Star Wars vs Star Trek

[fedr808]

I believe DATA or & Of Nine already invented that while fighting the Borg I maybe wrong but I recall a simlar device was used for the Borg cube and the Drones

It was some sort of device that chanegd the frequency IN BETWEEN shots (btw, I bold to exxagerate something, not to insult) what my idea is that the phaser beam will change frequencies thousands of times when it is fired, because evntually with thousands of chnages it will hit the right frequency and bypass the shield.

[Grim_Reaper]

Ah I stand corrected this is true it was between shots.

[alpinedigital]

not just light metals. to a degree all metals.
i think it is safe to say that the higher the atom weight the less vulnerable the material is to phaser fire
...not if the weapon attacks the weak nuclear bonds or carries away the energy in some other manner.
he said atomise thus attacking the nuclear bonds not the molecular.

Is there some description of how these work? Cuzz I can imagine with a phaser, they can adjust settings to affect different molecular structures, so they can heat things with it, or cut through it, and I don't think the configurations are limited to the standard presets, kinda like tricorders standard sensors can be temporarily adjusted to detect other materials or anomalies. (I don't mean in the field, I mean at a science station before going into battle.)

we KNOW it is the budget and/or plot that makes all this thingies look senseless but it is the only thing we got. visuals. otherwise we are forced (and there is nothing to stop us) to make up any theory or hypothesys we want.

We as in some of us? because I would have hoped some people would choose not to argue things that didn't have a better source of data other than some effect that may or may not be supportive for or against. There's just too much stuff that was invented to look cool rather than be ammunition for an argument.

the thing is Scott claims that the ISD in question is the one that got smacked by an asteroid and everyone else here claims it is not so sinse that ship got her tower sent to the afterlife.

Oh yeah, damage caused a blind spot... was that a hole in the shields AND sensors?

i'd conceal the transporters you mention and use isolinear tags and signal ampifiers + some subspace remotes to beam my own guerillas and saboteours in and out of holstile theritory. maybe set up some relay points to get a better line of sight. anyways i would not waste them on enemy troops directly. that is why phasers/disruptors are for.

Yeah but consider if there was something that wasn't suitable for transport... something unstable, or that needed to be contained. If you could get start dematerializing something that causes an explosion, I'd do it. LOL

[antaran_1979]

It was some sort of device that chanegd the frequency IN BETWEEN shots (btw, I bold to exxagerate something, not to insult) what my idea is that the phaser beam will change frequencies thousands of times when it is fired, because evntually with thousands of chnages it will hit the right frequency and bypass the shield.

aye it is similar but more randomised than the rotating frequencies. have you ever played the "Brith of the Federation" turn based strategy game? there was a tech there called "micro-pulsing" or something like that, that improved the phaser performance on the fed vessels. i think it proposed something similar in order to bypass/oveload enemy shielding.

the only down side to this "pulsing phaser" would be that the amplitude of the beam might not always corespond to the vulnerable frequency of the enemy and that the short window of oportunity would result with only a portion of the energy delivered to the target (which is still more then if was blocked by a shield).

[antaran_1979]

1.Is there some description of how these work? Cuzz I can imagine with a phaser, they can adjust settings to affect different molecular structures, so they can heat things with it, or cut through it, and I don't think the configurations are limited to the standard presets, kinda like tricorders standard sensors can be temporarily adjusted to detect other materials or anomalies. (I don't mean in the field, I mean at a science station before going into battle.)



2.We as in some of us? because I would have hoped some people would choose not to argue things that didn't have a better source of data other than some effect that may or may not be supportive for or against. There's just too much stuff that was invented to look cool rather than be ammunition for an argument.



3.Oh yeah, damage caused a blind spot... was that a hole in the shields AND sensors?



4.Yeah but consider if there was something that wasn't suitable for transport... something unstable, or that needed to be contained. If you could get start dematerializing something that causes an explosion, I'd do it. LOL

1.yes it is both clear and canon that phasers can do many different things based on their setting (that does not always include gradual increse of damage to a target). we are trying to explain the mechanism behind the "highest" setting, that is the "vaporise" level. from what we see on screen (in ship mounted examples), a relatively short burst of phaser energy is enough to disrupt/desintegrate large amounts of material (often far more then expected, when taken into account that there is no blast) as far as rocks or living tissue is at stake. but then again when fired against the high density armor of the ship's hull it takes much longer bursts to cause far less damage even on unshielded targets. also in hand phaser examples entire living organisms and piles of rock are often "vaporised" at higher settings (even few cubic meters per burst) while the most we've seen from hitting a wall protecting some conduits is a hole no bigger then 50cm in diameter. this leads us to belive that higher density materials provide better protection against the nadion effect. and there is in the end the "neutronium example". pure neutronium is practicaly compleatly resistant to phaser fire (and is used even by the alpha quadrant powers to impregnate materials used in personal armour) and incidently this "material" is the very epithome of dense substance, being in essence a bundle of nucleons (neutrons) kept apart only by the week nuclear force. if it has not been for this, the ship's hull resistance to phasers could be explained by SIF fields alone. even carbon-neutronium (a compound used in the dyson sphere) would make phaser cutting a futile attempt (leading me to believe that the more articulated the phaser beam is the more limited the nadion effect is and this somewhat explains why feds use phasers and not disruptors; the later being less configurable and prone to lots of colateral damage).

2.many of us here, especially of you look in the early 200 pages or up to 300+ there was much documentation used, making the claims hard to ignore.

3.the standard interpretation is that the ship was overwealmed by the incomming asteroids as they spent too much time there, so they just could not fire in time even if they tracked the trajectory of the incomming asteroid. some proclaim that the energy sourses were stretched thin and some claim sensors being jammed by the asteroid clutter. i say, judging by the slow moving gun platforms in EpIV and III and the reloading mechanism for the HTLs in EpIII there is no room for the energy argument. HTLs are not directly fed through the energy distribution of the ship but use some sort of packs/shells which are inserted into the "cannon" and then fired. this gives them a rather slow reload time. add the slow targeting mech and there is no doubt you'd miss a rapidly closing object. the smaller bateries might have higher ratios of fire up to 1 shot per second or 1 in 2 seconds but these do not seam to be all that powerful and their platorms are still slow.

4.then why not beam a mine or granade next to it. or inside of it. it would be both creative and canon (done on screen).

[TW Scott]

So tell me, if you had to fight with trek tech and your own life depended on it and you were in charge of dreaming up and running 3 independent transporter systems for an upcoming ground battle and you had unlimited trek resources and personnel to build and operate them, you're telling me you'd fail drastically? And please don't throw any other scenario bullshit into it, Im not interested, I am only interested in 3 concepts for using a transporter against an enemy in battle. You're welcome to use any technology to support the systems. Consider this a test to see how clever you are, cuzz so far you've only come up with ways of making a system NOT work.

oh easy,

First: Transporters would make great artillery. Beam in a explosive material or massive rock above the enemy. Of course set the transporters for the least resolution as it just needs to gets the molecules right. This would also lessen the effect of ECM interference.

Second: Transporters used with pattern boosters to make rapid retreats possible. Make it a war of attrition.

Third: Transporters used on wide dispersal with any number of materials to create smoke, fog, or even chemical weapon banks of clouds.

[TW Scott]

Well if Han Solo knew damage would create a blind spot, or had a means of detecting one, I could see there being that argument, and I didnt see any of that mentioned. He acted like he knew there was a blind spot there, and just flipped a U-turn and went and parked on it like he'd done it or seen it done before.

Well he had been being chased for several minutes by the Avenger. In fact from the way they talk it had been almost ten or so. More than enough time for Han to find out what he did. Of course considering her was a Imperial First Lieutenant he probably knew of a weak spot in the sensor grid and also knew that the Avenger was putting all power to front deflectors.

[TW Scott]

the output of the cannon maybe, the destructivnes of the weapon, hardly. the screen overrides this.

Show mere where on screen the Heavy Turbo Laser firepower is disproven.

I'm waiting.

[TW Scott]

Yes, but in general a collection of rocks, rubble, and dirt will take more to break than the cohesive bonds of metal due to the fact that the rubble and rocks and dirt are not all nicely connected (as is a sheet of metal for example). It has to transfer some of it's energy thru "empty" space.

actually it would be a bit easier as smaller particles would absorb energy and atomize more quickly thus letting you get tot he next one. Meanwhile in Metal your spreading the energy over a wide area of the sheet of metal

[TW Scott]

The thing is, I'm not SAYING 5 mil GW is more htan 12.75 bil GW.

But in your post you DID. You went in to quote Harry and start claiming that somehow the number he gave was MUCH higher than the number Data gave. You can go back and check.

[TW Scott]

How would htye have to expose themselves? It's not like visual targeting - they wouldn't need an unobstructed line of sight to do, say, thermal or microwave targeting. Even today, we have systems that can determine range, bearing, and direction of travel using just sonar/thermal/radar/etc.

Given that many material naturally occuring in some planets screw with tricorder readings it's only a natural assumption. Plus honestly Secuirity in the federation is surprisingly over confident that people won't shoot them.

[TW Scott]

uh-oh i'm tempted to open the can of worms that is the bridge impact scene, but i won't. that was discussed far to much and well documented. even the SW side went to the pesimistic option, but hey suit your self...

Well on that score I go with the how fast things went south.

If you remeber when the Invisible Hand lost stabilizers and was headed for corusant? It took some time for bridge to get it under controll.

Now with the bridge impact the controls got shorted and sent the SSD careening towards the Death Star. Auxiliary Control just didn;t have the time t save themselves.

[Kittamaru]

not to close but close enough, especially sinse you'd need exact lock + the constant feedback with the transporter. general coordinates will not help if the transporter is in other ways "blind".

Not really - this is only true if you want the person to survive So long as you catch a part of their body, you've done the job I mean, how much would it suck for half your body to dematerialize? LOL!

[Kittamaru]

those figures seam pretty arbitrary to me. i can't really remember a movie or an episode where there is a direct corelation of impulse fractions and km/h or km/s. any links or refferences would help. it was always my impression that larger vessels were way slower on impulse (E-D VS Hathaway). the relativistic velocities you propose look more like micro warp jumps to me.

* Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual indicates that the impulse engines are nuclear fusion engines whereas the plasma from the fusion reactor powers a massive magnetic coil to propel the ship. It is a form of magnetoplasmadynamic thruster. This is used in conjunction with the ship's warp drive's alteration of the ships relativistic mass, to achieve mid-to-high sub-light speeds. Thrusters, on the other hand, are closer to the designs of a high-efficiency reactant propellant (i.e. a sophisticated rocket engine) and are usually used for high-precision maneuvers. Ion propulsion drives are explicitly detailed to be used in Star Trek by Dominion and Iconian Starships and facilities.

* Since a ship traveling at impulse velocities (slower than, but approaching, the speed of light) is still traveling in the normal space-time continuum, concerns of time dilation apply, so high relativistic speeds are avoided unless absolutely necessary; impulse power is therefore customarily limited to a maximum of ¼ lightspeed


In one episode they state that because of time dilation effects, ships normally travel at about 1/2-2/3 impulse at most. Also, impulse speed has nothing to do with ship size - remember, no real resistance in space, so you could accelerate to a max of the maximum speed of the partical expulsion from the engines reaction (think our modern day Ion drive theories). Some ships, like the Ent-E, have oversized impulse drives that allow greater acceleration and speeds (because they can maneuver at higher speeds)

Ships also can use their warp field to reduce their mass, enabling higher speeds. This is typically done over 3/4 impulse as it also helps reduce the effects of time dilation.

[Kittamaru]

1. you need mechs cause they provide speed, survivability and power generation infantry can't provide.

2. you need transports cause transporters leaves your ship vulnerable to attack. besides during amhibious attacks your battleships and cruisers should provide cover and supressive fire not be bound to deploying troops. and there are always the enviorenemntal factors that may prevent beaming.

Well, to point 1 - Shuttlecraft and site-to-site teleportation would be far more effective.

To point 2 - shuttlecraft and landing craft (we've seen the Klingons have assault ships and landing craft, it's safe to assume the federation, their allies, have them too)

[Kittamaru]

I had another cool idea for a good weapon.

I call it the oscillating phaser.

I got the idea off of how watches work, modern watches have a small piece of quartz that when in a vacum oscillates 33,000 times a second. And a little counter that everytime it hits 33,000 it adds one more second.

So what if you had a phaser thats oscillates tens of thousands of times through a frequency when it is fired, assuming a phaser is active for maybe one second, at some point some part of the phaser will hit the right frequency of the enemies shields and will penetrate and do direct damage to the hull.

This would also work very well with the borg.

This was the idea behind the Infinity-Modulator Phaser Rifle that 7 of 9 designed

[Kittamaru]

we KNOW it is the budget and/or plot that makes all this thingies look senseless but it is the only thing we got. visuals. otherwise we are forced (and there is nothing to stop us) to make up any theory or hypothesys we want.

Exactly... we go with whats on screen because otherwise we can make up whatever we want.

[Kittamaru]

It was some sort of device that chanegd the frequency IN BETWEEN shots (btw, I bold to exxagerate something, not to insult) what my idea is that the phaser beam will change frequencies thousands of times when it is fired, because evntually with thousands of chnages it will hit the right frequency and bypass the shield.

Problem with this is in how the phaser works - pulse phasers could do this (with each pulse being a separate frequency and modulation) but not with a beam.

[Kittamaru]

Show mere where on screen the Heavy Turbo Laser firepower is disproven.

I'm waiting.

Easy - any time an HTL hit ANYTHING, it would be instantly vaporized. If your firepower desires were to be given reality, you could use an HTL to pop moons DS Superlaser style...

[Kittamaru]

Given that many material naturally occuring in some planets screw with tricorder readings it's only a natural assumption. Plus honestly Secuirity in the federation is surprisingly over confident that people won't shoot them.

Yes, they interfere with super sensitive, delicate readings (like trying to determine the adrenal level of a humanoid at 300 yards)

All you would need is to know that there is indeed an enemy there, beam that area of space up, wipe the pattern buffer, rinse repeat ad infint