Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Kittamaru]

Considering a Soverian classes warp drive is only 120% to 150% of a Galaxy Classes and the pahsers maybe 50% more efficient......The Sovereign would be dead in the water long before the Star Wars shield was even taken below 95% intact.


This is a mismatch here. SW vessels take repeated shots from 200 gigiaton weapons before their shields buckle and even then they take repeated scores before the vessel is even moderately wounded. The best weapon is ST aresenal 128 megaton medium range torpedo only usable by some vessels.

No... no they don't... and no, no they aren't.

You keep grossly over-estimating your own fire power while grossly underestimating ours...

Let me ask you a question: If your shields are so damn powerful... then WHY was Han worried at ALL when Stormtroopers were firing HAND BLASTERS at the Falcon while escaping the Death Star? Unless, of course, your handheld blasters are shooting hundred+ gigaton blasts... in which case why isn't EVERYTHING they hit INSTANTLY vaporized?

[Kittamaru]

Provided you spent any time looking at your fellow ships instead of scanning the asteroid field like Lord Vader told you too. Sorry, but even in ST people just don't go scanning things randomly unless they have a reason.

Well, I don't know about you - but if I was looking for something that I didn't know where it went, I'd have EVERY sensor searching EVERY direction... but then again, I'm not an incompetent Star Wars ship captain...

Actually they hit many Ewok and Ewok catapults. In fact I can only think of a few trees they hit mean while the vehicle grade blaster was picking off Ewok who are only a meter high.

In ESB the rock that hit the tower EXPLODED on the surface of the armor. The shlight downward angle of the moving vessel and the way it was moving faster than the SSD in the background does allow for the tower to intact after impact. The rest of SW canon supports as it was Captain Needa's hologram that faded out. Later Captain Needa was seen chasing the Millenium Falcon in a PRISTINE Avenger.

Uh, no. It's GONE... need I go thru this again?

In RotJ we have explained time and again why the A-wing got through. Thinking this would happen under anything but the similiar circumstances is just sheer idiocy.

As for the firepower, remember you never see the captial ship weapons fail to complete vaporize of destroy anything not shielded that they have shot at.



Are you kidding, with the exception of the Intrepid and Defiant class anything bigger than a shuttle in the federation could not survive constant gravity. Hell the GCS would sag if not for her structural intergrity field.

3. i DO say ST is inferior SF when compared to SW. well most of SW is better SF then most of ST (epVI and ep I) being exceptions in SW and some TNG and DS9 episodes for ST. but all i nall ST suffers from all the flaws a TV production suffers.
for war purposes,as i stated before, i think that numbers not tech can make SW win. and i'm sorry to say i still did not finish programing the simulator for GCS VS ISD engagement to quantify this claim as in how many SW is needed to slam some ST. too much obligation at work and too many guns on the ISDs to safely script it without crushing the BC. even the main arrays on hte GCS got me 2 weeks work alone. not to mention they are still 2 beams away from the rapid fire mode ...

Well for your equation you do have to program in the fact that the ISD is a Carrier, 72 TIE, 12 Tie Bombers, 12 Assault Shuttles, 6 Lambda Shuttles, and 3 Strike Cruisers are part of her compliment. While these vessels are more fragile than the ISD they are heavily armed by Fed standards so would be a serious threat if ignored.[/QUOTE]

Proof that the ISD bridge tower is FUCKING GONE:



Note the location of the ISD bridge tower- you can't see anything behind it...

IMPACT


AS THE DUST SETTLES:



NOTE - NOW YOU CAN SEE THE WINDOWS AND ENGINES OF THE EXECUTOR THRU THE DEBRIS FIELD - ERGO, THE BRIDGE TOWER IS FUCKING GONE! You can even see a large piece of debris floating around where the tower SHOULD be!

[Kittamaru]

This is an OVERLAY of the pre-impact and aftermath scenes...





Pretty damn conclusive, is it not?

[fedr808]

UGH, stop thinking that larger is better!

ANOTHER example: The Class 7 warp core used on the Galaxy Class starship is HUGE... yet the Class 8 core on the Defiant produces MORE power... and the class 9 core of the Sovereign, while SMALLER than the Class 7 core, produces nearly 80% more power!

Size is unimportant... it's like saying a super-massive black hole is any more dangerous than a quantum singularity - run into either one, and you're screwed :P

Size doesnt matter when the size is within a few hundred meters were talking about a couple of kilometers. Size does matter

[Kittamaru]

No, it doesn't...

ANOTHER example:

What's more dangerous to fly into? A Neutron Star or a Red Giant?

What's going to do more damage to you - a small, hyper-sonic projectile, or a large, sub-sonic projectile?

What's going to hurt more? Being hit in the face with a 2x4, or being hit in the face with a 2x4 with a nail in it?

What's going to produce more power? A 100,000 pound conventional warhead, or a 15,000 pound nuclear warhead?

What's going to produce more energy - a 1 sq mile nuclear power plant, or a 50 sq mile coal-burning plant?

What will produce more energy? Annihilating 1 cubic foot of matter with 1 cubic foot of antimatter, or burning 1 million cubic feet of oil?

Size does not matter... efficiency matters... problem is, we simply don't KNOW what kind of engine or power source WH40K uses...

[fedr808]

No, it doesn't...

ANOTHER example:

What's more dangerous to fly into? A Neutron Star or a Red Giant?

What's going to do more damage to you - a small, hyper-sonic projectile, or a large, sub-sonic projectile?depends on the mass of each if you told me the exact velocity and mass i could tell you.

What's going to hurt more? Being hit in the face with a 2x4, or being hit in the face with a 2x4 with a nail in it?with the nail in it, more force on a smaller point= more pain

What's going to produce more power? A 100,000 pound conventional warhead, or a 15,000 pound nuclear warhead?the nuke

What's going to produce more energy - a 1 sq mile nuclear power plant, or a 50 sq mile coal-burning plant?depends on how much coal and how many control rods are activated.

What will produce more energy? Annihilating 1 cubic foot of matter with 1 cubic foot of antimatter, or burning 1 million cubic feet of oil?considering that we have never been able to so much as FIND a single iota of antimatter the 1 million cubic feet of oil would win because as of yet antimatte's existance is questionable because where there should be tons and tons of antimatter according to the theory, there is none.

Size does not matter... efficiency matters... problem is, we simply don't KNOW what kind of engine or power source WH40K uses...we know this, that the power source would have to be atleast as powerful as the largest most efficient ST one because it has to power engines 3 kilometers long, and thas not including planet destroying weaponry and shields.

Also, a quantum singularity is a point in space of infinite mass and no volume, it is what makes black holes suck in everything around them. A quantum singularity is what is found inside a black hole, so questioning which is more deadly a supermassive blackhole or a quantum singularity is completely idiotic because they are pretty much the same thing.

[Kittamaru]

Wow... just... just wow...

There are no words... you ADMIT that larger =/= better... and yet you STILL argue that, JUST BECAUSE your ENGINES are huge, your power supply MUST BE as well... and because it MUST be huge, it MUST be better...

There, really, are no words...



And I appologize, I meant a quantum-mechanical black hole, pardon my misuse of the terminology

[Nasor]

Data was not designed to want to become human. He was merely designed to mimic humanoids to make "us" comfortable with him. If I recall correctly this has been stated on air. "Desire" was not part of his initial parameters. Neither was ambition, rebellion for a greater good, the concept of a greater good, musical and artistic interests...or even the concept of hobbies. These were not part of Noonien Soong's initial design.

I can't provide any specific references at the moment, but I'm pretty sure Soong did indeed design data to gradually become human (or at least, to gradually develop a human-like mind). The idea was that since Lore went crazy when he was created with human emotions etc. from initial activation, Soong hoped that Data could gradually develop a human mind but still be sane if he started out relatively non-human and slowly "worked his way into it." I think this was all explained in that DS9/TNG crossover episode, where Data suddenly started having dreams and met with Soong in a dream sequence (although I'm not entirely sure that was the episode).

Also, wasn't the stuff about data merely being designed to seem human so that people would be comfortable around him just something that Lore told him? If so, there's a good chance it was just BS.

[Kittamaru]

And as for your desire for redefinitions...

What's more dangerous to fly into? A Neutron Star or a Red Giant?

What's going to do more damage to you - a 30mm PGU-13/B High Explosive Incendiary (which weighs 12 oz) fired from a GAU-8 Avenger, which puts it at roughly 3,500 ft/second, or a civil-war era cannon firing a 32 pound solid-shot projectile that's moving at roughly 750 ft/sec?

What's going to produce more energy - a 1 sq mile nuclear power plant, or a 50 sq mile coal-burning plant, both operating at 100% capacity.

What will produce more energy? Annihilating 1 cubic inch of matter with 1 cubic inch of antimatter, or burning 100 thousand cubic inches of oil? This is going by suspension of disbelief - we know for a fact antimatter exists in small quantities, so ignore the fact that currently we can't make that quantity yet. This is also considering that we are using ALL the fuel up as fast as possible.

[Kittamaru]

I can't provide any specific references at the moment, but I'm pretty sure Soong did indeed design data to gradually become human (or at least, to gradually develop a human-like mind). The idea was that since Lore went crazy when he was created with human emotions etc. from initial activation, Soong hoped that Data could gradually develop a human mind but still be sane if he started out relatively non-human and slowly "worked his way into it." I think this was all explained in that DS9/TNG crossover episode, where Data suddenly started having dreams and met with Soong in a dream sequence (although I'm not entirely sure that was the episode).

Also, wasn't the stuff about data merely being designed to seem human so that people would be comfortable around him just something that Lore told him? If so, there's a good chance it was just BS.

Actually, Soong developed data to act LESS human so that the others in his colony would be comfortable around him... he also designed him to not be ABLE to become as human, as the colonists feared Data and Lore... I forget the episode in question where it is explained - I'll have to try to find it Data did meet with Soong at one point, I forget how, and Soong was... nothing short of amazed at how Data had advanced

[Kittamaru]

BTW - TWScott - just got a single image that I think defines you and all your attacks and attempts to suckle from Lucas' tit:

[fedr808]

And as for your desire for redefinitions...

What's more dangerous to fly into? A Neutron Star or a Red Giant?

What's going to do more damage to you - a 30mm PGU-13/B High Explosive Incendiary (which weighs 12 oz) fired from a GAU-8 Avenger, which puts it at roughly 3,500 ft/second, or a civil-war era cannon firing a 32 pound solid-shot projectile that's moving at roughly 750 ft/sec?

What's going to produce more energy - a 1 sq mile nuclear power plant, or a 50 sq mile coal-burning plant, both operating at 100% capacity.

What will produce more energy? Annihilating 1 cubic inch of matter with 1 cubic inch of antimatter, or burning 100 thousand cubic inches of oil? This is going by suspension of disbelief - we know for a fact antimatter exists in small quantities, so ignore the fact that currently we can't make that quantity yet. This is also considering that we are using ALL the fuel up as fast as possible.

If you don't mind put that in grams and meters/second not to be mean but all of the equations are based off of grams and meters it wont work well with feet and pounds.

[Kittamaru]

Uh... heh, I'll get back to you on that - got a soccer match in a few mins and I don't really know off the top of my head 0o'

[TW Scott]

No... no they don't... and no, no they aren't.

You keep grossly over-estimating your own fire power while grossly underestimating ours...

Let me ask you a question: If your shields are so damn powerful... then WHY was Han worried at ALL when Stormtroopers were firing HAND BLASTERS at the Falcon while escaping the Death Star? Unless, of course, your handheld blasters are shooting hundred+ gigaton blasts... in which case why isn't EVERYTHING they hit INSTANTLY vaporized?

Actually the figures i have quoted are Lucas and lucasfilm approved G canon. The reasonit is G canon is that it is done by observation of the movies.

As for Han being worried about Blaster rifles being fired at his ship during take off, I had neve ever heard of seen such a thing and if it did exist it might be while powered down the Falcons shields are not up. However i will go with complete non worry as it did not seem Han carred at all if the Falcon got shot, just himself.

[TW Scott]

Proof that the ISD bridge tower is FUCKING GONE:



Note the location of the ISD bridge tower- you can't see anything behind it...

IMPACT


AS THE DUST SETTLES:



NOTE - NOW YOU CAN SEE THE WINDOWS AND ENGINES OF THE EXECUTOR THRU THE DEBRIS FIELD - ERGO, THE BRIDGE TOWER IS FUCKING GONE! You can even see a large piece of debris floating around where the tower SHOULD be!

But you will note that the ISD is substationally farther forward and downard form where it was prior to impact. In fact if you move an image in synch with you would see that the SSD windows that were previously blocked by the ISD tower would no long have been blocked anyways.

Scriptwise and extended scene wise we know the vessel is the Avenger, the ship that later the Milenium Falcon was cling to the twoewr bridge of. So obviously the ship survived unscathed.

Also if you look you can see the outline of the back of the tower in the glow of the Exectutioners engines in the third image.

[TW Scott]

And as for your desire for redefinitions...

What's more dangerous to fly into? A Neutron Star or a Red Giant?

Our current level of technology, both would be equally dangerous.

What's going to do more damage to you - a 30mm PGU-13/B High Explosive Incendiary (which weighs 12 oz) fired from a GAU-8 Avenger, which puts it at roughly 3,500 ft/second, or a civil-war era cannon firing a 32 pound solid-shot projectile that's moving at roughly 750 ft/sec?

Depend on the target. if fired a person the 30mm shel would just blow a 30mm hole through them. In some parts of the body very survivable. Meanwhile the cannon ball will shatter many bones and rupture man organs thanks to it''s large size.

However you are still barking up wrong tree. You are comparing the technology the wrong way smaller =/= better either.

What's going to produce more energy - a 1 sq mile nuclear power plant, or a 50 sq mile coal-burning plant, both operating at 100% capacity.

Depends on how they are designed.

What will produce more energy? Annihilating 1 cubic inch of matter with 1 cubic inch of antimatter, or burning 100 thousand cubic inches of oil? This is going by suspension of disbelief - we know for a fact antimatter exists in small quantities, so ignore the fact that currently we can't make that quantity yet. This is also considering that we are using ALL the fuel up as fast as possible.

depends on density of the antimatter if it gaseous hydrogen at 10,000 feet above sea level.....

You have to give weights, works much easier.

[Oli]

Depend on the target. if fired a person the 30mm shel would just blow a 30mm hole through them. In some parts of the body very survivable.

From an HE/I round?
That puts a 1 metre diameter hole in 15mm thick steel and you think that's survivable?

Meanwhile the cannon ball will shatter many bones and rupture man organs thanks to it''s large size.

Unless it merely hits a hand.

[tuberculatious]

I prefer Star Trek.

[fedr808]

And as for your desire for redefinitions...

What's more dangerous to fly into? A Neutron Star or a Red Giant?

What's going to do more damage to you - a 30mm PGU-13/B High Explosive Incendiary (which weighs 12 oz) fired from a GAU-8 Avenger, which puts it at roughly 3,500 ft/second, or a civil-war era cannon firing a 32 pound solid-shot projectile that's moving at roughly 750 ft/sec?

What's going to produce more energy - a 1 sq mile nuclear power plant, or a 50 sq mile coal-burning plant, both operating at 100% capacity.

What will produce more energy? Annihilating 1 cubic inch of matter with 1 cubic inch of antimatter, or burning 100 thousand cubic inches of oil? This is going by suspension of disbelief - we know for a fact antimatter exists in small quantities, so ignore the fact that currently we can't make that quantity yet. This is also considering that we are using ALL the fuel up as fast as possible.

Well for starters the Gau-8 avenger doesnt fire explosive shells nor are they incendiary, they just have a depleted uranium core that adds enough mass to create a significantly larger amount of momentum which translates to more destructive power.

So a 340 gram (12 ounce) gau-8 round moving at 1,066 meters per second, has 363 units of momentum.

A 14.55 kilogram cannon ball moving at around 228.6 meters per second equals around 3,326 units of momentum nearly ten times that of the Gau-8 round.

So in the blunt force category the cannon ball wins by a significant amount. And yes as far as kinetic weaponry goes momentum is the deciding factor of destructive power

[Oli]

Well for starters the Gau-8 avenger doesnt fire explosive shells nor are they incendiary, they just have a depleted uranium core that adds enough mass to create a significantly larger amount of momentum which translates to more destructive power.

Better tell the USAF then, otherwise they could end up doing something wrong.
They think they have HE/I rounds.
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2001gun/Tasson2.pdf
And it's KE that's a measure of destructive power, not momentum.

And yes as far as kinetic weaponry goes momentum is the deciding factor of destructive power

No it isn't.
KE is a better measure.