Star Wars vs Star Trek

[antaran_1979]

And one more thing you all have inspired me to research the different classes of Star Trek ships. Can someone confirm for me if there is infact a ship named the boseman? I use the names for the computers on my network. thanks

indeed there is a ship called Boseman, Picard and Data mention it while tracking the energy ribon in Generations. i don't know the class though

[Enterprise-D]

There was the episode "Cause and Effect" where the Soyuz-class Bozeman escaped a temporal anomaly only to trap Enterprise-D with themselves when they collided. It was captained by Dr. Frasier Crane (in case you guys didn't notice ).

PS: Good idea on the naming convention

[Hellblade8]

The Bozeman was also mentioned in First Contact and one of the voices during the inital fight heard over the intercomm before the Borg hi-jacked it was Frasier Crane's. It is unknown if he managed to survive the battle, but it is worth noting that we didn't see a Soyuz class starship during that time.

Of course, I doubt that they'd have kept such a ship in service, since the ship was apparently retired. Probably gave the guy another starship I hope.

Back to the issue of fleet engagements...

The Clone Wars has already given us some interesting battles including warships, mostly their rather poor aiming capabilities and their sluggish movement. To explain this, it is likely that they were going for the hope of tossing out a great deal of fire in order to hit, rather than nice accurate shots. We also see that during engagements, their shields don't hold very long in repelling fire. In Downfall of a Droid, after just a few shots, one Venator was crippled and later shown to have been destroyed. The frigates in that instance weren't much better, as the Venator's forward guns (ie, not the the HTLs on her side) hit and even damaged the frigates even when they had their forward shields double fronted for maximum protection.

Working this in, we can reasonably guess that Imperial battle doctarines are similar in style. The difference is of course, power. The Venators at best had a broadside of 167.2 petajoules just from her HTLs. An impressive number and combined with her refire, you can quickly get double the number...even tripple. The problem lies in the amount of accuracy the ships displayed; it took about four to six shots for her to lock onto a target and the turrets have displayed other poor moments when they were bombarding the Malevolence in Destroy Malevolence. We see Kenobi ordering a full volley on the unprotected bridge...and save for a couple hits...they were all misses. There were three Venators. Assuming they had enough time for only one volley (which is bullocks, they clearly had 3+), that's 24 shot...well. That means that at least 20 shots, all the others missed. That accuracy rating is pathetic. The Malevolence's size rivaled the executor (it was about 8 km long), wasn't performing any evasive manuvers, and the ship's forward engines were in fact, shutting down. In fact, the ending scene of Shadow of Malevolence gave us those same Venators missing horribly. As in about a few hundred meters.

This coupled with the fact that the Clone Army only numbered to about 2 million at most, suggsting that the clones had a fleet size of about 20,000 Venator level starships. More likely we're looking at about 14,000 Venators and about another 10,000 to 14,000 warships including smaller cruisers like the Accumaltors and the Blockade Runners (I believe it was the one in Ambush), with a few odd and end warships. Now, it isn't a secret that the Empire is at least twice as larger, so logically that would at least double our numbers from 24,000 starships to about 48,000 starships without so much as blinking, also doubling our Storm Troopers to about four million. However, it is also worth noting that the Empire is an occupational power that rules through fear. That suggests that a much larger military force might be required. However, this doesn't exactly indicate a larger fleet, since most occupational forces would only need to be planetary with small shuttles or bases at best. At most, the Empire probably has about 48,000 starships, with about 28,800 or so being ISDs.

Now, don't get me wrong, that is an impressive number, about nearly five times larger than the fleet that the Federation keeps...but it isn't that easy. You see, the Empire requires that they need to keep a great deal of their military in their own territory to keep the rebel menace down and the citizens in line. Assuming the Emperor takes a little gamble and keeps only 10% (4,800) of his ships to keep everyone in check at acceptable levels, that's 43,200 warships.

But now we get to the main dishes; an ISD's volley doesn't jump much higher than 543.4 petajoules (130 megatons). NX ships in the 22nd century in Star Trek had 51 megaton photon torpedoes...and it's rather reasonable to assume that TNG+ ships are at least double that yield. That's about 102 megatons. Reasonably fair. Now let's compare the ISD (a heavy cruiser) to something compared to say, a Nebula class and a Intrepid class.

The Nebula has six launchers. Assuming a full volley from just that, it ranges in the range of 306-612 megaton range. That's over five times stronger than what an ISD can put out. Even worse is that the broadsiding method of ISDs would indicate that only half of that energy can be utilized for one target...and when you account for the accury of SDs in general...well...the result is rather less than that. The only thing that might save them is the rate of refire...but even that is rather depresssing.

In other words, the UFP can probably take five to one odds because their kill ratio is probably about five to one. That isn't even including allies such as the Klingons and Romulans as well as systems with defensive capabilities such as starbases and the like.

In short, the Federation and their allies are simply too difficult for the Empire to invade. ST ships move much more swiftly in battle with stronger and more accurate weapons. Then add in the technological disparity, greater all around competency, and not having a group of rebels trying to topple you, the Federation is more than game for such a match.

[fedr808]

And remember species 8472, we know they used Bio ships, but when you think about it, we enever saw many of them, but those ships can be grown and that means that they would grow as many as they ever need.

In theory the same time it takes to grow one clone, you could create a ship that could destroy a frigate.

[Hellblade8]

And remember species 8472, we know they used Bio ships, but when you think about it, we enever saw many of them, but those ships can be grown and that means that they would grow as many as they ever need.

In theory the same time it takes to grow one clone, you could create a ship that could destroy a frigate.

It took three days for a Jem'Hadar clone to be ready, compared to the ten years that it would take to make a clone trooper. 8472 is hopefully steps and bounds ahead of the Dominion in that manner.

[FoolFromHell]

hey guys! im back. I lost track of this because of work, etc.

Whats the update? TW Scott still being a pain in the ass?

[Lord Vasago]

The Bozeman was also mentioned in First Contact and one of the voices during the inital fight heard over the intercomm before the Borg hi-jacked it was Frasier Crane's. It is unknown if he managed to survive the battle, but it is worth noting that we didn't see a Soyuz class starship during that time.

Of course, I doubt that they'd have kept such a ship in service, since the ship was apparently retired. Probably gave the guy another starship I hope.

Back to the issue of fleet engagements...

The Clone Wars has already given us some interesting battles including warships, mostly their rather poor aiming capabilities and their sluggish movement. To explain this, it is likely that they were going for the hope of tossing out a great deal of fire in order to hit, rather than nice accurate shots. We also see that during engagements, their shields don't hold very long in repelling fire. In Downfall of a Droid, after just a few shots, one Venator was crippled and later shown to have been destroyed. The frigates in that instance weren't much better, as the Venator's forward guns (ie, not the the HTLs on her side) hit and even damaged the frigates even when they had their forward shields double fronted for maximum protection.

Working this in, we can reasonably guess that Imperial battle doctarines are similar in style. The difference is of course, power. The Venators at best had a broadside of 167.2 petajoules just from her HTLs. An impressive number and combined with her refire, you can quickly get double the number...even tripple. The problem lies in the amount of accuracy the ships displayed; it took about four to six shots for her to lock onto a target and the turrets have displayed other poor moments when they were bombarding the Malevolence in Destroy Malevolence. We see Kenobi ordering a full volley on the unprotected bridge...and save for a couple hits...they were all misses. There were three Venators. Assuming they had enough time for only one volley (which is bullocks, they clearly had 3+), that's 24 shot...well. That means that at least 20 shots, all the others missed. That accuracy rating is pathetic. The Malevolence's size rivaled the executor (it was about 8 km long), wasn't performing any evasive manuvers, and the ship's forward engines were in fact, shutting down. In fact, the ending scene of Shadow of Malevolence gave us those same Venators missing horribly. As in about a few hundred meters.

This coupled with the fact that the Clone Army only numbered to about 2 million at most, suggsting that the clones had a fleet size of about 20,000 Venator level starships. More likely we're looking at about 14,000 Venators and about another 10,000 to 14,000 warships including smaller cruisers like the Accumaltors and the Blockade Runners (I believe it was the one in Ambush), with a few odd and end warships. Now, it isn't a secret that the Empire is at least twice as larger, so logically that would at least double our numbers from 24,000 starships to about 48,000 starships without so much as blinking, also doubling our Storm Troopers to about four million. However, it is also worth noting that the Empire is an occupational power that rules through fear. That suggests that a much larger military force might be required. However, this doesn't exactly indicate a larger fleet, since most occupational forces would only need to be planetary with small shuttles or bases at best. At most, the Empire probably has about 48,000 starships, with about 28,800 or so being ISDs.

Now, don't get me wrong, that is an impressive number, about nearly five times larger than the fleet that the Federation keeps...but it isn't that easy. You see, the Empire requires that they need to keep a great deal of their military in their own territory to keep the rebel menace down and the citizens in line. Assuming the Emperor takes a little gamble and keeps only 10% (4,800) of his ships to keep everyone in check at acceptable levels, that's 43,200 warships.

But now we get to the main dishes; an ISD's volley doesn't jump much higher than 543.4 petajoules (130 megatons). NX ships in the 22nd century in Star Trek had 51 megaton photon torpedoes...and it's rather reasonable to assume that TNG+ ships are at least double that yield. That's about 102 megatons. Reasonably fair. Now let's compare the ISD (a heavy cruiser) to something compared to say, a Nebula class and a Intrepid class.

The Nebula has six launchers. Assuming a full volley from just that, it ranges in the range of 306-612 megaton range. That's over five times stronger than what an ISD can put out. Even worse is that the broadsiding method of ISDs would indicate that only half of that energy can be utilized for one target...and when you account for the accury of SDs in general...well...the result is rather less than that. The only thing that might save them is the rate of refire...but even that is rather depresssing.

In other words, the UFP can probably take five to one odds because their kill ratio is probably about five to one. That isn't even including allies such as the Klingons and Romulans as well as systems with defensive capabilities such as starbases and the like.

In short, the Federation and their allies are simply too difficult for the Empire to invade. ST ships move much more swiftly in battle with stronger and more accurate weapons. Then add in the technological disparity, greater all around competency, and not having a group of rebels trying to topple you, the Federation is more than game for such a match.

allthough your are wright keep in mind that a isd had allways a lot of targets. if you have like say hundred xwings to target or one Galaxy they would be a lot more accurate because one ship moves in one direction so you can allign your weapons.

second it is ST vs SW so you have to look at rebels and Empire as allies.
otherwise de dominion, borg, species8,,, will fight against the feds. hell even the ferengi will sell out the feds for the money the empire trows at them.
Romulans and Cardasians will happily join against the feds.

we better stick to ST vs SW i guess lol

[Lord Vasago]

And remember species 8472, we know they used Bio ships, but when you think about it, we enever saw many of them, but those ships can be grown and that means that they would grow as many as they ever need.

In theory the same time it takes to grow one clone, you could create a ship that could destroy a frigate.

hmmmmmmmmm some flesh-eating virus will come inhandy lmao

[Lord Vasago]

hey guys! im back. I lost track of this because of work, etc.

Whats the update? TW Scott still being a pain in the ass?

good to have you back

[Hellblade8]

allthough your are wright keep in mind that a isd had allways a lot of targets. if you have like say hundred xwings to target or one Galaxy they would be a lot more accurate because one ship moves in one direction so you can allign your weapons.

The problem is that the Venators were targeting one massive target in the Malevolence arch. Their initial volley was full of misses and their assault on the bridge was just pathetic. Hopefully, we will see an increase in their aim.

second it is ST vs SW so you have to look at rebels and Empire as allies.
otherwise de dominion, borg, species8,,, will fight against the feds. hell even the ferengi will sell out the feds for the money the empire trows at them.
Romulans and Cardasians will happily join against the feds.

Actually, the Dominion would just sit back and watch; they have no vested interest in attacking either because in any case, a potential enemy would win. The Empire would be the one they in fact, would care not to win, as with UFP tech they'd become a juggernaught. The Borg probably wouldn't care either way, but would really also take an interest in the Empire's technology as well, so either side takes a hit. The difference is that the UFP is more prepared for it. And finally, 8472 has a non-agression pact set up with Janeway. They'd have no reason to attack.

[Tnerb]

Kittamaru:

You are right with your post 5-8 pages back, when you mentioned the fact that Star Treck would obliverate Star Wars according to ships alone, etc etc. There is no chance for Star Wars there, period.

Factoring in the use of force powers/etc of Star Wars is also irrelevant, to a degree. Grand Admiral Thrawn, etc, also Palpatine and his use of Force Powers, it is a stand up when this is thrown in. The force powers of this could obliverate perhaps the borg cube.

But then again Q has the power to mistify and obliverate/destroy whatever he so pleases so if the star wars universe is using its full power in the darkside and the force powers (undoubtedly the lightside would "join" the empire in their fight to destroy ST), Star Treck may as well have Q pop his head in right?

It is a condition where there are no rules, and in no case is there any victory without deciding rules. I do wonder if one person can state the rules.

If all of the sudden (here is my case), we have the ST universe and their comming upon the STAR WARS universe (an undiscovered universe hiding out in space that has not been found ever),

They realize that the emperor is out to destroy one and all and so they attempt to destroy the emperor in which case the emperor attempts to destroy them, and the alliance also decides to join in the darkside as many loved ones are involved, and it is therefore hostile territory. In fact I see no enemys.
It is as if we are just pitting the ships and the leaders aganist one another.

In any rate this is my take and I hope it is worth your attention thx.

Brent

[Lord Vasago]

The problem is that the Venators were targeting one massive target in the Malevolence arch. Their initial volley was full of misses and their assault on the bridge was just pathetic. Hopefully, we will see an increase in their aim.
this is something i can't comment on. Is this from books or comics of from the animated series?



Actually, the Dominion would just sit back and watch; they have no vested interest in attacking either because in any case, a potential enemy would win. The Empire would be the one they in fact, would care not to win, as with UFP tech they'd become a juggernaught. The Borg probably wouldn't care either way, but would really also take an interest in the Empire's technology as well, so either side takes a hit. The difference is that the UFP is more prepared for it. And finally, 8472 has a non-agression pact set up with Janeway. They'd have no reason to attack.

The danger you have when u really debate what would happen if the universes would colide and you keep in mind how species react to eatchother in their own universe, is that the possibility's are endless. Remember that their are powerfull negotiaters on both sides. The time that the empire posseses ST tech en visaversa. In matter of days both sides will know every weak point, every tech, every weapon, even all known species. So where does this battle take you from there.
BTW Q would be more intrested in the force (being more advanced) then normal humanoids. It would like be watching red ants versus black ants. Intresting to watch but thats it.

[FoolFromHell]

allthough your are wright keep in mind that a isd had allways a lot of targets. if you have like say hundred xwings to target or one Galaxy they would be a lot more accurate because one ship moves in one direction so you can allign your weapons.

second it is ST vs SW so you have to look at rebels and Empire as allies.
otherwise de dominion, borg, species8,,, will fight against the feds. hell even the ferengi will sell out the feds for the money the empire trows at them.
Romulans and Cardasians will happily join against the feds.
honestly, we've seen borg team up with Federation to defeat greater threat. We've seen 8472 sign a non-agression treaty with Federation. We've seen Romulans and Klingons team up with Federation to fight a bigger threat, the Dominion. We've seen the Dominion team up with the Federation to defeat a greater threat (Iconian Gate-enabled Jem Hadar). There are two options. if the Empire/Rebels/other can be defeated by a single Trek faction, they wont team up and will infight. If the Empire cannot be defeated by a single Trek faction, they will all team up since they have done it in the past
we better stick to ST vs SW i guess lol

in red,

[Gumbias]

Hey is my question and this is for you SW guys and gals. I have seen all the SW movies and the CW movie. What I would like ot know is the force similar to Telekinesis,ESP,Mind Control,etc. I know it is some what explain it in SW-PM. If you could shed a bit more light on the subject that would be great. Thanks all

[Kittamaru]

hmmmmmmmmm some flesh-eating virus will come inhandy lmao

Already tried and it failed miserably.

[Kittamaru]

The problem is that the Venators were targeting one massive target in the Malevolence arch. Their initial volley was full of misses and their assault on the bridge was just pathetic. Hopefully, we will see an increase in their aim.



Actually, the Dominion would just sit back and watch; they have no vested interest in attacking either because in any case, a potential enemy would win. The Empire would be the one they in fact, would care not to win, as with UFP tech they'd become a juggernaught. The Borg probably wouldn't care either way, but would really also take an interest in the Empire's technology as well, so either side takes a hit. The difference is that the UFP is more prepared for it. And finally, 8472 has a non-agression pact set up with Janeway. They'd have no reason to attack.

Remember hellblade - it's ALL of trek vs ALL of wars... all races and entities in each, excluding Q for the easy-win factor.

[Saquist]

Hey is my question and this is for you SW guys and gals. I have seen all the SW movies and the CW movie. What I would like ot know is the force similar to Telekinesis,ESP,Mind Control,etc. I know it is some what explain it in SW-PM. If you could shed a bit more light on the subject that would be great. Thanks all

Yes it is similar. The only difference is that in Star Wars those abilities are relayed by the midiclorians. Most of the time in other sci fi genres these are abilities of biological sentient individuals.

Luke said (quite important) "There maybe no dark or light to the force but we do have a dark side" From what I've read the Force is an energy field that has a mass effect, like electromagnetism and the pull of gravity put together. Concievably the other Forces (the strong and Nuclear force may also be under it's control as well.)

[Lord Vasago]

Remember hellblade - it's ALL of trek vs ALL of wars... all races and entities in each, excluding Q for the easy-win factor.

i must agree with kittamaru on this one it would be pointless to debate otherwise because we'll have to include personality into the fight. Not all humanoids, ferengi, hutts, klingons, etc will react in the same way. a good example is the bartender on DS9 (Qwark if i'm correct ?????) although he could betray sisco in a lot of ways he still is kinda loyal. but there are other fergengi that would sell their own mother for a buck.
So All vs All is the easyest way.

and yes kittamaru the Q are the 'get out of jail' card of ST. allthough the q are something special. nothing can prodict how they would act.
but because it's All ST vs All SW the ball is in your camp

[antaran_1979]

i agree it is not easy to cope with the in-universe events and behavioral patterns. but things in ST did change in the later iterations. the Dominion was pacified, the Romulans re-opened negotiations, the Ferengi converted to socialism, the Cardassians were demilitized.... after Nemesis UFP is basicly the center of power and the axis of all alliances in alpha quadrant. the Empire's situation is not quite as favorable. even without the rebels, their forces are needed to keep their population under wrap.

[TW Scott]

and yes kittamaru the Q are the 'get out of jail' card of ST. allthough the q are something special. nothing can prodict how they would act.
but because it's All ST vs All SW the ball is in your camp

Acutally there is no get out of Jail free card. Period. To counter the Q, SW has several different types of Omnipotent being, one of which is an entire world. Not only that but the Omnipotent beings of SW are not hands off, like the Q are.

If the Q did not help with any previous war they will not help with this one. There is no reason for them to, In fact in the scheme of things, they would actually have more reason to foment such a war then to stop it.

Oh and just becuae it is all versus all, does not mean each group will not act as they normally do, especially if they realize under the Empire they would not have to worry about Federation meddling.