Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Lord Vasago]

hmm, 2 well placed shots were enough to send the DSs to the kingdom come

indeed but they know the weakspot now so it's fair to say they have fixed that problem.

[Lord Vasago]

Not really... that's like saying a modern-day battlecruiser (we don't have any real Battleships anymore) is always at tactical-station 24/7...

Kitt in ST when there is a encounter you allways hear Picard say "shields up, open hail frequencies' if it is a standard procedure why doesn't Worf do this automaticly??? that's right he awaits orders.

as for battlecruisers. if you are in a possible hostile enviroment it would be logical to be prepared for a attack. I bet the cruisers in the golf are tactical 24/7. or atleast one of the ships in the fleet

[Lord Vasago]

what don't understand is why you keep defending fed ships when the Scimitar was just superior Kitt. it is ST vs SW and i never saw you use the Scimitar as a advantage. is it because it makes your beloved Feds look bad ????

except for that youtube clip i never saw the prometeus in action but i rather use that one and the scimitar in a fight than the enterprise-e.

[antaran_1979]

this is what i saying all along, it wouldn't be long before either side has al the tech of the otherside. in the end it wil be numbers, sheer numbers.

aye, one captured or stranded ship on eighter side and the tech differences would blend rapidly.

[antaran_1979]

indeed but they know the weakspot now so it's fair to say they have fixed that problem.

i was referencing the second DS too. coincidently they fired 2 shots at it too

[Lord Vasago]

i was referencing the second DS too. coincidently they fired 2 shots at it too

i know but the Millenium Falcon did fire straight at the core not through a exhaust vent. If the shields we're up they wouldn't have had that oppertunity.
but then again it's just onscreen bling bling i suppose. hell with the rockets the military uses today they could have done the trick as easily. as there we're no defence mecanisms inside the ds.
but the ds is quiet some piece of technology if without shields it can withstand a coalission with a SSD without severe damage. so it won't be a easy job destroying it.

[Lord Vasago]

aye, one captured or stranded ship on eighter side and the tech differences would blend rapidly.

si in the end the winner will be the one with the best building faccilities and the most species to fly the ships. it will be a massacre with trillions of lives lost.

[antaran_1979]

what don't understand is why you keep defending fed ships when the Scimitar was just superior Kitt. it is ST vs SW and i never saw you use the Scimitar as a advantage. is it because it makes your beloved Feds look bad ????

except for that youtube clip i never saw the prometeus in action but i rather use that one and the scimitar in a fight than the enterprise-e.

my guess would be that maybe cause the Sovereign is one of the favorite designs in ST fandom. i know it is one of my favorite designs. but the Scimitar was just plain superiror in most aspects. as for what new ship woul be best to fight the Scimitar? tough question that, i'll try to give a lenghtly answer:

the Defiant is powerful but small, it fills the role of heavy escort (destroyer) for the fleet. the term destroyer is misleading though, since the phaser firepower alone outguns the Galaxy in ratio of at least 1.2:1, probably more.
however its survivablity is lower because of its size and the mision durations are low because of the small storage space.

the Prometheus is a Deterence Cruiser, or in modern navy terms, missile or AEGIS cruiser. heavy firepower, state of the art tech, expensive but more cost eficient then a battlecruiser or battleship. this would be the ship you'd rely on most in peace time conditions for the power projection missions. it is reliable, sturdy, survivable, fast and can kick like a mule.

the Sovereign is the proto battlecruiser of the feds, allthough the level of structural integrity makes it more like modern/fast battleship. strong shielding, heavy firepower, long mission duration, tough as a brick and on top of it very expensive. probably a hell to maintain. very agile for its size, especially compared to Galaxy or Nebula classes.

if you take these designs into acount, it is aperant they are ment for different purposes. it is safe to assume that each ship can beat the smaller in one on one engagement. however when fighting a big invisible gun platform you need brains. since brains is what science fiction rarely demonstates on television (new BSG excluded), you need multiple weapon deployments and survivabilty (target dispersion). you must buy your self time by presenting the enemy with more targets to shoot at while presenting as many mobile gun placements as possible. this is what the MVAM mode of Prometheus does and what makes it he best candidate for fighting (although not defeating) the Scimitar. having 3 ships in the place of one is always a godd idea when outguned. after all those 57 disruptors need to be kept buisy, and triangulating weapon impacts seams the only way the silly feds can hit an invisble ship the size of a small battlestation.

[antaran_1979]

i know but the Millenium Falcon did fire straight at the core not through a exhaust vent. If the shields we're up they wouldn't have had that oppertunity.
but then again it's just onscreen bling bling i suppose. hell with the rockets the military uses today they could have done the trick as easily. as there we're no defence mecanisms inside the ds.
but the ds is quiet some piece of technology if without shields it can withstand a coalission with a SSD without severe damage. so it won't be a easy job destroying it.

there is no way of destroying a DS with direct weapons fire that i can think of (aside from abother DS). trasphasic torpedoes maybe, programed to phase out near the core? but that is not a direct fire isn't it? ramming is useless. maybe toss a black hole at it lol. now if only we can find a black hole shop around. and something to toss it with

[fedr808]

the ds is ftl dude, it travelled farther in an hour the ST does in a year.
and don't forget they always can build several more.
Now that would be nice wouldn't it. Taking out al important races their homeplanet is a few minutes. except those who still deepdown have a grudge for the ufp. they would be joining fast.

Well for one thing ftl drives are a lot different than stl drives, and the stl drives on the DS are not very good. And also, building the death star took a ton of time, in several years after the first one was destroyed, the second was only somewhat complete.

Anyways nobody really knows what the rate of fire on said superlaser is.

And to be honest WH40k has already destroyed a battlestation much more lethal than the deathstar.

It is called the world engine, created by the necrons, wether it was a planet tranformed to be a star ship, or just a massive star ship is still unknown. But it was easily the size of a planet. No munition could pass through the supermassive shield and no squad could teleport through, and unlike the death star, it was packed with anti ship weaponry so it took on and destroyed fleets of enemy warships single handedly, and second, it's shields resisted solid objects too.

In the end, the Astral Knights space marine chapter all boarded one of their battlebarges and rammed the shield, as a testament to the strength of the barge's shields and the durability of it's armor, it made it through the shield, the barge was doomed, but the space mariens had already boarded their drop pods and thunderhawks and were already on the surface by the time their ship hit the world engine. Through many daring raids, the last 5 space mariens of the chapter disabled the shield and in their last breath destroyed a score of the necron horde.

After that 15 space marine chapters and their star fleets showed up and destroyed the world engine through an apocalyptic orbital barrage. It is a rare day that 15 chapters fight under one campaign, and the show of force is infinitely powerful and there is no force in the universe that can challenge their might.

[antaran_1979]

si in the end the winner will be the one with the best building faccilities and the most species to fly the ships. it will be a massacre with trillions of lives lost.

no easy win for eighter side. once i tried to determine the parameters of such an engagement, i.e. how much of X of ST would nead to take out Y of SW and vice versa. i even started modding the bridge commander to pit and ISD vs a GCS, using only onscreen visible weapons placemets and firepower. i am still only half way through. you can't begin to fathom how dificult it is to script all those turbo laser turets and phaser arays

[Kittamaru]

hmm, 2 well placed shots were enough to send the DSs to the kingdom come

I thought he was talking about the Scimitar taking the Ent-E out of warp in the first few hits. We have too many side conversations going on here

[Kittamaru]

Hyperspace is an alternative dimension above our own space where the laws of nature don't apply

But you don't enter it... because if you did relativity would not apply, and thus the stars would not blue shift around you...

as subspace is an alternative dimension below our own space.

Not really... warp is more about bending the universe than moving into another dimension

multiverse is the theory that for every event that has multiple outcoms for every outcome there is a parrarrel univers.
so in theory you could travel in a dimention where the bigbang didn't happen yet. or you could be in a dimension where your galaxy is very much smaller than your own.
tthe point is that it's a theory. no-one has ever been to a other dimension. it's sci-fi even stephen king uses an other dimension in one of his books where a boy switches between his own and the other dimension but in the other dimension travelling goes much faster. If he walks 100meters in the other dimension and swithches back he'd travelled almost 1km in our own.

True multiverse theory (of multiple dimensions) implies that every universe is similar to ours with some differences - the more "steps" away from our universe, the more differences. One of the biggest differences, though, is the apparent time the other universes are at. Time travels the same pace and all multiverses are the same "size" relatively, so how in the world would that work?

buh

[Kittamaru]

excuse me but that is one of the q's. Q's are pretty racists in my eyes.
they are at civil war because of the Janeway incident. with a possible outcome of the univers being destroyed whiping out humanity i don't find that having a vested intrest in humanity. but indeed there is one who thinks of humans as toys. but what if he gets a new toy????

Er... no... Janeway helped END the Q Civil War by convincing Q and Q to have a kid, q... and Q wanted to mate with Janeway first...

Plus Q owes Picard (and he even said he did) for saving his life.

PLUS Q has consistently been shown to help guide Picard (and to a smaller extent, Janeway) when their own knowledge failed or when they got "too big for their britches".

[Kittamaru]

Kitt in ST when there is a encounter you allways hear Picard say "shields up, open hail frequencies' if it is a standard procedure why doesn't Worf do this automaticly??? that's right he awaits orders.

The reason for it is the Ent-D wasn't a pure combat vessel... if you meet a new race for the first time, you simply don't go running in shields up an weapons hot... that looks far too aggressive. No, you make a diplomatic encounter. Now, standard procedure for first-contacts is yellow alert (shields up, weapons on standby) but Picard has a habit of not following procedure... as you well know

as for battlecruisers. if you are in a possible hostile enviroment it would be logical to be prepared for a attack. I bet the cruisers in the golf are tactical 24/7. or atleast one of the ships in the fleet

Not really - their radar / conn / sonar are on tactical alert (bridge crew) but the rest of the ship isn't... you can't keep the crew at tactical alert for more than a week or two before it really starts to wear them out...

[Kittamaru]

what don't understand is why you keep defending fed ships when the Scimitar was just superior Kitt. it is ST vs SW and i never saw you use the Scimitar as a advantage. is it because it makes your beloved Feds look bad ????

except for that youtube clip i never saw the prometeus in action but i rather use that one and the scimitar in a fight than the enterprise-e.

I've been going Federation vs Empire for the most part as we know more about the Fed technology...

And again, the Scimitar beat up on the Ent-E so badly because of 4 key points:

1) The Enterprise was holding station of Romulus for a very long period of time - Diana could sense that Schinzon was there, but while they were cloaked the Enterprise couldn't detect him. Thus, he had all the time in the world to scan the Enterprise, especially as Picard hadn't yet gone to yellow or red alert, nor raised shields.

2) With B4 on board, Schinzon had some info he shouldn't have - they mentioned it was transmitted all over the ship and that MOST of the data wasn't classified... who knows what all he sent over.

3) The Enterprise got bitch-slapped mid-warp by a salvo of photon torpedo fire that would have blown many vessels apart at the seams. Her warp core was taken offline almost immediately, leaving her running on backup and auxilliary power only... not enough to fully utilize the phaser systems to their utmost and not enough to run the backup shield systems for the Regenerative Shielding.

4) The Scimitar was a predator, built to capture Picard, destroy the Enterprise, and then go obliterate Earth with the Thalaron weapon... not unlike your Death Star, but far, far more tactically useful. Oh, and without the Thermal Exhaust Port

[Kittamaru]

i know but the Millenium Falcon did fire straight at the core not through a exhaust vent. If the shields we're up they wouldn't have had that oppertunity.
but then again it's just onscreen bling bling i suppose. hell with the rockets the military uses today they could have done the trick as easily. as there we're no defence mecanisms inside the ds.
but the ds is quiet some piece of technology if without shields it can withstand a coalission with a SSD without severe damage. so it won't be a easy job destroying it.

Sure it would - Transphasic Torpedo to the engine core

[Kittamaru]

my guess would be that maybe cause the Sovereign is one of the favorite designs in ST fandom. i know it is one of my favorite designs. but the Scimitar was just plain superiror in most aspects. as for what new ship woul be best to fight the Scimitar? tough question that, i'll try to give a lenghtly answer:

the Defiant is powerful but small, it fills the role of heavy escort (destroyer) for the fleet. the term destroyer is misleading though, since the phaser firepower alone outguns the Galaxy in ratio of at least 1.2:1, probably more.
however its survivablity is lower because of its size and the mision durations are low because of the small storage space.

the Prometheus is a Deterence Cruiser, or in modern navy terms, missile or AEGIS cruiser. heavy firepower, state of the art tech, expensive but more cost eficient then a battlecruiser or battleship. this would be the ship you'd rely on most in peace time conditions for the power projection missions. it is reliable, sturdy, survivable, fast and can kick like a mule.

the Sovereign is the proto battlecruiser of the feds, allthough the level of structural integrity makes it more like modern/fast battleship. strong shielding, heavy firepower, long mission duration, tough as a brick and on top of it very expensive. probably a hell to maintain. very agile for its size, especially compared to Galaxy or Nebula classes.

if you take these designs into acount, it is aperant they are ment for different purposes. it is safe to assume that each ship can beat the smaller in one on one engagement. however when fighting a big invisible gun platform you need brains. since brains is what science fiction rarely demonstates on television (new BSG excluded), you need multiple weapon deployments and survivabilty (target dispersion). you must buy your self time by presenting the enemy with more targets to shoot at while presenting as many mobile gun placements as possible. this is what the MVAM mode of Prometheus does and what makes it he best candidate for fighting (although not defeating) the Scimitar. having 3 ships in the place of one is always a godd idea when outguned. after all those 57 disruptors need to be kept buisy, and triangulating weapon impacts seams the only way the silly feds can hit an invisble ship the size of a small battlestation.

Remember, that invisible ship the size of a small battlestation is moving at almost half the speed of light at impulse, if not faster...

[Kittamaru]

there is no way of destroying a DS with direct weapons fire that i can think of (aside from abother DS). trasphasic torpedoes maybe, programed to phase out near the core? but that is not a direct fire isn't it? ramming is useless. maybe toss a black hole at it lol. now if only we can find a black hole shop around. and something to toss it with

Actually, I would reckon a concentrated phaser strike from 1-2 sovereign class starships would do it - it'd be like drilling thru the Death Star to the Core and *boom*

Case in point - in Star trek, we have seen the ability for multiple ships to concentrate firepower on a single spot (First Contact for example). We never saw that in Star Wars... they just shoot AT something as much and as often as possible and hope to god it blows up before they do... if a fleet of a dozen or so ships hits the exact same point on the Death Star in quick succession (within 5 seconds) with both rapid, sustained phaser strikes (full power) and photon and quantum torpedo barrages... I doubt there would be much LEFT of that location... you'd have a small crater there. Rinse, repeat, and soon yer hitting the core

[fedr808]

I'll be honest with you guys, considering the power requirements of the planet destroying weapons, i doubt they have a decent rate of fire.