Star Wars vs Star Trek

[SkywalkerJedi]

Of course you are. You hate the truth becuase you think somehow it means something more than just...."Well in a war Star Wars wins." You fail to see that it does not diminish anything about Star Trek at all.

Here is a better reason. They hate EU because it is too good for them to handle.

[Sardonic Crisis]

Actually you're end is pointless. SW ships do not fire laser beams. They fire particle bolts. The resuling backlash would have no way of reaching the ship that fired the weapon with the possible exception fo the Death Star and Eclipse Star Destroyer. There might be some so of subatomic explosion, but without enough matter between point A and B to conduct it, the effect would be pointless. Simple science here.

The disruption is at the quantum level and with a larger energy output of the TL the reaction is going to be larger. A man sized shield interacted with a simple laser gun and destroyed a section of a city on Porritrin. Think of a spaceship sized shield reacting with something of a higher energy output. Plus, the reaction argument is null and void due to Antaran's critique.

Now how are you going to hit every point on a Dune ship to weaken the shield enough to destabilize it? ST has an answer, I don't think SW does. Thus TL would end up being ineffective weapons.

Actually, most planets have their defenses on all the time. Planets lower their shields to let ships in. As for the ship appearing and disappearing quickly. Going by the movies that still takes several minutes for a navigator to do. So the pop in might be safe, but unload and popping away may not happen fast enough to save the vessel.

This is your problem... you only derive your info from less than a quarter of the Dune archive and it's distorted by being based off the movie adaptations. The Guild don't have a monopoly on space travel... that was broken by the development of ixian navigation machines. Duncan reacts in the span of seconds to the Enemy and fold-jumps...

Uh, Stoneburner in Children of Dune did not even destroy a large small portion of a large city. Sorry, but I pay very close attention.

Congratulations you can watch an adaptation... but the question remains... can you read? In Dune Messiah (The sci-fi channel put Dune Messiah and Children of Dune together) Paul specifically remarks --or thinks, I can't quite remember-- that a stoneburner is a foolish weapon to use on a planet because if it isn't diminished enough it could blast to the core of the planet and fracture it. Plus, the blast of a stone burner is vertical... the shockwave is horizontal and harmless unless you are in its path and the only after effects of the radiation is loss of eye tissue due to the specific type of radiation.

Okay, you are failing to see the real picture here. Warp and Hyperspace would free the great houses from the opression of the Emperor and the Guild. No longer would either be needed just to commence trade. The later would still be useful. But they would not have a stranglehold on everything. The Great Houses would gladly turn on the Leto and the Guild becuase they would no longer need them. We saw it happen before in Dune and it will happen again, Fuedal systems are notoriously easy to tear apart from within. besides being a member of the Federation or the Empire would be unprecedented freedom for the people of the Dune universe.

Again, you fail to realize the full caliber of the Dune archive. The Dune universe broke open after the death of Leto II in what is called the scattering. The Bene Gesserit bound it back together in Heretics and Chapterhouse to face the enemy the honored matres had nipping at their heels. Now... try and break a bene gesserit hold and you are doomed for failure. In fact, by the time of heretics many monopolies of the old empire had been overcome like spice, space travel, and even prescience. Then later on, the human civilization allied with The Enemy, who were in fact the machines that they fought thousands of years prior. Fractured???? Are you joking?

[TW Scott]

The disruption is at the quantum level and with a larger energy output of the TL the reaction is going to be larger. A man sized shield interacted with a simple laser gun and destroyed a section of a city on Porritrin. Think of a spaceship sized shield reacting with something of a higher energy output. Plus, the reaction argument is null and void due to Antaran's critique.

Now how are you going to hit every point on a Dune ship to weaken the shield enough to destabilize it? ST has an answer, I don't think SW does. Thus TL would end up being ineffective weapons.

First of all you are assuming the Holtzman shield is effective against Turblaser (which are not lasers) and Phasers (again not lasers). The Holtzman field has only shown it's reaction to Laser weaponry. Even then it seems to violate Thermodynamics, which not even Star Trek's Q does. So if we go by the harsh realities of the situation the Turbolaser and Phaser will likely simply blow a hole through the shield by overpowering the ability of the Holtzman Shield to stop the beams. Remember, the most powerful weapons in Dune are kiloton level weapons, not mega and gigaton weapons.

This is your problem... you only derive your info from less than a quarter of the Dune archive and it's distorted by being based off the movie adaptations. The Guild don't have a monopoly on space travel... that was broken by the development of ixian navigation machines. Duncan reacts in the span of seconds to the Enemy and fold-jumps...

Actually, I have read the books, read the ones Frank wrote. Stopped when he wasn;t writing them The kid took an actual functioning uninverse and violated every little rule set down.

Congratulations you can watch an adaptation... but the question remains... can you read? In Dune Messiah (The sci-fi channel put Dune Messiah and Children of Dune together) Paul specifically remarks --or thinks, I can't quite remember-- that a stoneburner is a foolish weapon to use on a planet because if it isn't diminished enough it could blast to the core of the planet and fracture it. Plus, the blast of a stone burner is vertical... the shockwave is horizontal and harmless unless you are in its path and the only after effects of the radiation is loss of eye tissue due to the specific type of radiation.

Whatever some spoiled rich kid thinks and what we actually saw were two different things. The weapon obviously did not destroy the planet, obviously had some effect on the surrounding area, and so on. If Commander Riker said a Photon Torpedo could destroy Earth, would you agree with that stement despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Again, you fail to realize the full caliber of the Dune archive. The Dune universe broke open after the death of Leto II in what is called the scattering. The Bene Gesserit bound it back together in Heretics and Chapterhouse to face the enemy the honored matres had nipping at their heels. Now... try and break a bene gesserit hold and you are doomed for failure. In fact, by the time of heretics many monopolies of the old empire had been overcome like spice, space travel, and even prescience. Then later on, the human civilization allied with The Enemy, who were in fact the machines that they fought thousands of years prior. Fractured???? Are you joking?

Ah, so the kid violated Daddy's rules every last way he could. Sad. frank had such a realistic thing going and the Kid couldn;t keep from ruining it. I weep for it everyday. He took a great story and turned it inot complete fairy tale. No one has to beat Dune, it beat itself and wil cycle back into the Butleran Jihad.

[TW Scott]

okay quick point on Holtzamn shield in space. Yes the interaction with a laser cuases a huge explosion. However in space there is no medium to carry that explosion back to the firing ship So a Lazer would be the ultimate weapon against Holtzamn shielded ships in space becuase their own shields would help you kill them.

[Sardonic Crisis]

First of all you are assuming the Holtzman shield is effective against Turblaser (which are not lasers) and Phasers (again not lasers). The Holtzman field has only shown it's reaction to Laser weaponry. Even then it seems to violate Thermodynamics, which not even Star Trek's Q does. So if we go by the harsh realities of the situation the Turbolaser and Phaser will likely simply blow a hole through the shield by overpowering the ability of the Holtzman Shield to stop the beams. Remember, the most powerful weapons in Dune are kiloton level weapons, not mega and gigaton weapons.

Against beam weapons other than lasers would result in the shield doing what it does best... shielding. Like I said, the only weakness other than slow moving projectiles is to hit the ship simultaneously at every point of the shielding. ST is capable... how is SW... you didn't respond to this.

[QUOTE]Actually, I have read the books, read the ones Frank wrote. Stopped when he wasn;t writing them The kid took an actual functioning uninverse and violated every little rule set down.[/QUOTE
Everything I mentioned that was after the scattering was written by frank herbert in Heretics and Chapterhouse. The last sentence was the only reference post-frank (in Hunters of Dune)

Whatever some spoiled rich kid thinks and what we actually saw were two different things. The weapon obviously did not destroy the planet, obviously had some effect on the surrounding area, and so on. If Commander Riker said a Photon Torpedo could destroy Earth, would you agree with that stement despite all the evidence to the contrary.

I quote from Dune Messiah, paperback version pg. 239(BY FRANK HERBERT):

"Paul remained silent, thinking what this weapon implied. Too much fuel in it and it'd cut its way into the planet's core. Dune's molten level lay deep, but more dangerous for that. Such pressures released and out of control might split a planet, scattering lifeless bits and pieces through space."

1. He's thinking of an occurance in history that actually happened.
or
2. He's basing it off theories of his modern day weapons.

either way, the tech is obviously more advanced than you are giving credit to.

As to the whole Brian Herbert/Idiot J. Anderson remarks... I try not to use them except as a secondary source, which is what they are.

[Sardonic Crisis]

okay quick point on Holtzamn shield in space. Yes the interaction with a laser cuases a huge explosion. However in space there is no medium to carry that explosion back to the firing ship So a Lazer would be the ultimate weapon against Holtzamn shielded ships in space becuase their own shields would help you kill them.

The reaction was said to occur at either the originating point of the laser or at the shield itself. One was going to explode but it wasn't certain which one.

[Kittamaru]

Originally Posted by TW Scott
Okay, to effectively destroy a palnet takes a level of firepower almost unimaginable. Just to break up the gravitational binding energy you would have to provide as the total power as our sun outputs in seven years. Now that is for a slow breakup that could take days. For a faster one like Alderaan it takes much more.

However in "The Omega Directive" Harry Kim's comment was made in a joking manner. Even if that was not true the fact that we never see it destroy the planet puts lie to his statement. Remember dialog means nothing without visuals to back it up.
”
”

Also, you just shot yourself in the face:

You just made ALL your EU obsolete- I want visuals to back up EVERY STATEMENT you take from EU. NOW. Or we shall, simply, disregard them!

I plan to post this every time you try to screw around until:

A) you rescind this statement

or

B) you disregard ALL of EU.

I'm waiting scott

[Kittamaru]

Here is a better reason. They hate EU because it is too good for them to handle.

We hate EU because it's bullshit... what we read in EU and what we see in the movies is near 95% contradictory! Thus, we simply ignore most of EU because the 6 movies disprove a majority of it!

[Kittamaru]

The reaction was said to occur at either the originating point of the laser or at the shield itself. One was going to explode but it wasn't certain which one.

If you haven't learned it yet, Scott is a great big pile of BS and can't argue worth a damn. His arguments are never backed up with facts and often don't even include his (at best) shaky suppositions...

[HumanBeast]

All except Star Trek.

[Saquist]

Plenty of room for argument, Fox, the torpedoes in question penetrated Borg defenses, but we have no assurance they would penetrate any other defenses. In fact we seem the only used against the Borg vessels and normal cubes at that. Since First Contact proved that Borg ships do have weak points the weapon could just have hit one of those points.

No..Fox has got it right. Those that look for room to argue that simple point need the room. I for one do not.

Also you are assuming that more could be made so quickly. Janeway had to bring back the basic parts for every last transphasic torpedo she gave Voyager. The parts may not be replicatable, or the Federation might need thirty years of reasearch just to be able to produce the weapon. That is if they decide they can break the Temporal Prime Directive.

I call that Speculation against the Canon.
Voyager produced the weapons. If a ship could do it from simple schematics in the Depths of the Delta Quadrant with limited reservers then Star Fleet could as well. This is perhaps the most retarded thing I've heard from you and that is quite a feat but you do find someway to best your last statement everytime I show up.

This likely will be my last post in this thread due to the language and animosity going around. I have looked at the films and episodes. I saw several occasions where a listed rating did more to one thing than to another or blew up a fighter and didn't scratch a tree with more than a shower of sparks. Considering this there are simply continuity flaws in what amount of energy does what damage to what materials. Thus this argument will never end. Personally since we are going with complete canon here my argument is this. Even with Q taken out since he's basically a god, transphasic torpedoes are canon, they were in the last episode of Voyager and thus usable. If any one technology could assure the Federation a win its that, end of story, no room for argument. By the way if you think about Federation policy they wouldn't have transphasic torpedoes on their ships normaly (hence no mention in Inssurection) but if war happened you can bet they would become available if the files were not already in the ships so the torps could be modified on the fly.

You're right Trek has the same energy issues but just not as many in the percentage issue. I'm sorry this discussion is so volatile. If some would simple Ignore certain attitudes then perhaps this would not have been a thread that would have lasted...It's the contention they seek not the resolution.

[Saquist]

It's funny...Antaran and My self have been some of the only ones willing to provide visual proof of there claims while the Star Wars camp has devoid of any meaningful demonstration of their claims.

[SkywalkerJedi]

It's funny...Antaran and My self have been some of the only ones willing to provide visual proof of there claims while the Star Wars camp has devoid of any meaningful demonstration of their claims.

1. We try to find pictures, but can't get any
2. I don't remember the episode's names

[Saquist]

But some the claims have been off the charts so to speak...

[SkywalkerJedi]

But some the claims have been off the charts so to speak...

1. EU is canon, and it is novles so I can't find visual proof
2. I did try to find images

[SkywalkerJedi]

We hate EU because it's bullshit... what we read in EU and what we see in the movies is near 95% contradictory! Thus, we simply ignore most of EU because the 6 movies disprove a majority of it!

That is full of lies. Lucasfilm licienced EU is perfectly canon, and they are 0% cantradictroy. In reality you hate EU because it have nice weapons that Star Trek will never have a chance to build, so you make excuses by saying it is non-canon, and ignore my counter-posts that have valid proof it is canon.

[SkywalkerJedi]

If you haven't learned it yet, Scott is a great big pile of BS and can't argue worth a damn. His arguments are never backed up with facts and often don't even include his (at best) shaky suppositions...

He did back it up, you ignored it.

[Kittamaru]

1. We try to find pictures, but can't get any
2. I don't remember the episode's names

1) That means you have a problem with your claim
2) Episode...? There's only 6 movies...

[Kittamaru]

1. EU is canon, and it is novles so I can't find visual proof
2. I did try to find images

EU is not cannon, as we have visual proof that the claims you are making from the books are bogus.

What images...

[Kittamaru]

That is full of lies. Lucasfilm licienced EU is perfectly canon, and they are 0% cantradictroy. In reality you hate EU because it have nice weapons that Star Trek will never have a chance to build, so you make excuses by saying it is non-canon, and ignore my counter-posts that have valid proof it is canon.

*rolls his eyes*

You really are the dumbest ten year old I know... every other ten year old, and most SIX year olds, get the idea - if example one, which is the perfect proof, says this, and example two, which is an imperfect proof, says something else... you take the FIRST EXAMPLE.

Movies show requirements for feats that the EU try to circumvent... why? Because in EU, blowing up the DS3,4,5,6,7 etc would be BORING. Fighting the same enemies would be BORING. So instead of adding in new content in line with the current stuff, they make up some bullshit excuse and say this thing can blow up a star, or this thing can make a gigantic fleet in days.

As it isn't in the movies, it can't do that. Period. End of fucking story. If Centerpoint was SO powerful, don't you THINK the Empire and Rebels would have fought over it?

Uh, duh?