Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Kittamaru]

Meanwhile hide in a magnetic pole and no federation ship in the universe can find you. untill you do something stupid like use a tractor beam.

*chuckles* Proof or it didn't happen

[TW Scott]

*chuckles* Proof or it didn't happen

In TNG it has been used and noted to be highly successful.

Riker used it in Peak Performance to as part of a ploy to gain a sneak attack against the Enterprise and used it again to hide from the ferengi.

Riker was an accomplished tactician, inventing several strategies while serving aboard various starships. He apparently acquired a reputation for using unorthodox solutions, as Enterprise Second Officer Data estimated he only used traditional tactics 21 percent of the time. In 2365, Riker was given temporary command of the outdated USS Hathaway during a combat exercise to ready for the Borg invasion. The Hathaway was to fight the Enterprise in a simulation designed to test the response of a crew when faced with a substantially superior enemy. Although Riker's crew managed to turn the poorly-maintained Hathaway into something flyable and score several hits against the Enterprise during the initial phases of battle, the test was turned deadly when a Ferengi marauder intervened. The Enterprise believed that the Ferengi were a holographic trick designed to divert attention from the Hathaway, and therefore did not raise shields. The Ferengi opened fire, disabling the Enterprise's weapons and shields. The Ferengi demanded that the Enterprise hand over custody of the Hathaway, as they incorrectly assumed the Hathaway had valuable Federation secrets on board. In order to fool the Ferengi, Riker devised a plan to have the Hathaway jump to warp and hide in a blind spot above the magnetic pole of a planet while the Enterprise fired photon torpedoes, making it appear to the Ferengi as if the Hathaway had been destroyed. Worf then fooled the Ferengi sensors into believing that several Starfleet vessels were on an intercept course, scaring them away. (TNG: "Peak Performance")

Also of note that it has been mentioned in “The Enemy” TNG3 amd “Mudd’s Women” TOS1 that magnetic fields of any kind are disruptive to Federation sensors.

[Kittamaru]

Okay, one problem - you are ASSUMING federation sensors can't see into the magnetic poles... when in reality, they were hiding from the Ferengi... who also "witnessed" the destruction of the Hathaway... because their PASSIVE sensors didn't see it in the magnetic pole (which makes sense to be honest) doesn't mean the active sensors couldn't... nor does it mean the Federation sensor suite couldn't...

In Mudd's Women, the magnetic storms made it difficult to search the surface of a planet... which makes sense as you're scanning THRU the storms and the sensors have to penetrate them both ways...

In "The Enemy", the EM interference made their COMMUNICATORS and TRICORDERS non-functional... it also made transporters dangerous to use due to the fact that they operate IN the EM spectrum...

[Kittamaru]

Finally: in Peak Performance:

At the end of the episode, Picard says "We'll lock on and pick you up"

Ergo, they were easily able to see the Hathaway in the magnetic pole... so yeah,

[Nasor]

Oh, no doubt it was a stupid design... but even WH40K ships have weaknesses that can be exploited - the fact that 1/3 of some ships contain JUST engines... it shows how massive and heavy they are. Destroy a decent portion of a WH40K ship's engine power, and it'll be left helpless

Wow, you really can't resist the urge to spout speculative bullshit that's unsupported by evidence, can you? Maybe the ship is 1/3 engine because it's massively redundant? Maybe it's 1/3 engine because it's able to cross the galaxy quickly, while the federation got a whole show devoted to how their dinky ships take decades to cross the galaxy.

[Kittamaru]

Wow, you really can't resist the urge to spout speculative bullshit that's unsupported by evidence, can you? Maybe the ship is 1/3 engine because it's massively redundant? Maybe it's 1/3 engine because it's able to cross the galaxy quickly, while the federation got a whole show devoted to how their dinky ships take decades to cross the galaxy.

Or maybe it's not speculation, but in the game manual and the wiki

Every Imperial ship is equipped with a plasma drive for normal propulsion through the depths of space. Running up to a third of the ship's length, the aft section is a mass of drive tubes, engine compartments and plasma reactors.

Also, consider this:

Mass to Weapons wise, a Trek ship has FAR more weapons per pound than a WH40K ship... and far more for the volume. Consider all the space wasted for engines, thrusters, fuel, crew quarters, food storage, et al for that MASSIVE WH40K ship...

now consider that a Trek ship doesn't have to deal with food at all (replicators), phasers use no ammo, thrusters and engines are miniscule compared to the size of the ship, and other such things... yeah.

So, stop saying I'm "spouting speculative bullshit"... unlike you, I actually research what I say when I'm not reasonably sure of myself.

K?



Though, I must concede one thing... your ships ARE huge...

[TW Scott]

Okay, one problem - you are ASSUMING federation sensors can't see into the magnetic poles... when in reality, they were hiding from the Ferengi... who also "witnessed" the destruction of the Hathaway... because their PASSIVE sensors didn't see it in the magnetic pole (which makes sense to be honest) doesn't mean the active sensors couldn't... nor does it mean the Federation sensor suite couldn't...

In Mudd's Women, the magnetic storms made it difficult to search the surface of a planet... which makes sense as you're scanning THRU the storms and the sensors have to penetrate them both ways...

In "The Enemy", the EM interference made their COMMUNICATORS and TRICORDERS non-functional... it also made transporters dangerous to use due to the fact that they operate IN the EM spectrum...

Okay, what you aren't getting is that before Riker hid in the pole from the Ferengi he had done it from the Enterprise as well earning him a few hits on the Enterprises rear shields. The Enterpise had been on active serach and could not find the vessel and then was distracted by Worf's sensor distortion battle Cruiser. Hell he borrowed a tactic used against the Tholians whose sensor suites are on par if not superior to Federation suites. Then Riker initiated a warp jump precisely timed wiht some Photon otrped explosion to make it look like he was destroyed and to reappear in the magnetic pole where the Ferengi's active sensors (as they were locked on to both vessels) missed it completely. Hell even the Enterpirse was not sure where the Hathaway was and for a moment thought the Federation vessels the Feregi were concerned about might be the Hathaway instead of Worf's little tricks.

[TW Scott]

Finally: in Peak Performance:

At the end of the episode, Picard says "We'll lock on and pick you up"

Ergo, they were easily able to see the Hathaway in the magnetic pole... so yeah,

Becuase Riker had communicated to the Galaxy class crusier alerting it to his presense. Don't be so niave

[TW Scott]

Or maybe it's not speculation, but in the game manual and the wiki



Also, consider this:

Mass to Weapons wise, a Trek ship has FAR more weapons per pound than a WH40K ship... and far more for the volume. Consider all the space wasted for engines, thrusters, fuel, crew quarters, food storage, et al for that MASSIVE WH40K ship...

now consider that a Trek ship doesn't have to deal with food at all (replicators), phasers use no ammo, thrusters and engines are miniscule compared to the size of the ship, and other such things... yeah.

So, stop saying I'm "spouting speculative bullshit"... unlike you, I actually research what I say when I'm not reasonably sure of myself.

K?



Though, I must concede one thing... your ships ARE huge...

Weapons per pound? That might mean something if the vessels were anywhare near equal size. I mean if a 4 million pound vessel had twice the weapons per pound of a 6 million pound vessel, sure it might mean something,

The again what if the 600 million pounder has larger more powerful weapons, heavier shields and armor?

What if you have all those weapons but weren;t able to move and fire at the same time?

What if all your weapons are point defense and his anti capital starship weapons?

What if your weapons are short range and powerful, and his are long range?


There are many, many, many factors to consider here.

[Lord Vasago]

Though, I must concede one thing... your ships ARE huge...

this is rediculous. if that comparrison where true that ships has cannons of 500m long. that skull on top would be 1km and there are statues of several km high. and all those windows.

[antaran_1979]

As for what Star Wars gave us: Droids. Yes, I know robots were around before Star Trek and that some of them were quite cool. However before Star Trek a Robot had to be good for as multitude of things and was almost always bipedal. Star Trek gave us R2-D2 and mouse droids. Robots whose shap was decidedly not humanoid, and were more for their function.

After all does a starship mechanic need to be humanoid when he has all sorts of extra robotic arms and tools? Does a messenger droid need top look like anything more and remote control van? Or how about the interrogation droid whose nonhuman floating appearance helps intimidate prisoners. Star Wrs made it fashionable and desirable for robots to have form follow function. I mean look at the floor sweeper robots or the robot lawnmowers.

Finally, the Android Data can thank his existance in part to C-3PO. You will note they even have some of the same speaking patterns. Though even C-3PO showed more emotion than Data ever did.

i think Data owes his existance to Isaac Asimov, oh ye nerds. start reading some real SF, not fan fiction

[antaran_1979]

Also, when kitt implied using site to site transportation as a weapon. I stated that im sure that transportation takes a few seconds and so long as the individual is visible he can be shot and killed even if he's nearly gone. I found proof. ST-E episode countdown, Major Hayes was shot and killed in the middle of transportation by a weapon that merely injured his comrade.

meh, 100 years later Kirk and Bones were shot while still in transport on that ice moon and survived without a scratch

[antaran_1979]

Actally I kinda like what they have done with Transformers movie wise now, hated that they made Megatron so flipping powerfuland gimped Optimus, but movie wise it rocked.

Pokemon always sucked and so did most disney shows.

But honestly there is much better scifi out there. Battle Star Galactica. reruns of Babylon 5, if you can get ahold of it Dvd of Farscape (blows all of ST right out of the water), and a must buy the complete series of Firefly.

i can agree on BSG and Firefly, but the rest? nah. Farscape was ok-ish but nowhere near TNG or DS9. even the meek Voyager was close to Farscape. Babylon 5 was...well.. i did try to wach that show on noumerous times, but i just can't get past season 1. i'll give it another go this summer

[antaran_1979]

It's a matter of opinion I guess, but many of TOS episodes were just farcically bad. Half of the episodes seem to be based around reusing sets and props from other TV shows of the time in order to save money, so they came up with ridiculous plots like Nazi Planet, Roman Planet, Gangster Planet, etc. You could tell that even the show's own writers weren't taking it seriously. Even the "good" episodes of TOS are usually just mediocre compared to modern shows like BSG or Firefly.

i agree. to me TOS has the same problems B5 has. i just can't get pass the 1st season.

[antaran_1979]

Unfortunately the Admiralty is NOT the British public.
Many things have done by officialdom that have not leaked down to public awareness.
Official recognition is one thing: public recognition is another.
Enterprise (as a US warship) is very low on the recognition list for the public in the UK.
Enterprise (from Trek) is almost universally known.
Citations mean nothing: most of the general public couldn't name two VC holders (the highest British award for bravery) so why would you think that a foreign vessel that garnered official recognition would be known?
Especially with such a little-known award as the Pennant.

(Unless you thought I was talking personally - yes I am aware of the Enterprise - it was an American warship that did some stuff . But it wasn't one of ours).
How aware is the average American of the KGV, PoW, Hood, Barham, Ark Royal?
Ark Royal is probably the most famous warship name in the UK, with maybe Hermes high on the list as well.
TW Scott's comment was plain nonsense.

you are so right. i live in the backdoor of Europe and all these ships are known to me only because WW2 is one of my major interest. 99 out of 100 people here never even heard of the Hood.

[antaran_1979]

Missing the point again?
You don't count since you were aware of the question for a period of time and you're sat in front of a PC...
Now I'm NOT saying you googled it: but the fact that you could have done eliminates you from the "survey".
It shouldn't be too hard to understand...

[antaran_1979]

happy Easter everyone, may the force be with you

[Nasor]

Or maybe it's not speculation, but in the game manual and the wiki

The "speculative bullshit" part was your assumption that 40k ships would be crippled if they lost a fraction of their engines.

Federation ships wouldn't even be able to keep up with 40k ships, or SW ships for that matter. Both 40k and SW have FTL engines that are orders of magnitude better. I can see it now; the Imperium sends a thousand ships to attack a Federation world. The Federation assembles a huge fleet to oppose them. Then, rather than attacking that world, the 40k fleet just jumps to another one and has days to pillage it before the federation ships can even get there. When the mighty Federation fleet finally arrives, the 40k fleet just jumps back to the original planet and toasts that one too.

You can't defend yourself with a fleet when the enemy is faster than you, because your enemy can always just go attack somewhere other than where your fleet currently is. The only alternative is to spread your fleet thinly, in which case you always have just a few ships facing a large fleet.

And if the Federation actually manages to win against the first thousand ships, well, just sent another thousand, or ten thousand, or however many you like...we have many millions.

So, stop saying I'm "spouting speculative bullshit"... unlike you, I actually research what I say when I'm not reasonably sure of myself.

I'll stop saying that you're spouting speculative bullshit when you stop spouting speculative bullshit. And it's ironic beyond belief that you say "unlike you, I actually research what I say" when you've been making up one bullshit "fact" after another in this thread. Weren't you the one who denied that the 40k imperium has many millions of warships? Weren't you the one who kept insisting over and over that the feds got a can of Sorin's missile at Amagosia, uh, I mean Veridian III, uh, I mean...uh...the dialog shows they understand trilithium can destroy stars...oh, it doesn't? Uh...well...uh....

Those are just the first few examples that come to mind, I'm sure there's plenty more of your bullshit littered throughout the thread.

[Nasor]

this is rediculous. if that comparrison where true that ships has cannons of 500m long. that skull on top would be 1km and there are statues of several km high. and all those windows.

As I recall the largest 40k ships are in the 8 km neighborhood. If the SD is 1 km along its long axis, that comparison might be about right.

[Kittamaru]

Okay, what you aren't getting is that before Riker hid in the pole from the Ferengi he had done it from the Enterprise as well earning him a few hits on the Enterprises rear shields. The Enterpise had been on active serach and could not find the vessel and then was distracted by Worf's sensor distortion battle Cruiser. Hell he borrowed a tactic used against the Tholians whose sensor suites are on par if not superior to Federation suites. Then Riker initiated a warp jump precisely timed wiht some Photon otrped explosion to make it look like he was destroyed and to reappear in the magnetic pole where the Ferengi's active sensors (as they were locked on to both vessels) missed it completely. Hell even the Enterpirse was not sure where the Hathaway was and for a moment thought the Federation vessels the Feregi were concerned about might be the Hathaway instead of Worf's little tricks.

Uh, you DO realize that Worf used the enterprise's lockout codes to trick their sensors... in other words, he hacked into their fucking computer and TOLD IT what to say...

And no, the ferengi weren't using active sensors... they had locked onto the Enterprise as that was the immediate threat. They alread knew the Hathaway had no weapons, and already detected it had no anti-matter stores and thus no warp capability... which you'd realize they SAID if you watched the actual episode

You are wrong scott... as usual. Get over it.