigawatts being less than your 200 gigatons, but now you're turning on that.

In Project: Pegasus, Riker commented it would take the Enterprises entire compliment of Torpedoes to blast apart the 10km diameter asteroid the Enterrise had entered and was trapped in.

God. Again, how about you fucking get your facts straight. First off, when Riker made the quote, they weren't trapped in the asteroid. Second that's not what he said. When they heard that the Romulans were approaching the asteroid they knew the Pegasus was hidden in, Riker suggested destroying it--and then claimed it would take most of their torpedoes. Third, when they were trapped in the asteroid, they didn't fire their way out because they lacked the power, but because the asteroid had become unstable via the Romulans already sealing them in and it could cause the entire cavern to collapse upon them. And having a shit load of rock constantly crushing your ship is going to be a big fucking problem.

In Rise, a Photon torped failed to vaporise and asterois as Ensign Kim expected. The Asteroid Shattered instead, inot pieces larger than human torsos. also of note the Asteroid was composed of a more brittle substance than the Iron-nickel he was expecting.

God you're dishonest. Yes, that's what happened, but you fail to make note of a few key critical points, such as Chakotay demanding why it wasn't vaporized when they thought it was an iron-nickel asteroid, suggesting that if it had been, the asteroid would have been vaporized.

Second, the reason why the torpedo failed was because the material was so brittle that it would shatter upon damage. This would mean that the materials would be thrown away from the heat and power of the nuke because its so weak that it's easily broken apart.

And the reason for that is because there was an alien race specifically doing that so it would make stopping the asteroids difficult. Ie, someone would detect what they thought was an iron-nickel asteroid, try to vaporize it, but because the weapon would be so overpowered, then it would shatter the pieces and send them hurling down towards the planet.

You would know this if you actually watched the episode and you weren't just trying to cherrypick stuff to make Trek look weak.

This is much more proof than you have given.

Scott, in two examples your details are off, in one case wildly off, and with two of them you ignore the context of the problems that they face.

It was an uninhabited planet. The klingons torched it so the Feds and Roms could get the next piece of a DNA puzzle.

What the fuck are you talking about? The Chase doesn't use a disruptor or a phaser or even a photon torpedo. The Klingons initated a plasma chain reaction that consumed the biosphere. If this were usual for disruptors or phasers, then the characters would have mentioned that. Presumably the Klingons had used some sort of planet-steralizing weapon.

I agree given enough time, but it is the matter of time. They definatly could do it in a day, or two. The population having time to leave the send distress calls. As opposed toa BDZ which one ISD with it's compliment of support craft can perform in hours and without the population escaping or getting out a distress. Of course that is trifle unfair to compare a ship of 50 people versus a ship of over 50,000 people.

Um...what? Why would it need a day or two? Do you understand what I am saying? I'm not saying having the surface of the planet stripped off (ie, that would take about 20 hours for the Defiant if it had enough high yield torpedoes with it). I'm talking about heavy damage to the surface crust.

Second, let's take a look at a BDZ operation, shall we?

Hutt's Gambit:

The worst problem, as far as Fel was concerned, was implementing order
Base Delta Zero on Nar Shaddaa.

Fel knew that last wasn't Greelanx's fault. The Sector Moff had issued
that order. But in the admiral's place, Fel would have at least tried
to get Sam Shild to modify that instruction. The Emperor's directive
had been to shut down the smuggling operations out of Nar Shaddaa and
other smuggler nests, especially the gunrunners. The directive hadn't
included anything about razing the entire moon. Fel had had
considerable combat experience, and he knew that sentients of most
species would fight like cornered Corellian vrelts when it came to
protecting their homes and families.

There were millions of sentients on Nar Shaddaa, many of whom were only
peripherally involved with the smuggling business. Elderly sentients,
children . . . Soontir Fel grimaced.

This would be his first Imperial-ordered massacre. He'd been lucky to
avoid such an order for this long, the way things were going.

Fel would carry out his orders, but he wasn't happy about them. He
knew images of the flaming buildings would haunt him, as he gave each
order to fire. And afterward . . . they'd have to send down shuttles
and ground troops to mop up, and he, Fel, being a conscientious
commander, would have to oversee that operation.

Visions of smoking rubble strewn with blackened corpses filled his
mind, and Fel took a deep breath.

Or how about the Star Wars Adventure Journal:

"Sir, what about bombardment? Is there a stage for that?"
"Blasting a planet from orbit is easy -- you don't need me to tell you how to do that. Limited orbital strikes would occur during the invasion stage. Just hope you are never given a Base Delta Zero order, lieutenant. Ah, yes, another question?"
"Sir, what's the Base Delta Zero order?"
"Base Delta Zero is the Imperial code order to destroy all population centres and resources, including industry, natural resources and cities. All other Imperial codes are subject to change, as you well know, but this code is always the same to prevent any confusion when the order is given. Base Delta Zero is rarely issued. ...."
-- "A World to Conquer"

All of these are from Darkstar's site and you can find more sources there. A Base Delta Zero has never been more than the destruction of population and natural resources. It is very much stupid to both firing at a planet that has already been nuked. Tearing off the surface of the planet is a waste of both time and money when you have no reason to.

Okay, first of all the ONLY time that live people see a starship strike on a planet in the books is Admiral Daala using the Knighthammer against the Yavin moon. Direct hits form these guns turned acre wide patches of ground into lava pits thousand of feet deep. Pretty good for a 1meter diameter bolt of energy. Of course those were the shots that hit ground, the ones that hit the Templewere useless as the stone was alchemical treated by the Sith. The temple would survive a supernova.

Provide the quote. And supernova? Really? That's the biggest load of bullshit I've ever heard of in my life. Please, post this.

First of all it's manuervering through a asteroid field at that speed as well as having enough weapons to vaporize all the rocks in your way. Plus while you are doing that you are basically painting a huge sign that says "I'm trying to sneak up on you." Fianlly you cannot hyperspace through a dense asteroid field.Too many large objects with hyperspace shadows.

...What? Anakin knew he was there the whole time. In fact, both sides knew that. That's how Anakin was able to lead him into the trap in the first place. Again, if you actually watched this stuff, maybe you'd know what the fuck you're talking about.

Another fact for you since space is a vaccuum there is nothing to conduct the energy from one asteroid to the other. Meaning you hit one little asteroid with 3200 gigatons, all you are doing is creating a wide spreading plasma cloud. So each asteroid would need to be target individually.

There weren't that many asteroids. It would have taken less time for the Venators to vaporize the asteroids in their way then it would have for the frigates to have reached them. Nor are the asteroids so far away that they wouldn't be damaged by even a nearby aseteroid exploding.

You are assuming that the force of the strike is physical and concussive. If it was a bomb i would agree, however it's energy. It's just going to rapidly melt a whole through the crust. Yes, there will be some work heat explosion but they're not going to be remotely as power as the tzar bomb in concussive blasts.

Yes, it is. Because energy is being released. A nuclear bomb isn't effective because it's dropped from really high up. It's effective because the amount of energy released in such a short measure of time is so powerful that it creates and explosion and displaces the air. In short, like a fat man jumping in a pool. That's why shockwaves can't exist in space. There's nothing to displace.

Furthermore, we already have evidence that suggests nuclear-like weapon affects:




The fact is, those are craters. The surrounding area around them has taken heavy damage. If what you claimed were true, then we would only seem massive sink holes filled with lava. However, we clearly see that the weapons do not act in the manner that you seem to think they do.

Actually, we have yet to see ruling on that. And even if we do, there is always variable power level, which you Trekkies have been claming all along. (though for the life of me the best we ever see of a photon isn't even as impressive as that 100 ton dynamite video)

God what a dishonest fuck you are. No, it is T canon. It has been stated by Chee and it's been stated by Lucast Arts. Either accept it or leave, because when you can't even accept the canon hiearchy for your EU, then you're just not worth talking to.

And second, variable yields are fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But when you have two enemies fighting each other, they're not going to dial their weapons down to pussy so you can have gigatons of weapon yields.

And seriously? We know from Enterprise that a 250 ton mine that exploded point blank at the unpowered hull of the NX class left a fairly decent size hole. So saying that their weapons are subkt is rather silly.

Small Problem, Lucas hired Saxton to write the technical manual AFTER seeing his work. Thus it is canon.

Really? How about you supply the fucking exact quote where Lucas said that. Or someone with credibility confirms it. Nor in fact, does it change the fact of the debate given that it still contradicts everything in canon.

Oh and I fully understand what a BDZ requires and I has been pulled on heavily guarded planets with as little as one ISD. Though the usual is 3.

You mean the ones that only slagged one single base (and guess what? someone survived) and had TIE fighters performing mop up operations?

BTW for a picture the TK event that destroyed the dinosuars is assumed to be a multi hundred terraton level impact. making even the 200gigaton turbolasers look like a BB gun.

You stupid fuck. Of course it doesn't match with that event. But that was a single asteroid that killed off the most dominant life on earth in one single swoop. That still doesn't change the fact that multiple bolts of gigatons of energy are still going to wreck havoc on the planet. And as I've already posted, they're going to create craters. And thus, there is going to be a fucking mushroom cloud.

Okay, read the material. Palpatine coddled the Core Worlds. Even when he destroyed Alderaan he had to paint it as he was destroying a entire government corrupted into stockpiling and manufacturing weapons that he claimed were used to kill innoccent Citizens.

No, you provide the fucking quotes. I'm not doing your work for you.

Sullustans produced Capital Ships not many, but some. Corellion Engineering Coproration produced Capital ships for anyone who could afford them. Kuat Drive yards man facility was in the new republic and was taken over by the new republic. I know much more about shipyards than you might think.

What you just said is utter nonesense. We're talking about the fucking Rebel Alliance. The one with two ship yards, both linked to planets and at least one well known by the Empire. Yet the Empire, despite having millions of ships, could not muster the forces to attack them.

Actually Mon Calamari was one of the most heavily defended worlds in the Galaxy. Right up there with Coruscant, Corellia, and Bast. Infiltration was hard as the Emperor made the mistake of ppressing the Mon Cals and the Quarren. Direct assualt was out as the Mon Cal had some of the best Shields in the Galaxy and back up for each of the main generators. It would have taken the Death Star to do anything to that planet. By that time Palpatine, blinded by arrogance, was going to use himself as bait in a trap to cripple the alliance. Notice the word cripple. he needed the Rebellion in order to maintian the fear he needed to stay in power. It was a calculated risk, but one he felt comfortable in.

Bullshit.

They had enough to take on a battle group. That's 19 ships, most frigates and cruisers, prusuit ships, and scouts with on ISD. If the Empire can summon up thousands of ships at a moment's notice, where the fuck where they when they were forced to pussyfoot around Calamari space?

Oh that's right, they were busy fighting rebels and holding their own gloated empire together.

Hey if my governemt nuked New York becuase it was taken over by an invading army that was doing nothing to harm the civiliians, I'd be rethingking my alligences.

So what is your argument that they would trust Palpatine again?

Actually, the Emperor did not want to fully crush the rebellion. He'd lose his power if he did. He was settling for keeping them weak. Even at Battle for Endor, the only reason the Rebels can claim victory was destruction of the Death Star II and Death of the Emperor and Vader. This plunged the empire into civilwar.

No, Palpatine wanted to use the Rebellion the same way he had used the CIS. He wanted a puppet enemy for the civilians to focus their attention on, rather than the Empire itself. He started realizing his mistake when it blew up in his face as his puppet leader turned on him. Since then he had been trying to destroy the Rebellion. That's why he set up the whole thing at Endor. If he had wanted to keep them weak, then why kill all their leaders and effectively destroy the movement?

I said frame the Alpha quadrant.

Again, you yourself say that you wouldn't trust Palpatine after he nuked his own planet.

Easiest way would be to set up a colony in the ST universe, populate with a few thousand people of every member world, then leak to the Romulans that they are rearching some sort of Doomsday device to use against the Alpha quadrant. Let the Romulans do what they do best and suddenly instant villian for Sidious to exploit.

God you're so pathetic. So you think that the Rebels, who are likely going to notice a massive colonization effort like that, are going to suddenly think it's a concidence that an enemy of the Empire shows up and nukes a planet? This is in fact, when the Empire doesn't encourage colonization because it reduces their grasp on their holdings and spreads out their already thin fleet?

And really, what kind of moron would do such a thing? Why would anyone set up a colony in space known to be contested or in hostile space? The very act in itself is suspicious. Nor has it ever been shown that Palpatine would be that stupid.

Even on a ship where the explosives and torpedoes are kept is the the Magazines. The Defiant class carrye 90 some photon torpedoes and a few dozen quantums.

Guess what? We're not even talking about the Defiant. We're talking about a Klingon Bird of Prey. Nor is a spread the full outload of a starship, just like a volley isn't the full outload of a warship. Damar's quote means one thing; that they were going to lob 3-6 torpedoes at a planet base and kill everyone within hundreds of kilomteres (or rather, take care of them). That requires 1,025 megatons.

Several times when Isoton is used ist is a a weight. Like the 90 isotons in the example above or the 4 million isotons tha the Garbage scow was carrying when Voyager met her in the great void.

So let me get this straight, you say it's okay to use it as weight when it suits you and then mean yield when it also suits you, despite the fact that this is clearly you just shifting positions so you can get the lowest, most stupid yield possible?

Get a fucking life. Because when you've reached this measure of bullshit, it's just fucking embaressing.

Points at Kittamaru

Then why do you continue to accuse me of the same argument above?

What I am saying is that it does refer to weight and weight only. When someon refers to it for the photon torpedo it is either tons of TNT like all other explosives, or someing close to TNT. Or at the very outside it my be that it can vaporize a set number of tons of a material. But we know it is not a measure of mega or gigatons as nothing in show supports it. .

Bull. Shit.

Guess what the first nuclear bomb dropped on Japan was? A bomb. Guess what O'brien was using? A fucking bomb. They're both measured in the same manner. There's no '12 kiloton bomb' of actual weight you stupid shit. It's 12 kiloton warhead. Same applies here. That was a 90 isoton bomb. My God how embaressingly dumb can you get? In fact, the measurements add up perfectly.

10 Isoton Jem'Hadar warhead = used to startle officers in a downed ship
25 Isoton Photon Torpedo = destroys a city
54 Isoton Gravemetric Torpedo = destroys (devistates) small planet
80 Isoton Uprated Gravemetric Torpedo = higher yield
90 Isoton Enriched Ultritium Bomb = 800 KM Fireball
200 Isoton Class VI Photon Torpedo = Likely a mistake given how it clashes with the rest of the series (and was towards the first half of it) or a really powerful bomb.

Established Fact: A Klingon Bird of Prey--a heavy assault scout ship-- had torpedoes with 1.025 gigaton warheads--at least. More likely they could reach all the way up into the 80 Isoton Enriched Ultritium bomb.

By this indication, if we assume the 25 isotons torpedo to be equal to the Klingon BoP torpedo, we get 41 megatons per isoton. This would mean:

10 Isoton Jem'Hadar warhead = 410 megatons
25 Isoton Photon Torpedo = 1025 megatons
54 Isoton Gravemetric Torpedo = 2,214 megatons
80 Isoton Uprated Gravemetric Torpedo = 3,280 megatons
90 Isoton Enriched Ultritium Bomb = 3,690 megatons

It would also make the Dreadnought Cardassian weapon a 1,560.97 Isoton bomb, which is over sixty-two times stronger than the standard warhead and much higher than even the 80 isoton bomb.

In any suspension of disbelief the Visuals ALWYS take precedence over dialog.

No it doesn't. Who said that? Why should I accept that?

Character can be wrong, environment never is.

Is that why ships randomly reconfigure their sizes? Or we see physically impossible events taking place that rape science in the ass?

If Einstein told you that there was absolutely no way in the world a nuclear bomb could be built, then you saw the nuclear test, what would you believe?

False Dillema Falacy. We're not talking about an imaginative world here--which both franchises are. And you know what? Fuck you and suspension of disbelief. This is a debate. I'm not going to play by these bullshit rules that you seem to think overrides common logic and the clear intent of the authors.

A klingoon torpedo hiting the unshielded USS Enterprise

So the fuck what? I'm putting my foot down on this VFX = Eternal Truth bullshit. This is a TV Show and I'm tired of treating it like WWII documentries. From now on, I'm taking story and intent over this bullshit. For both and all franchises. I've officially had it to here with this bullcrap.

And second, the ship still had the SIF.

[Kittamaru]

Hey, sometime you exaggerate to your crew. Sometimes people smack talk. Unless we got technical data or visuals to back it up, it's just smack talk, nothing more.

Then I guess the force is as impotent as a limp schize as we never see it, in the movies, do anything more impressive than lifting a few objects and mind-fucking weak-minded clones. Oh yeah, and choking a person. Whoop de doo, I can do that without the force. It's call mustard gas, tractor beams, and crotical stimulators.

Small problem. Since for Star Wars EU is canon we know the Force can do a a great many more things.

BTW things the force can do as seen in the movies:
*Telekinesesi with no real weaight limit.
*Telepathy with no distance limit
*Clairvoyance with no distance limit
*Hypnosis (BTW Storm Trooper circa A New Hope and beyond are not clones)
*Audio Illusion
*Precognition
*Increase physical speed and other abilities
*Improve skills

Well, sorry, but by your logic, since we never see it, it doesn't happen. For all we know, the books are just recounts of the battle as told by the victor (which makes sense), and as such the Victors are exaggerating.

See, two can play this game TW

[Kittamaru]

TW, you made a huge continuity error there:

PHASERS were stated as being able to turn the atmosphere of a planet into plasma (essentially, igniting it). The reason for this is unknown, however, and could be because of some effect of the beam itself.

It's perfectly reasonable to assume Torpedo weapons, Disruptors (which operate on a completely different principle) and even Pulse Phasers simply don't work in the same method.

[TW Scott]

Hey, sometime you exaggerate to your crew. Sometimes people smack talk. Unless we got technical data or visuals to back it up, it's just smack talk, nothing more.

Then I guess the force is as impotent as a limp schize as we never see it, in the movies, do anything more impressive than lifting a few objects and mind-fucking weak-minded clones. Oh yeah, and choking a person. Whoop de doo, I can do that without the force. It's call mustard gas, tractor beams, and crotical stimulators.

Also I would point out some passive forse use in ROTS kept Obi-Wan and Anakin from cooking and suffocating while fighting just feet above a lava river.


Small problem. Since for Star Wars EU is canon we know the Force can do a a great many more things.

BTW things the force can do as seen in the movies:
*Telekinesesi with no real weight limit.
*Telepathy with no distance limit
*Clairvoyance with no distance limit
*Hypnosis (BTW Storm Trooper circa A New Hope and beyond are not clones)
*Audio Illusion
*Precognition
*Increase physical speed and other abilities
*Improve skills
*Absorb and Nuetralize harmful energies.


Well, sorry, but by your logic, since we never see it, it doesn't happen. For all we know, the books are just recounts of the battle as told by the victor (which makes sense), and as such the Victors are exaggerating.

See, two can play this game TW

Small Problem with your argement, it doesn't quite work that way when the book contains DESCRIPTIVE portions and are written in THIRD PERSON. The descriptive portions are the 'visuals' of a novel. A book written in third person is not a recount by the winner. Check you your suspension of disbelief rules.

[TW Scott]

PHASERS were stated as being able to turn the atmosphere of a planet into plasma (essentially, igniting it). The reason for this is unknown, however, and could be because of some effect of the beam itself.

It's perfectly reasonable to assume Torpedo weapons, Disruptors (which operate on a completely different principle) and even Pulse Phasers simply don't work in the same method.

Actually any weapon with a masive amount of energy that can be converted to heat could turn any gas to plasma. What I seriously doubt is a vessel that's main reactor produces 12 billion gigawatts has the energy output to turn an entire atmosphere of an Earth like planet to plasma in seconds.

See I am not doubting turning a small amount of atmosphere to plasma, hell laser fire can handle that. I am doubting the entire atmosphere in one go.

[TW Scott]

Actually, I don;t need images since all you have provides was a quote. ”

There is nothing wrong with quotes so fuck off.

Your quotes had NO visuals or technical data to back them up.

“ In DS9 continual bombarment with Quantum Torpedoes from Defiant was not cosidered a viable tactic for taking out a renegade Jem H'dar outpost. ”

Yeah, let's ignore the fact that said outpost had a base made of neutronium--which even if it doesn't act like it in the show, it's always been treated as an uber material that resists all trek level weapons.

True, however the base was on a planet and when shown had completely open dorways with no doors. A simple WWI firestorm device would been all that was need to clear the place out.

“ no if the weapons were able to ignite an atmosphere, this would be unneccesary. ”

I'm no arguing that, so why are you claming I am?

Your side is arguing that way, keep up.


“ The base in question did not have doors and with no atmosphere the Jem H'dar would have simply died. ”

Um, yes it did have doors. In fact, that's how the characters got inside to plant the charges. That's also ignoring the fact that they still would have had air because a) they can make it themselves (kinda hard not to be able to do so when you travel for weeks and months in spaceships) and b) if you had watched the episode, you'd know they had an Iconian Gateway that can go anywhere in the universe at any time and were looking to perfect it, so nuking the site would have done absolutely jack shit.

It had DOORWAYS. COmpletely open door ways without even the hint of a door.

“ Again in DS9 the Die is Cast, continual weapons fire from 60+ warships of Romulan and Cardassian make flattened 30 percent of the surface of the planet, but did not ignite the atmosphere. ”

Get your facts straight. First, it was 40 ships, not sixty. Second, I'm not arguing that their weapons will ignite the atmosphere, so why do you keep saying that I am? And finally, that quote was more than likely an error given that it spits in the face of the computer estimation beforehand.


It was 40 on a two thirds view of the plent, don't you think the Romulans would have made sure the planet was surrounded.

“ In Star Trek Generations the destruction of a Bird of Prey and the Warp core breach of Galaxy Class cruiser did not effect the planet they were orbiting in the slightest degree. ”

They weren't orbiting the planet. They were close, that much is true. Furthermore, we also have no idea as to what the planetary repercussions of the ship going nuclear. Of course, we saw the main drive pretty much get vaporized, so it was clear that it had some punch to it.

And really, I find it amusing you keep harping about the 12 billion gigawatts being less than your 200 gigatons, but now you're turning on that.

Well, I do know when the Yamato exploded from core breach in TNG the concussive blast rattled the Enterprise from several light seconds away. One would think that being only 10,000 miles above a target might make it a bit more intense.


“ In Project: Pegasus, Riker commented it would take the Enterprises entire compliment of Torpedoes to blast apart the 10km diameter asteroid the Enterrise had entered and was trapped in. ”

God. Again, how about you fucking get your facts straight. First off, when Riker made the quote, they weren't trapped in the asteroid. Second that's not what he said. When they heard that the Romulans were approaching the asteroid they knew the Pegasus was hidden in, Riker suggested destroying it--and then claimed it would take most of their torpedoes. Third, when they were trapped in the asteroid, they didn't fire their way out because they lacked the power, but because the asteroid had become unstable via the Romulans already sealing them in and it could cause the entire cavern to collapse upon them. And having a shit load of rock constantly crushing your ship is going to be a big fucking problem.

Actually that might be what your transcript said, but the episode in question, and the script support my wording.

“ In Rise, a Photon torped failed to vaporise and asteroid as Ensign Kim expected. The Asteroid Shattered instead, into pieces larger than human torsos. also of note the Asteroid was composed of a more brittle substance than the Iron-nickel he was expecting. ”

God you're dishonest. Yes, that's what happened, but you fail to make note of a few key critical points, such as Chakotay demanding why it wasn't vaporized when they thought it was an iron-nickel asteroid, suggesting that if it had been, the asteroid would have been vaporized.

And you fail to realize that Kim said it should have broken up into pieces no bigger than 10 centimeters. Vaporized means it would be gaseous, but that is only the minor error here. If the Asteroid had been more brittle than expected the pieces should have been smaller. Also the substance they found the asteroid to be had a lower melting point than Iron as well as a lower specific heat and similiar conductive properties. Meaning the samel amunt of Energy should have vaporized MORE of the actual asteroid, scientifically speaking. So Harry Kim and Commander CHakotay were in error.

Second, the reason why the torpedo failed was because the material was so brittle that it would shatter upon damage. This would mean that the materials would be thrown away from the heat and power of the nuke because its so weak that it's easily broken apart.

You really, don;t know how this really works do you? Once the Torpedo hit and exploded the Asteroid would have accepted all that energy and while it would have shattered, the shockwaves would have travelled through the material faster than the speed of sound.

And the reason for that is because there was an alien race specifically doing that so it would make stopping the asteroids difficult. Ie, someone would detect what they thought was an iron-nickel asteroid, try to vaporize it, but because the weapon would be so overpowered, then it would shatter the pieces and send them hurling down towards the planet.

Se above for how this really works.

You would know this if you actually watched the episode and you weren't just trying to cherrypick stuff to make Trek look weak.

That episode is one of my favorites, I just understood it better is

“ This is much more proof than you have given. ”

Scott, in two examples your details are off, in one case wildly off, and with two of them you ignore the context of the problems that they face.

No, in two examples I corrected your mistakes.

“ It was an uninhabited planet. The klingons torched it so the Feds and Roms could get the next piece of a DNA puzzle. ”

What the fuck are you talking about? The Chase doesn't use a disruptor or a phaser or even a photon torpedo. The Klingons initated a plasma chain reaction that consumed the biosphere. If this were usual for disruptors or phasers, then the characters would have mentioned that. Presumably the Klingons had used some sort of planet-steralizing weapon.

Yes they did, but they did it with a standard ship weapon. Nothing special. It was noted the planet had an unstble atmosphere.


“ I agree given enough time, but it is the matter of time. They definatly could do it in a day, or two. The population having time to leave the send distress calls. As opposed toa BDZ which one ISD with it's compliment of support craft can perform in hours and without the population escaping or getting out a distress. Of course that is trifle unfair to compare a ship of 50 people versus a ship of over 50,000 people. ”

Um...what? Why would it need a day or two? Do you understand what I am saying? I'm not saying having the surface of the planet stripped off (ie, that would take about 20 hours for the Defiant if it had enough high yield torpedoes with it). I'm talking about heavy damage to the surface crust.

Second, let's take a look at a BDZ operation, shall we?

Hutt's Gambit:

“ The worst problem, as far as Fel was concerned, was implementing order
Base Delta Zero on Nar Shaddaa.

Fel knew that last wasn't Greelanx's fault. The Sector Moff had issued
that order. But in the admiral's place, Fel would have at least tried
to get Sam Shild to modify that instruction. The Emperor's directive
had been to shut down the smuggling operations out of Nar Shaddaa and
other smuggler nests, especially the gunrunners. The directive hadn't
included anything about razing the entire moon. Fel had had
considerable combat experience, and he knew that sentients of most
species would fight like cornered Corellian vrelts when it came to
protecting their homes and families.

There were millions of sentients on Nar Shaddaa, many of whom were only
peripherally involved with the smuggling business. Elderly sentients,
children . . . Soontir Fel grimaced.

This would be his first Imperial-ordered massacre. He'd been lucky to
avoid such an order for this long, the way things were going.

Fel would carry out his orders, but he wasn't happy about them. He
knew images of the flaming buildings would haunt him, as he gave each
order to fire. And afterward . . . they'd have to send down shuttles
and ground troops to mop up, and he, Fel, being a conscientious
commander, would have to oversee that operation.

Visions of smoking rubble strewn with blackened corpses filled his
mind, and Fel took a deep breath. ”

Or how about the Star Wars Adventure Journal:


“ "Sir, what about bombardment? Is there a stage for that?"
"Blasting a planet from orbit is easy -- you don't need me to tell you how to do that. Limited orbital strikes would occur during the invasion stage. Just hope you are never given a Base Delta Zero order, lieutenant. Ah, yes, another question?"
"Sir, what's the Base Delta Zero order?"
"Base Delta Zero is the Imperial code order to destroy all population centres and resources, including industry, natural resources and cities. All other Imperial codes are subject to change, as you well know, but this code is always the same to prevent any confusion when the order is given. Base Delta Zero is rarely issued. ...."
-- "A World to Conquer" ”

All of these are from Darkstar's site and you can find more sources there. A Base Delta Zero has never been more than the destruction of population and natural resources. It is very much stupid to both firing at a planet that has already been nuked. Tearing off the surface of the planet is a waste of both time and money when you have no reason to.

Yeah, I recognize Darkstar's cherry-picking. A man who once got into an argument with the writer of a ST episode over that the episode

However to answer your argument. I'll give you a partial list of resources:
Lumber
Water
Agriculture land
Residential Land
Coal
Uranium
Minerals
Oxygen Rich atmosphere.

So obviously a BDZ is much more than imere razing.

“ Okay, first of all the ONLY time that live people see a starship strike on a planet in the books is Admiral Daala using the Knighthammer against the Yavin moon. Direct hits form these guns turned acre wide patches of ground into lava pits thousand of feet deep. Pretty good for a 1meter diameter bolt of energy. Of course those were the shots that hit ground, the ones that hit the Temple were useless as the stone was alchemically treated by the Sith. The temple would survive a supernova. ”

Provide the quote. And supernova? Really? That's the biggest load of bullshit I've ever heard of in my life. Please, post this.

It's from the ANH novelization.



“ Another fact for you since space is a vaccuum there is nothing to conduct the energy from one asteroid to the other. Meaning you hit one little asteroid with 3200 gigatons, all you are doing is creating a wide spreading plasma cloud. So each asteroid would need to be target individually. ”

There weren't that many asteroids. It would have taken less time for the Venators to vaporize the asteroids in their way then it would have for the frigates to have reached them. Nor are the asteroids so far away that they wouldn't be damaged by even a nearby aseteroid exploding.

Not that many? Was it half as dense as the Asteroid Field in ESB? If so then the Venerator was horribly undergunned. An ISD carries 60 Turbolasers versus the the Venerators sixteen. See the problem yet? You're compafic


“ You are assuming that the force of the strike is physical and concussive. If it was a bomb i would agree, however it's energy. It's just going to rapidly melt a whole through the crust. Yes, there will be some work heat explosion but they're not going to be remotely as power as the tzar bomb in concussive blasts. ”

Yes, it is. Because energy is being released. A nuclear bomb isn't effective because it's dropped from really high up. It's effective because the amount of energy released in such a short measure of time is so powerful that it creates and explosion and displaces the air. In short, like a fat man jumping in a pool. That's why shockwaves can't exist in space. There's nothing to displace.

Furthermore, we already have evidence that suggests nuclear-like weapon affects:




The fact is, those are craters. The surrounding area around them has taken heavy damage. If what you claimed were true, then we would only seem massive sink holes filled with lava. However, we clearly see that the weapons do not act in the manner that you seem to think they do.

Well actually cuasing a lavapit to appear in an open field would leave be craters as they cooled. Plys in mop up operation concussion bomb and missles would have been used.

As for why a nuclear weapon is so effect is becuase it does realease all that energy omnidirectionally (meaning every direction at once) a Turbolaser is coing to put 99.999999% of it power forward becuase of Inertia. the other part will be conduction/convection. Watch a laser cutting metal and you'll see what i mean.



“ Actually, we have yet to see ruling on that. And even if we do, there is always variable power level, which you Trekkies have been claming all along. (though for the life of me the best we ever see of a photon isn't even as impressive as that 100 ton dynamite video) ”

God what a dishonest fuck you are. No, it is T canon. It has been stated by Chee and it's been stated by Lucast Arts. Either accept it or leave, because when you can't even accept the canon hiearchy for your EU, then you're just not worth talking to.

And second, variable yields are fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But when you have two enemies fighting each other, they're not going to dial their weapons down to pussy so you can have gigatons of weapon yields.

And seriously? We know from Enterprise that a 250 ton mine that exploded point blank at the unpowered hull of the NX class left a fairly decent size hole. So saying that their weapons are subkt is rather silly.

Lucasarts is not Lucasfilm nor is it Lucas himself. Lucasfilm determines canon. However I will not that while the movie maybe canon. The two trilogy's are supeiror as is any observational works based off of them. Which unfortunately includes a lot of surces that would piss you off.

Actually there are many reasons to dial down the weapons including the desire to capture your enemies vessel and or know that on said vessel a rescue attemtp is being made.

As for Enterprise episode you are talking about the SIF would be up as they were moving and the mine caused a slightly bigger whole in that Enterprise than the photon did to the 1701 I gve picture of.....


“ Small Problem, Lucas hired Saxton to write the technical manual AFTER seeing his work. Thus it is canon. ”

Really? How about you supply the fucking exact quote where Lucas said that. Or someone with credibility confirms it. Nor in fact, does it change the fact of the debate given that it still contradicts everything in canon.

Saxton wrote the book, Lucas hired him at Lucasfilm's reccomendation. Just the way things go. You got a problem with it, it's your problem and thus not germaine to this debate.


“ Oh and I fully understand what a BDZ requires and I has been pulled on heavily guarded planets with as little as one ISD. Though the usual is 3. ”

You mean the ones that only slagged one single base (and guess what? someone survived) and had TIE fighters performing mop up operations?

Actually Why would you have TIE mop up operations? the BDZ is designed to literally make a dead world. A world where it would be harder to terraform it than a normal barren planet.

“ BTW for a picture the TK event that destroyed the dinosuars is assumed to be a multi hundred terraton level impact. making even the 200gigaton turbolasers look like a BB gun. ”

You stupid fuck. Of course it doesn't match with that event. But that was a single asteroid that killed off the most dominant life on earth in one single swoop. That still doesn't change the fact that multiple bolts of gigatons of energy are still going to wreck havoc on the planet. And as I've already posted, they're going to create craters. And thus, there is going to be a fucking mushroom cloud.

Actually, no mult shots would not do this unless spaced out correctly in an effort to do so. The TK evvent killed off the dinosuars by kicking up a huge amount of duct debris during impact. This in turn cuased a rapid nuclear winter effect. Seeing as how the 200 gigton equivalnet turbolasers would kick up no dust and only creat short term lava holes (thus producing rish topsoil), it would take a coordinated and well orchaestrated attack to produce a dead world or BDZ.


“ Okay, read the material. Palpatine coddled the Core Worlds. Even when he destroyed Alderaan he had to paint it as he was destroying a entire government corrupted into stockpiling and manufacturing weapons that he claimed were used to kill innoccent Citizens. ”

No, you provide the fucking quotes. I'm not doing your work for you.

Well if you refuse to read the material than you can't possibly be making any arguments about it can you? I watch Star Trek, loved everything short of Voyager and Enterprise. Loved the concept of Voyager, but the execution was piss poor.

“ Sullustans produced Capital Ships not many, but some. Corellion Engineering Coproration produced Capital ships for anyone who could afford them. Kuat Drive yards man facility was in the new republic and was taken over by the new republic. I know much more about shipyards than you might think. ”

What you just said is utter nonesense. We're talking about the fucking Rebel Alliance. The one with two ship yards, both linked to planets and at least one well known by the Empire. Yet the Empire, despite having millions of ships, could not muster the forces to attack them.

Attacking Sullust or Mon Cal would have got them nothing. Destroying the Shipyards would only slow down production. Both plantets were HEAVILY defended. Sullustan are subterranan so even if you got past the shields bombardment is useless and invasion is practically suicide. Mon Cal is a huge ocean planet so similair problems. Plus Palaptine was still working damage control from Alderaan. His image could survive one planetary destruction, but not three.


“ Actually Mon Calamari was one of the most heavily defended worlds in the Galaxy. Right up there with Coruscant, Corellia, and Bast. Infiltration was hard as the Emperor made the mistake of ppressing the Mon Cals and the Quarren. Direct assualt was out as the Mon Cal had some of the best Shields in the Galaxy and back up for each of the main generators. It would have taken the Death Star to do anything to that planet. By that time Palpatine, blinded by arrogance, was going to use himself as bait in a trap to cripple the alliance. Notice the word cripple. he needed the Rebellion in order to maintian the fear he needed to stay in power. It was a calculated risk, but one he felt comfortable in. ”

Bullshit.

They had enough to take on a battle group. That's 19 ships, most frigates and cruisers, pursuit ships, and scouts with on ISD. If the Empire can summon up thousands of ships at a moment's notice, where the fuck where they when they were forced to pussyfoot around Calamari space?

Oh that's right, they were busy fighting rebels and holding their own gloated empire together.

Mon Cal is a core world, it's one of those place Palpatine had to tippy toe around. Plus Mon Cal made Coruscant look practically undefended when it came to planetary defenses. At the of ESB and ROTJ the only tool that could have taken Mon Cal was a Death Star. Anything short of that was just a sitting target for surface batteries.



“ Hey if my governemt nuked New York becuase it was taken over by an invading army that was doing nothing to harm the civiliians, I'd be rethinking my alligences. ”

So what is your argument that they would trust Palpatine again?

Yeah, but that is individuals. Remeber group think is hard to break. I mean what if you were on a planet that was envious of Alderaan? Or what if you believed the propaganda? Or more scary, what if you didn;t but lived in a society that did? Hard to rebel if your ass is in the slammer becuase your little sis turned you in.

“ Actually, the Emperor did not want to fully crush the rebellion. He'd lose his power if he did. He was settling for keeping them weak. Even at Battle for Endor, the only reason the Rebels can claim victory was destruction of the Death Star II and Death of the Emperor and Vader. This plunged the empire into civilwar. ”

No, Palpatine wanted to use the Rebellion the same way he had used the CIS. He wanted a puppet enemy for the civilians to focus their attention on, rather than the Empire itself. He started realizing his mistake when it blew up in his face as his puppet leader turned on him. Since then he had been trying to destroy the Rebellion. That's why he set up the whole thing at Endor. If he had wanted to keep them weak, then why kill all their leaders and effectively destroy the movement?

Actually he was just trying to get rid of the competent leaders. If he kept them ineffectual he could still milk them for all they were worth.


“ I said frame the Alpha quadrant. ”

Again, you yourself say that you wouldn't trust Palpatine after he nuked his own planet.

I wouldn;t, but while two heads are better than one stupidity multiplies.

“ Easiest way would be to set up a colony in the ST universe, populate with a few thousand people of every member world, then leak to the Romulans that they are rearching some sort of Doomsday device to use against the Alpha quadrant. Let the Romulans do what they do best and suddenly instant villian for Sidious to exploit. ”

God you're so pathetic. So you think that the Rebels, who are likely going to notice a massive colonization effort like that, are going to suddenly think it's a concidence that an enemy of the Empire shows up and nukes a planet? This is in fact, when the Empire doesn't encourage colonization because it reduces their grasp on their holdings and spreads out their already thin fleet?

And really, what kind of moron would do such a thing? Why would anyone set up a colony in space known to be contested or in hostile space? The very act in itself is suspicious. Nor has it ever been shown that Palpatine would be that stupid.

Are you kidding me? The Rebels had no clue that the second DS was being built until Emperor Palapatine ordered it leaked. A base that 1900km in diameter and required a million people build let alone man was done secretly for six months with nobody the wiser.

And why hide the colonization. Just start it up, recruit people from every planet by offering them land and reduced taxes. Guard it with a few Corellian Gunships backed by a couple dozen correlian corvettes. Ample protection versus the run of the mill pirate. Once it's starting to become a success and a nice place arrange for the Romulans, Cardassains, and Klingon's to learn that is it is secretly a launch base for operations in the Alpha Quadrant. (It's not....yet) Watch the native do their worst. Suddenly whole Empire is furious at the 'Massacre" including many rebels. Any Rebels that dare speak against the war in the alpha quadrant would lose support of the people. Hell, the Empire would close ranks as fast as Maerica did post Peral harbor or 9/11. Palapatine would have at least five or six years free of any serious protest or rebellion.





“ Even on a ship where the explosives and torpedoes are kept is the the Magazines. The Defiant class carrye 90 some photon torpedoes and a few dozen quantums. ”

Guess what? We're not even talking about the Defiant. We're talking about a Klingon Bird of Prey. Nor is a spread the full outload of a starship, just like a volley isn't the full outload of a warship. Damar's quote means one thing; that they were going to lob 3-6 torpedoes at a planet base and kill everyone within hundreds of kilomteres (or rather, take care of them). That requires 1,025 megatons.

Not really. Kill every one in hundreds of kilometers you just sead the torpedoes around. Much more efficent. Sometimes you don;t need a bigger hammer, just a smarter fire control officer.


“ Several times when Isoton is used ist is a a weight. Like the 90 isotons in the example above or the 4 million isotons tha the Garbage scow was carrying when Voyager met her in the great void. ”

So let me get this straight, you say it's okay to use it as weight when it suits you and then mean yield when it also suits you, despite the fact that this is clearly you just shifting positions so you can get the lowest, most stupid yield possible?

Get a fucking life. Because when you've reached this measure of bullshit, it's just fucking embaressing.

Actually since ton, kiloton, and megaton are all forms of weight and expressions of firepower then yes I feel confident in this. Sorry, but i am just going based off english language, military shorthand, and reality.



“ Points at Kittamaru ”

Then why do you continue to accuse me of the same argument above?

You're on the same side supporting it. CLaiming that character dialogue trumps visualization.

“ What I am saying is that it does refer to weight and weight only. When someone refers to it for the photon torpedo it is either tons of TNT like all other explosives, or someing close to TNT. Or at the very outside it my be that it can vaporize a set number of tons of a material. But we know it is not a measure of mega or gigatons as nothing in show supports it. . ”

Bull. Shit.

Guess what the first nuclear bomb dropped on Japan was? A bomb. Guess what O'brien was using? A fucking bomb. They're both measured in the same manner. There's no '12 kiloton bomb' of actual weight you stupid shit. It's 12 kiloton warhead. Same applies here. That was a 90 isoton bomb. My God how embaressingly dumb can you get? In fact, the measurements add up perfectly.

10 Isoton Jem'Hadar warhead = used to startle officers in a downed ship
25 Isoton Photon Torpedo = destroys a city
54 Isoton Gravemetric Torpedo = destroys (devistates) small planet
80 Isoton Uprated Gravemetric Torpedo = higher yield
90 Isoton Enriched Ultritium Bomb = 800 KM Fireball
200 Isoton Class VI Photon Torpedo = Likely a mistake given how it clashes with the rest of the series (and was towards the first half of it) or a really powerful bomb.

Established Fact: A Klingon Bird of Prey--a heavy assault scout ship-- had torpedoes with 1.025 gigaton warheads--at least. More likely they could reach all the way up into the 80 Isoton Enriched Ultritium bomb.

By this indication, if we assume the 25 isotons torpedo to be equal to the Klingon BoP torpedo, we get 41 megatons per isoton. This would mean:

10 Isoton Jem'Hadar warhead = 410 megatons
25 Isoton Photon Torpedo = 1025 megatons
54 Isoton Gravemetric Torpedo = 2,214 megatons
80 Isoton Uprated Gravemetric Torpedo = 3,280 megatons
90 Isoton Enriched Ultritium Bomb = 3,690 megatons

It would also make the Dreadnought Cardassian weapon a 1,560.97 Isoton bomb, which is over sixty-two times stronger than the standard warhead and much higher than even the 80 isoton bomb.

Fine ignore all evidence to the contrary. You're just proving yourself incapble of understanding.

SEVEN: The vessel is ejecting massive quantities of contaminated antimatter.
CHAKOTAY: Their cargo holds are loaded with it. Over ninety million isotons.
JANEWAY: Hail them.

Certainly seems to me like they are talking a weight. Your quotation of Chief O'Brien's device seems to be talking of a weight. How hard is to understand that isoton must be a measure of weight that is also used in a firepower shorthand? Doesn;t seem all that hard to understand to me.

As for your inflated weapons output, I am sorry, but you just don;t see those effects at all in ST.

In fact check here and you'll be a bit susprised on what bombs can actually do.










“ In any suspension of disbelief the Visuals ALWYS take precedence over dialog. ”

No it doesn't. Who said that? Why should I accept that?

Becuase a Person can be wrong. If Riker said a Photon Torpedo would be all it took to take out a sattelite and whoops they have to fire a second was it bad special effects or just the character making an error?


“ Character can be wrong, environment never is. ”

Is that why ships randomly reconfigure their sizes? Or we see physically impossible events taking place that rape science in the ass?

Well, since that happens only in ST and only via character quotes....yeah

“ If Einstein told you that there was absolutely no way in the world a nuclear bomb could be built, then you saw the nuclear test, what would you believe? ”

False Dillema Falacy. We're not talking about an imaginative world here--which both franchises are. And you know what? Fuck you and suspension of disbelief. This is a debate. I'm not going to play by these bullshit rules that you seem to think overrides common logic and the clear intent of the authors.

Incorrect. This is pointing out the absurdity of taking a persons possibly bragging or outright lie versus reality. Or basuically calling your Appeal to Authority. Suspension of Disbelief is the only way to have an argument such as this as it treats the universe as a reality. And the Authors of ST have input into the final Special Effects product.

“ A klingon torpedo hiting the unshielded USS Enterprise ”

So the fuck what? I'm putting my foot down on this VFX = Eternal Truth bullshit. This is a TV Show and I'm tired of treating it like WWII documentries. From now on, I'm taking story and intent over this bullshit. For both and all franchises. I've officially had it to here with this bullcrap.

And second, the ship still had the SIF.

Actually since Special Effects is central to a Sci FI shows ability to tell story and intent it cannot be discounted. In fact we know they have the capability to make the Special effects as grandiose as the story needs. So your argument would mean the Special Effects would have to match.

And like SIF is powerful enough to reduce a multi megaton explosion in appearing to be more than a one or two ton bomb.

[Hellblade8]

Your quotes had NO visuals or technical data to back them up.

Because there's nothing technical about giving a torpedoe's range of destruction, am I right?

But no. This is a TV show. I have no reason to suddenly believe that every character has become a pathological liar or is incapable of telling me anything about their own technology.

True, however the base was on a planet and when shown had completely open dorways with no doors. A simple WWI firestorm device would been all that was need to clear the place out.

Which tells us nothing. Just because the outer doors were open, doesn't mean that it would spell instant doom. Or did you forget that they had already stolen a ship, so they would already have sensors to detect a ship? Or did you forget about the Defiant's cloaking device?

Your side is arguing that way, keep up.

My side? Sorry, that's not good enough. I never claimed to back it up and I've corrected you twice already. Right now, you're pretty much just repeating it to try and make it appear as if you have an actual argument.

It had DOORWAYS. COmpletely open door ways without even the hint of a door.

Yeah, because a society that is decades ahead of Federation technology wouldn't have any sort of shielding that would ward off an attack. Nor of course, could there be doors on the inside that could have blocked the blast, right?

It was 40 on a two thirds view of the plent, don't you think the Romulans would have made sure the planet was surrounded.

There were only forty planets to begin with you dumb shit.

Well, I do know when the Yamato exploded from core breach in TNG the concussive blast rattled the Enterprise from several light seconds away. One would think that being only 10,000 miles above a target might make it a bit more intense.

Unless of course, the Enterprise's core breach was strong enough to vaporize the vast majority, if not all the materials during the explosion. Or of course, the Yamato could have also been moving at warp speed so the pieces could have been hurled away at high warp speeds.

Actually that might be what your transcript said, but the episode in question, and the script support my wording.

1) No, the script uses the actual episodes as a source.

2) Prove it.

3) You're still talking about it being inside the asteroid. Which I know is wrong because I've seen the episode in question half a dozen times.

And you fail to realize that Kim said it should have broken up into pieces no bigger than 10 centimeters. Vaporized means it would be gaseous, but that is only the minor error here. If the Asteroid had been more brittle than expected the pieces should have been smaller. Also the substance they found the asteroid to be had a lower melting point than Iron as well as a lower specific heat and similiar conductive properties. Meaning the samel amunt of Energy should have vaporized MORE of the actual asteroid, scientifically speaking. So Harry Kim and Commander CHakotay were in error.

No, it doesn't. Vaporization is rarely 100%. I've already explained this to you. When you hit something with a large amount of power, the weaker, more brittle parts will break off and be pushed away from the majority of the explosion, which in space, means that most of the heat isn't going to reach it.

Therefore, the only realy way to get 100% instant vaporization would be either an asburdly large warhead in the high gigaton range or it would require multiple warheads to catch the fleeing pieces.

This is basic science.

You really, don;t know how this really works do you? Once the Torpedo hit and exploded the Asteroid would have accepted all that energy and while it would have shattered, the shockwaves would have travelled through the material faster than the speed of sound.

And it's still going to cause piece to break apart faster. Do you realize the whole method behind this episode? Because it was actually fairly solid unlike most Voyager episodes. The problem wasn't that their weapons failed to vaporize--it was that their weapons were set too high and would cause the asteroid to shatter instead of vaporize.

It would be similar in comparing it to glass and steel walls. The glass wall is easier to blast through, but vaporizing it would be much harder because the glass will shatter and fly in different directions. Steel on the other hand, is much more solid and easier to vaporize because it isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Those same shockwaves you mention would help send parts of the asteroid flying away from the explosion; ie, the heat. The thing that melts it.

Se above for how this really works.

You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

No, in two examples I corrected your mistakes.

Corrected? You've corrected exactly jack shit.

Yes they did, but they did it with a standard ship weapon. Nothing special. It was noted the planet had an unstble atmosphere.

No it wasn't. How about you get the fucking quote and post it for me, if you're so sure of yourself?

Yeah, I recognize Darkstar's cherry-picking. A man who once got into an argument with the writer of a ST episode over that the episode

However to answer your argument. I'll give you a partial list of resources:
Lumber
Water
Agriculture land
Residential Land
Coal
Uranium
Minerals
Oxygen Rich atmosphere.

So obviously a BDZ is much more than imere razing.

...And? That doesn't instantly mean stripping the surface of the planet off. Because by that logic, they should also take away the mantle and the core because the core is made of iron.

If these are cherry picked, then please post some examples of BDZ. Because they sure as hell aren't any indications in these quotes that suggest 100% crust removal.

It's from the ANH novelization.

Post it.

]

Not that many? Was it half as dense as the Asteroid Field in ESB? If so then the Venerator was horribly undergunned. An ISD carries 60 Turbolasers versus the the Venerators sixteen. See the problem yet? You're compafic

Try watching the episode. There is not enough large asteroids to signifcantly block the Venators. They would have pushed through in seconds.

Well actually cuasing a lavapit to appear in an open field would leave be craters as they cooled. Plys in mop up operation concussion bomb and missles would have been used.

So, you've pretty much admitted that there is no stripping of the crust?

As for why a nuclear weapon is so effect is becuase it does realease all that energy omnidirectionally (meaning every direction at once) a Turbolaser is coing to put 99.999999% of it power forward becuase of Inertia. the other part will be conduction/convection. Watch a laser cutting metal and you'll see what i mean.

Lol. So the guy who insists they aren't lasers wants to compare them to--lasers. Brilliant. Sorry, but no. Laser cutters do not release enough energy into the target to vaporize tons of materials.

Lucasarts is not Lucasfilm nor is it Lucas himself. Lucasfilm determines canon. However I will not that while the movie maybe canon. The two trilogy's are supeiror as is any observational works based off of them. Which unfortunately includes a lot of surces that would piss you off.

Like what?

Actually there are many reasons to dial down the weapons including the desire to capture your enemies vessel and or know that on said vessel a rescue attemtp is being made.

Lol. So you're going to limit your weapons to about 10/200,000,000 times their yield when such a level of firepower would be like tossing paper balls at an brick wall. Right.

I always love it how you people seem to think that in battles that show low KT or MT, the SW forces suddenly decide for no apparent reason set their weapons to pussy.

As for Enterprise episode you are talking about the SIF would be up as they were moving and the mine caused a slightly bigger whole in that Enterprise than the photon did to the 1701 I gve picture of.....

Except the SIF didn't exist back then. The closest thing they had was the polarizing the hull. And it's not the same ship as the refitted 1701, which as we've seen, the older model Connie can pretty much bitchslap an uprated NX-01 series via A Darkly Mirror.

Saxton wrote the book, Lucas hired him at Lucasfilm's reccomendation. Just the way things go. You got a problem with it, it's your problem and thus not germaine to this debate.

And it still follows the same rules of debate. It is below T and G canon and is not any greater than C canon. If it was so important to Lucas, he would have made it higher canon. Chances are, he probably didn't care all that much.

Actually, no mult shots would not do this unless spaced out correctly in an effort to do so. The TK evvent killed off the dinosuars by kicking up a huge amount of duct debris during impact. This in turn cuased a rapid nuclear winter effect. Seeing as how the 200 gigton equivalnet turbolasers would kick up no dust and only creat short term lava holes (thus producing rish topsoil), it would take a coordinated and well orchaestrated attack to produce a dead world or BDZ.

You've yet to prove the claim of 99.99% directed energy claim. Of course, I hardly expect you to, ignoring the fact that we've already seen that they create the same results of nuclear bombs.

“Well if you refuse to read the material than you can't possibly be making any arguments about it can you? I watch Star Trek, loved everything short of Voyager and Enterprise. Loved the concept of Voyager, but the execution was piss poor.

Concession accepted, you cannot or will not prove your shit.

Attacking Sullust or Mon Cal would have got them nothing. Destroying the Shipyards would only slow down production. Both plantets were HEAVILY defended. Sullustan are subterranan so even if you got past the shields bombardment is useless and invasion is practically suicide. Mon Cal is a huge ocean planet so similair problems. Plus Palaptine was still working damage control from Alderaan. His image could survive one planetary destruction, but not three.

...Really? So the shipyards making large capital scale ships that are being used in a small fleet performing hit and run methods on your ships, transports, and bases would do nothing to reverse the rather dire situation they're in? Do you honestly think that anyone is that stupid? And really, he wouldn't need to destroy the surface of the planet. He just need to take out the shipyards and production facilities. Minimal bombardment required on the planet's part.

Mon Cal is a core world, it's one of those place Palpatine had to tippy toe around. Plus Mon Cal made Coruscant look practically undefended when it came to planetary defenses. At the of ESB and ROTJ the only tool that could have taken Mon Cal was a Death Star. Anything short of that was just a sitting target for surface batteries.

Yeah, bullshit. The RASB:

At present, the Alliance has only one planet with the faclilties to construct capital starships: Mon Calamari. The Cals are tireless workesr, driving themselves and their orbital ship-construction facilities beyond capacity, but, even at this killing speed, they are capable of prodicing perhaps one frigate or corvette a month, or one cruiser every six months.
However, this is still an extremely important addition to the Alliance’s arsenal, and High Command has done what it can to protect the Cals. The Alliance maintains a formidable presence in the Calamari system, including enough capital vessels to deal with a standard imperial battle line or perhaps even a squadron.
But the defensive fleet could not hope to take on an Imperial attack fleet and survive. The Alliance Fleet is the only force large enough to do that, and the Fleet is too precious to risk in such a dangerously exposed position—evne to defend the Mon Calamari Shipworks.

And of course, the Imperial Sourcebook:

Battle Squadrons contain an Imperial-class Star Destroyer. There are other ships, but they matter little in the configuration. In addition to the Star Detsroyer, there are at least three lines, two attack and one pursuit line, for an average of 18 ships. If there is some system in the Empire that must be repressed, some force which must be run down, a battle squadron is the force of choice. Sending a battle squadron on a mission is the Navys way of showing that the job is of utmost importance.

total: 19 ships.

That should have been a pittance compared to the millions of ships the Empire has.

Yeah, but that is individuals. Remeber group think is hard to break. I mean what if you were on a planet that was envious of Alderaan? Or what if you believed the propaganda? Or more scary, what if you didn;t but lived in a society that did? Hard to rebel if your ass is in the slammer becuase your little sis turned you in.

Yeah, except the destruction of Alderaan caused a major shitstorm for the Empire. In fact, that was the only reason planets didn't start jumping ship left and right; they were afraid they'd be next on his list.

Actually he was just trying to get rid of the competent leaders. If he kept them ineffectual he could still milk them for all they were worth.

Really? Where does it say that?

“ I said frame the Alpha quadrant. ”

I wouldn;t, but while two heads are better than one stupidity multiplies.

...What?

Are you kidding me? The Rebels had no clue that the second DS was being built until Emperor Palapatine ordered it leaked. A base that 1900km in diameter and required a million people build let alone man was done secretly for six months with nobody the wiser.

So the Empire is going to send people to secretly live on a planet that they magically got from nowhere and they're going to then reveal to the public that after they did this, that an enemy just happened to attack and it definently wasn't the Romulans in any way feeling threatened or thinking the Empire was up to something?

Seriously, how fucking stupid would anyone have to be to not see the Emperor is pulling shit out of his ass.

And why hide the colonization. Just start it up, recruit people from every planet by offering them land and reduced taxes.

Oh that's brilliant, I can see it now:

"Come live on a previously uninhabited planet located near or in enemy territory! Where? We don't know, but God does it look amazing. And we're offering this right in the middle of war too! After all, what better time is there to move when we've recruited most of your friends and families to die?"

Guard it with a few Corellian Gunships backed by a couple dozen correlian corvettes. Ample protection versus the run of the mill pirate.

"And did we mention that you'd be guarded by third rate light cruisers/frigates? That ought to keep those pirates away! And those Romulans? Well, in that case you're all fucked!"

Once it's starting to become a success and a nice place arrange for the Romulans, Cardassains, and Klingon's to learn that is it is secretly a launch base for operations in the Alpha Quadrant. (It's not....yet) Watch the native do their worst. Suddenly whole Empire is furious at the 'Massacre" including many rebels. Any Rebels that dare speak against the war in the alpha quadrant would lose support of the people. Hell, the Empire would close ranks as fast as Maerica did post Peral harbor or 9/11. Palapatine would have at least five or six years free of any serious protest or rebellion.

God you're such a stupid shit. No one trusts Palpatine. No government would set up colonies on planets that are located within arms reach of a hostile, enemy force that has probably already threatened them. Furthermore, the Empire doesn't encourage such actions to begin with because it would spred out their already thin forces--and everyone knows it.

Not really. Kill every one in hundreds of kilometers you just sead the torpedoes around. Much more efficent. Sometimes you don;t need a bigger hammer, just a smarter fire control officer.

Yeah, except your forgot the part where he's aiming at one fucking building. Why in God's name would he target everything around it when all it would do would draw the attention of the thirty starships hovering around the planet you dillweed?

Actually since ton, kiloton, and megaton are all forms of weight and expressions of firepower then yes I feel confident in this. Sorry, but i am just going based off english language, military shorthand, and reality.

Bull. You've proven exactly jack shit. Because one minute it means ton yields and the next it means weight, as according to whatever makes your argument look good. In other words, Special Pleading Fallacy.

You're on the same side supporting it. CLaiming that character dialogue trumps visualization.

Go fuck yourself. I did not make that argument.

“ What I am saying is that it does refer to weight and weight only. When someone refers to it for the photon torpedo it is either tons of TNT like all other explosives, or someing close to TNT. Or at the very outside it my be that it can vaporize a set number of tons of a material. But we know it is not a measure of mega or gigatons as nothing in show supports it. . ”

Fine ignore all evidence to the contrary. You're just proving yourself incapble of understanding.

Contrary evidence? Oh right, two horrible misquotes, lack of understanding of explosions, and trying to manipulate the use of terms in a way that'll make your argument work rather than look really fucking stupid.

Dumbass, because it's not like a bomb 10 times stronger than that hit a 200 year old ship with its defenses down and it survived.

Oh wait.

Certainly seems to me like they are talking a weight. Your quotation of Chief O'Brien's device seems to be talking of a weight. How hard is to understand that isoton must be a measure of weight that is also used in a firepower shorthand? Doesn;t seem all that hard to understand to me.

And how hard is it for you to understand that you're pulling shit out of your ass? It isn't. We both know you're trying to switch out the intention for both cases to support your bullshit argument, when such a thing is easily seen through by both sides. There is no reason for O'Brien to use weight because it tells Sisko jack shit about the bomb. He would give its effective yield because that's what would tell him what it's capable of, hence why he follows it with an approximation of its destructive radius.

As for your inflated weapons output, I am sorry, but you just don;t see those effects at all in ST.

In fact check here and you'll be a bit susprised on what bombs can actually do.

Not really, I've alredy known this.

“ In any suspension of disbelief the Visuals ALWYS take precedence over dialog. ”

I say no, they don't. Don't like it? Fuck off.

Becuase a Person can be wrong. If Riker said a Photon Torpedo would be all it took to take out a sattelite and whoops they have to fire a second was it bad special effects or just the character making an error?

So according to you people write characters that are either retardes or pathological liars?

“ Character can be wrong, environment never is. ”

Except that is a flawed conclusion. We have countless VFX errors in sci-fi to show that this is not true. Or do ships often magically change their size? Or do weapons that show shockwaves that cross the planet in seconds often have small fireballs?

Well, since that happens only in ST and only via character quotes....yeah

Ah Scott, the stupid little shit who knows not what he does.

“ If Einstein told you that there was absolutely no way in the world a nuclear bomb could be built, then you saw the nuclear test, what would you believe? ”

False Dilemma fallacy.

Incorrect. This is pointing out the absurdity of taking a persons possibly bragging or outright lie versus reality. Or basuically calling your Appeal to Authority. Suspension of Disbelief is the only way to have an argument such as this as it treats the universe as a reality. And the Authors of ST have input into the final Special Effects product.

And I say no, because you've indicated a Slippery Slope Fallacy and a False Dilemma Fallacy in order to make your argument work. Nor in fact, do you seem to understand the use of Appeal to Authority. That's only made when someone is claiming that someone knows what they're talking about when they're not the authority on that specific subject, but rather something else.

Actually since Special Effects is central to a Sci FI shows ability to tell story and intent it cannot be discounted. In fact we know they have the capability to make the Special effects as grandiose as the story needs. So your argument would mean the Special Effects would have to match.

Yeah, because Paramount regularly has people go over budget because they want realistic explosions. Is that why they used stock footage for half the major battles? Furthermore, if you're argument was correct, then we'd see them using correct explosions anyway, so either the developers don't care or they don't really know what it looks like and leave it up to the people they hired to do it for them and only really care about the major stuff.

And like SIF is powerful enough to reduce a multi megaton explosion in appearing to be more than a one or two ton bomb.

Given that the full assault of the Avenger's energy weapons did exactly--no, literally jack shit the hull of the Defiant (Constitution class) without shields or SIF--I would say you know exactly jack shit.

[Kittamaru]

Actually any weapon with a masive amount of energy that can be converted to heat could turn any gas to plasma. What I seriously doubt is a vessel that's main reactor produces 12 billion gigawatts has the energy output to turn an entire atmosphere of an Earth like planet to plasma in seconds.

See I am not doubting turning a small amount of atmosphere to plasma, hell laser fire can handle that. I am doubting the entire atmosphere in one go.

Yet you have no proof that the maximum output of any starfleet vessel only 12 bil gigawatts... you have one statement that states their current power, nothing more.

[fedr808]

Star wars shields wouldn't even WORK against phasers.

They can only defend against the spectrum of light which lasers use.

Phasers are Photon Masers. They actually produce significantly larger amounts of energy than a laser across a much, much larger spectrum including radiation.

A phaser would simply go straight through the star wars shields.

It's physics, and physics is greater than any arguement you can give against.

[Hellblade8]

Star wars shields wouldn't even WORK against phasers.

They can only defend against the spectrum of light which lasers use.

Um, there's no reason to believe that's true. Turbolasers in Star Wars is believed to be a form of plasma due to the way they act.

Phasers are Photon Masers. They actually produce significantly larger amounts of energy than a laser across a much, much larger spectrum including radiation.

A phaser would simply go straight through the star wars shields.

It's physics, and physics is greater than any arguement you can give against.

The problem is that your argument is ignorant of a few other factors. Granted, they won't last long due to the amount of energy being poured into those shields, but they will take a few hits.

[Kittamaru]

fedr808, Phasers aren't Photon Masers... it's PHAsed Energy Rectification System... they use an imaginary Nadion particle.

Also: Star Trek Destiny (Book series) and other related books have been rendered Full Canon by Paramount Pictures... TW Scott, you're buttfucked six ways to sunday.

[Hellblade8]

fedr808, Phasers aren't Photon Masers... it's PHAsed Energy Rectification System... they use an imaginary Nadion particle.

Also: Star Trek Destiny (Book series) and other related books have been rendered Full Canon by Paramount Pictures... TW Scott, you're buttfucked six ways to sunday.

Wasn't that pulled back as a mistake?

[fedr808]

fedr808, Phasers aren't Photon Masers... it's PHAsed Energy Rectification System... they use an imaginary Nadion particle.

Also: Star Trek Destiny (Book series) and other related books have been rendered Full Canon by Paramount Pictures... TW Scott, you're buttfucked six ways to sunday.

they were originally photon masers, than they figured that they wanted to change it's name to sound more futuristic, but in reality, phased energy rectification is basically the same idea.

The advantage over lasers is lasers only really participate in a small part of the spectrum. Masers cover entire sections of the spectrum much larger.

That's why there are so many settings for a phaser, different parts of the spectrum and different amounts of energy for different jobs.

[TW Scott]

Also: Star Trek Destiny (Book series) and other related books have been rendered Full Canon by Paramount Pictures... TW Scott, you're buttfucked six ways to sunday.

Actually there is some question to that yet. As these were produced before the Movie, which is hardest canon. In all of ST we have followed the rule that when someone alters an entire timeline by traveling back in time and making a change that the new timeline is the Prime one. This has been true in TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY. It was also true in ST:IV. So in all of following the pattern of ST, the 2009 movie is the Prime timeline and thus is THE canon. Of course if you want to include the Destiny book go right ahead, asbasically it eliminates the only species that was even a threat to SW forces: The Borg.

Of course if you are gonna argue the books of St being canon, you are absolutely not allowed to invalidate anything canon that comes from the SW books either. In which case you are actually in bigger trouble than you were before.

[Hellblade8]

Actually there is some question to that yet. As these were produced before the Movie, which is hardest canon. In all of ST we have followed the rule that when someone alters an entire timeline by traveling back in time and making a change that the new timeline is the Prime one. This has been true in TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY. It was also true in ST:IV. So in all of following the pattern of ST, the 2009 movie is the Prime timeline and thus is THE canon. Of course if you want to include the Destiny book go right ahead, asbasically it eliminates the only species that was even a threat to SW forces: The Borg.

Of course if you are gonna argue the books of St being canon, you are absolutely not allowed to invalidate anything canon that comes from the SW books either. In which case you are actually in bigger trouble than you were before.

This has been debunked time after time; the new Trek is a new, different alternate timeline. It has absolutely no bearing upon Trek Prime save for the loss of Romulas and Spock. This isn't new, we've seen episodes where there are alternate timelines before, including the multiple Mirror episodes in TOS, DS9, and Enteprise, as well as a TNG episode where Worf was being phased through multiple realities.

The only difference is that this is an atlernate Trek Universe in the past.

[TW Scott]

This has been debunked time after time; the new Trek is a new, different alternate timeline. It has absolutely no bearing upon Trek Prime save for the loss of Romulas and Spock. This isn't new, we've seen episodes where there are alternate timelines before, including the multiple Mirror episodes in TOS, DS9, and Enteprise, as well as a TNG episode where Worf was being phased through multiple realities.

No it hasn't.

First of all the Mirror Universes are not alternate timleines but paraleel dimensions. This was made abundantly clear as nothing you did in one effected the other, unless you pulled people from the other side.

In every other time jump episode what the characters did in the past completely rewrote the Prime timeline. I will give examples.

Star Trek IV: Their jump to the past rewrote history so that the whales and their doctor disappeared in the old timeline.

Deep Space Nine:
Sisko travelled back to a period were he had to take the place of some historical figure that he vaguely resembled. From then on all the pictures in history books changed to the image of Sisko.

The DS9 crew took part in the Trouble with Tribbles episode, thus minorly rewriting the timeline tothe events taken place there.

First Contact:
Riker's influense of Cochran is plainly evident as we see that before he spoke to the Star Feleet officer he was just a greedy capitalist. This event actually set the timeline right, but still.

TNG:
When Tasha travelled back with the Enterprise C she changed the timeline allowing for the birth of her daughter, a figure unknown in ST before that episode, despite he postion of power and interest in revenge against Picard.


In these episodes an alternate timeline might have been created, however the show stays with the new timeline and proclaims it as the Prime timeline.


Now you could whip out all good things, but that was really just the nullification of a paradox, the actions of Picard and crew basically destroying one complete timeline. Star Trek 2009 did not destroy the old timeline, it just merely redefined which one was Prime.

[George1]

so this is what this argument got to?
some people apparently don't focuses on the fact that
SW technology WORKS,and simply says it is more primitive
or basic...even know ALL SW ships are thousands of times better
at weapon power,energy production,interstellar travel,basically everything!
not to mention it was thousands of years in the making.'
but NOOOOOOOO...how could you go beyond your vision of ST?
let me tell you something:
star trek is all a bunch of boring (and inaccurate) science.
i like science,but if i want to learn or enjoy science,i watch a documentary!
star trek is THE most boring scifi series of ALL times that were,are and will be!!
live with it!
star trek sucks! period! every single episode is nothing more than
VERY bad technology,ship,plot,battles,scenes,species and planets!!!!!!!

[George1]

Star wars shields wouldn't even WORK against phasers.

They can only defend against the spectrum of light which lasers use.

Phasers are Photon Masers. They actually produce significantly larger amounts of energy than a laser across a much, much larger spectrum including radiation.

A phaser would simply go straight through the star wars shields.

It's physics, and physics is greater than any arguement you can give against.

and no my trekki,if you would REED or WATCH SW,you would observe
they use plasma-energy base weapons.star wars shield are much better
that what trek has to offer.they use stupid bubble shape shields at a large
distance from the hull,instead of focusing it closer to make the ship
A SMALLER TARGET!

[FoolFromHell]

I decided, HEY! LETS REVISIT THE THREAD!

Then I came here and each post is something like 5-6 page lengths long.

WHOAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaa