Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Fox Anderson]

This likely will be my last post in this thread due to the language and animosity going around. I have looked at the films and episodes. I saw several occasions where a listed rating did more to one thing than to another or blew up a fighter and didn't scratch a tree with more than a shower of sparks. Considering this there are simply continuity flaws in what amount of energy does what damage to what materials. Thus this argument will never end. Personally since we are going with complete canon here my argument is this. Even with Q taken out since he's basically a god, transphasic torpedoes are canon, they were in the last episode of Voyager and thus usable. If any one technology could assure the Federation a win its that, end of story, no room for argument. By the way if you think about Federation policy they wouldn't have transphasic torpedoes on their ships normaly (hence no mention in Inssurection) but if war happened you can bet they would become available if the files were not already in the ships so the torps could be modified on the fly.

[TW Scott]

[QUOTE=antaran_1979;1839783]1.and since even large caleber blasters of the AT-STs do next to no damage on foilage and ewok catapults we can safely asume they are less powerfull then 40 mm short barells M4 WW2 guns [quote]

Considering that the blaster cannons on a AT-ST are the equivalent of the heavy repeating blasters carried by heavy weapons squads or the earthly equivalent of the .50 caliber machine gun. You may indeed be correct. however we see in several shots that the blaster explosive blow the bark from tree truncks, cuase explosions powerful enough to fling 40kg humanoids ten to fifteen feet, and other feats that even today's 40mm grendaes cannot adequately do then you would be wrong.

Remember some of the light stuff it would have hit, the bolt would have just punched a hole and kept going, nuch like if a human was shot with a 20mm Armor piercing Discarding Sabot Depleted Uranium round. Basically the light material did not offer enough resistance to slow the bolt. Meanwhile phasers stop at the first object they hit.

2.now, if i recall corectly no one in the vicinty died from fatal exposure to silicon superheated vapor, so your estemate is fishy. phasers do not change the state of the matter to gas, cause there is simply no evidence of such thermal energy intensive events. if you turn 1 cubic meter of rock into gas simultaniously you'll end up with a big eart shattering caboom, and a lot of plasma floating around (the bloody temperature will rise sky high)

Well, this is where we agree in both cases neither weapon has shown the ability to vaporize much of anything. Hand phasers can destroy organic materials, light metals, rocks, and light ceramics with some ease. Dense materials require much more time, like the scene wewre wark annhilates a few thousand cubic centimeters of rock. Or in other scenes were a full power phaser hit does not even scorch interior ship panels and god forbid your target take cover behind a packing crate. Blasters of the other hand often leave telltale marks of errants shots. Walls end up litters with smoking and sometimes even flaming reminders. Armor is pierce and superheated in some hits. In fact the only time a blaster seems ineeffective is against a shielded object.

3.ehen did this happen? might you show us a photo-snap of that blast?

A New Hope when he was shooting at the Stormtroopers who were attempting to stop him from leaving Mos Eisley

4.hahahahaha... do you even know what neutronium actually is? i bet you mine a lot if it in SW huh? and a word of reminder. carbon+iron=steel. or carbon inreached iron. the pure form of carbon (diamond) is still stronger then eighter.

Funny then that high carbon steel can be used to cut diamonds then isn't it?

That is besides the point. In "Relics" the Enterprise D could not drill her way out of the Dyson sphere thanks to a layer of "Carbon-Nuetronium" alloy under the living surface. When the crew of DS9 had to work with Jem H'dar to seal an Iconian portal the complex was in a "Nuetronium alloy" bunker. The Doomsday Machine was constructed of Nuetronium. In all these cases the material did not act anything like degenerate matter. In each case it was a super dense energy resistant material. Which is exactly how it is protrayed in Star Wars. So the two franchises mesh perfectly there.

5.so a crash landing on a mountain slope is far safer then a crashlanding on a well maintained airstrip??? it's good to know. i'll make sure to tell the victims of 1993 airliner crash.

Actually, you are making the same mistake many people do. The mountains in Generations were obviously alluvial. Meaning piles of dirt carved by retreating glaciers. that mountain was no more dangerous than a a few hundred tons of heavy clay soil dumped in someone field to form a hill. The surface is soft and the bedrock is many, many feet below. It is not like the Saucer section slammed into the side of a jagged peak. Meanwhile the well maintain runway was a superhard surface meant to take the stresses of trillions of tons of force per squared foot. This ship landing was also not meant to ever land, even in an emmergency.

6.oh well that is just great. just use cardboard armour of say 3 in and you'll be safe

Actually that would protect you from one or two hits from a phaser. However wghat my colleage was trying to say is the hole punched through the target is going to be roughly the same sicze as long as the materail is not superconductive or resistant to energy. However as the bolt shows a physical effect anything that cannot be just blown through by a blaster bolt will very like have nasty scars to speak of the encounter.

7.i'd stay away from those. UFP would not use them. they would violate the temporal prime directive.

that i would agree with. But the Voyager's Bat armor proves that Federation Shielding is not a standard substitute for heavy armor plating.

8.how can you tractor them if you can't detect them?

Even phased objects emit gravity or in some cases distort it. SW vessel sensors are much more sensitive when it comes to gravity and magnetics. They need to be to adequetly protect themselves in hyperspace. SW Cloaking devices include gravity masks, though those are even detectable if the ship has an upgraded sensors array,

[TW Scott]

This likely will be my last post in this thread due to the language and animosity going around. I have looked at the films and episodes. I saw several occasions where a listed rating did more to one thing than to another or blew up a fighter and didn't scratch a tree with more than a shower of sparks. Considering this there are simply continuity flaws in what amount of energy does what damage to what materials. Thus this argument will never end. Personally since we are going with complete canon here my argument is this. Even with Q taken out since he's basically a god, transphasic torpedoes are canon, they were in the last episode of Voyager and thus usable. If any one technology could assure the Federation a win its that, end of story, no room for argument. By the way if you think about Federation policy they wouldn't have transphasic torpedoes on their ships normaly (hence no mention in Inssurection) but if war happened you can bet they would become available if the files were not already in the ships so the torps could be modified on the fly.

Plenty of room for argument, Fox, the torpedoes in question penetrated Borg defenses, but we have no assurance they would penetrate any other defenses. In fact we seem the only used against the Borg vessels and normal cubes at that. Since First Contact proved that Borg ships do have weak points the weapon could just have hit one of those points.

Also you are assuming that more could be made so quickly. Janeway had to bring back the basic parts for every last transphasic torpedo she gave Voyager. The parts may not be replicatable, or the Federation might need thirty years of reasearch just to be able to produce the weapon. That is if they decide they can break the Temporal Prime Directive.

You also aren't understanding the strategy the Empire can use. Star Trek strategy depends on detecting the incoming enemy and sending out ships to intercept. In this case the enemy is not detectable untill he is in a high orbit and firing on your planet. Unless you plan on having a few ships permanently orbiting each planet there is going to be minimal defenses against an Imperial attack.

[TW Scott]

Note about the Voth, They would kick the crap out of the whole starwars galaxy with just one city ship. They have phasing technology that can be used for personal use. They can phase a ship. This renders them unhittable. You can't kill what you can't hit. The Federation now has transphasic torpedoes. Those phase through and generaly detonate near the power core of a ship. This means one torpedo equals 1 ship gone since NOTHING in the Star Wars universe has a defense against that.

Sorry, but incorrect. Phased ships are still vulnerable to a few things. tractor beams and artificial gravity are two. Also if they are phased they can't attack so it's to edged blade.

As for transphasic torpedoes. We know they defeat Borg defenses, but have no proof on anything else. Since SW vessels continously deal with shielding themsleves from an alternate reality and their shields are vastly different, Transphasics could simply be a dud, even if they were used.

[TW Scott]

Ask kitt.

Oh yes, that will be productive. The man has left reason behind a long time ago.

A phaser on setting 16 can vaporize (or at least destroy) an entire building.

No blaster can do that.

Actually, we see Worf use a phaser for 2-3 seconds to disintegrate a few ten thousands of cubic centimeters of granite. Riker said that his phaser strike would obliterate half a building. Remember the man must have been bluffing as we have visual that does not confirm what he said.

Bullshit. The enterprise had a significantly rougher landing (the hand landed on a landing strip and was torn like styrofoam while Voyager survived a plummit and impact at 80% the speed of light).

You just lied twice.

The CIS Invisible hand was already all but destroyed before it even made it's decent. The landing on the hardened runway at 5000+ m/second did minor damage to the outer bottom hull after the ship reentered atmosphere, had it's paint catch aflame and slam hard into a runway when it had no landing gear and was not designed to ever land.

Yoyager survived a plummet as significatnly less than light. If it had been any over .1c you would not even been able to see the imapct. Remember also that the the Slipstream and warp drive mean that the ship had no mass and no momentum. In fact the ship had less mass than photons so the power of her hit would still be substiantial, but far less devastating than one would think

Phasers are simply stronger. Face it.

Actually, we have seen time and time again that Phasers are effective assassination weapons, but in warfare they suck ass.

Hahaha! And your protecting the Empires ground tactics?!? The Stand-and-shoot tactic is worse than the method used by the Jem'Hadar, or the british for that matter (for godsake, the fucking Stormtroopers were wearing fucking stark-white plastic armor in the woods! ).

The Emperor had not foreseen the Ewoks entering the fray. So had sent his most loyal troops not the 501st. As for Stormtrooper Tactics if you watch again Storm troopers do take cover. Let's say there were 500 troopers they were facing 50 commandos and 1500 insurgents. While the Ewoks seem harmless they did demonstrate they were roughly as strong as a grown man, engineering skill far beyond their material base, and a thorough knowledge of traps and terrain. the Rebel Commandos are equivalent of Army Rangers. Want s demonstration of how badass they are watch Blackhawk Down. Then there is the force sensitive Liea, The absolute luckiest man in the galaxy and a wookie warrior widely regarded as the second greatest wookie in history. To compound matter primative traps destroyed several if the light armor and the remaining piece was stolen by the Wookie.

Ah bullshit, they got their asses kicked by teddy bears, no counter-argument could win that.

Se above and learn oh judgemental one.

Fed ships have superior firepower (see other quote).

Would that be why they can;t destroy anything even remotely as large as SW vessels have? Would that be why they taken 10 seconds to do what took SW 1/15th of a second? Would that be why 400 gigawatts is considered a great threat? Sorry but your own canon complete disagrees with that.

Someone hasn't had their medicine today...

Ad hominim

Star Trek ships have superior firepower. See quote.

Saying it amny, many times without any proof does not make it true.

Edit: We're tired of TW clones...

Of course you are. You hate the truth becuase you think somehow it means something more than just...."Well in a war Star Wars wins." You fail to see that it does not diminish anything about Star Trek at all.

[antaran_1979]

1.Sorry, but incorrect. Phased ships are still vulnerable to a few things. tractor beams and artificial gravity are two. Also if they are phased they can't attack so it's to edged blade.

2.As for transphasic torpedoes. We know they defeat Borg defenses, but have no proof on anything else. Since SW vessels continously deal with shielding themsleves from an alternate reality and their shields are vastly different, Transphasics could simply be a dud, even if they were used.

1. why are phased ships vulnerable to tractors and artificial gravity? (source)
2. and we see blasters efective against storm troopers only and TLs against rocks only (or tiny straight moving corvettes), does this mean they are useless against anything else? in ST, Borg are suposed to be the Boogyman. if these thingies are efective against them well.... besides if transphasic means what it usually means in ST, then the only defence is a transphasic/temporal shield or someething.

as for the weak point in STFC, it was a weak point only because the cube was allready badly damaged.

[antaran_1979]

[QUOTE=TW Scott;1840140]

1.
Considering that the blaster cannons on a AT-ST are the equivalent of the heavy repeating blasters carried by heavy weapons squads or the earthly equivalent of the .50 caliber machine gun. You may indeed be correct. however we see in several shots that the blaster explosive blow the bark from tree truncks,


3.Well, this is where we agree in both cases neither weapon has shown the ability to vaporize much of anything.

4.Or in other scenes were a full power phaser hit does not even scorch interior ship panels . Blasters of the other hand often leave telltale marks of errants shots. Walls end up litters with smoking and sometimes even flaming reminders. Armor is pierce and superheated in some hits. In fact the only time a blaster seems ineeffective is against a shielded object.




5.A New Hope when he was shooting at the Stormtroopers who were attempting to stop him from leaving Mos Eisley



6.Funny then that high carbon steel can be used to cut diamonds then isn't it?

7.That is besides the point. In "Relics" the Enterprise D could not drill her way out of the Dyson sphere thanks to a layer of "Carbon-Nuetronium" alloy . Which is exactly how it is protrayed in Star Wars. So the two franchises mesh perfectly there.


8.Actually, you are making the same mistake many people do. The mountains in Generations were obviously alluvial.



9.Actually that would protect you from one or two hits from a phaser. However wghat my colleage was trying to say is the hole punched through the target is going to be roughly the same sicze as long as the materail is not superconductive or resistant to energy. However as the bolt shows a physical effect anything that cannot be just blown through by a blaster bolt will very like have nasty scars to speak of the encounter.


10.Even phased objects emit gravity or in some cases distort it.

1.AT-STs equivalent of heavy repeaters? and vulnerable to those? you migh be wrong. however just in case you are not, the only example of thee bolts actually passing through tree bark lives no traces of heet at all (look up my caps around pages 450-500). in any other instince they hit wood (ewok catapult) and detonate not living a scratch.

3. agreed (it's good to finaly agree on something that can be visually astablished don't ya think )

4. and how many times can we actually confirm that hand phasers were set on full? even withouth such confirmations every now and then they live serious markings on the surounding area. basters however live 1-2 inch holes at best (mostly on walls) and most of the time not even that.

5.a screen cap please... or do i have to do that too. i'm tired of being the only one to post caps for both sides of the argument.

6.it can be used because of the inherent weakness of the crystaline structure and the blade is usually layerd with diamon dust. the diamond is still harder and more heet resistant.

7.if i recall corectly its carbon-neutronium. the word alloy is not mentioned. i can't vouch for the Jem'Hadar episode. anyways, what kills the SW neutronium right away is the method of manufacture/extraction. if they specified that in ST too then, you'd had the point. but nowhere in ST do we see neutronium "ore". (i wan't your opinion on this topic:whay do you think neutronium would be resistant to phaser fire? i have a theory but i wan't your opinion first, to see if great minds think in a same manner )

8.so let me paraphrase this, i'll tell the relatives of that crash that crash landing on an aluvial mountain is safer then on well maintained airstrip

9.he said that bolts make same caliber holes on all targets. far from true, but i had to yank him a bit

10.why?

[Kittamaru]

Plenty of room for argument, Fox, the torpedoes in question penetrated Borg defenses, but we have no assurance they would penetrate any other defenses. In fact we seem the only used against the Borg vessels and normal cubes at that. Since First Contact proved that Borg ships do have weak points the weapon could just have hit one of those points.

Also you are assuming that more could be made so quickly. Janeway had to bring back the basic parts for every last transphasic torpedo she gave Voyager. The parts may not be replicatable, or the Federation might need thirty years of reasearch just to be able to produce the weapon. That is if they decide they can break the Temporal Prime Directive.

You also aren't understanding the strategy the Empire can use. Star Trek strategy depends on detecting the incoming enemy and sending out ships to intercept. In this case the enemy is not detectable untill he is in a high orbit and firing on your planet. Unless you plan on having a few ships permanently orbiting each planet there is going to be minimal defenses against an Imperial attack.

It's post future janeway already, so transphasic torps are in full production.

They "bypass" borg defenses by, oh, surprise surprise given the name, PHASING OUT OF REALITY! Then they re-enter reality INSIDE the ship and big boom.

[SkywalkerJedi]

Yes, you are. NO supporting facts, just a bunch of bullshit claims that you can't back up without resorting to fan-wank bullshit from SOME RANDOM ASS BOOK George Lucas had NOTHING to do with!

It is the Star Wars Saga. Do you know what are YHV blaster cannons?

[SkywalkerJedi]

Of course you are. You hate the truth becuase you think somehow it means something more than just...."Well in a war Star Wars wins." You fail to see that it does not diminish anything about Star Trek at all.

No they hate losing.

[antaran_1979]

No they hate losing.

depends on what you see as losing

[Saquist]

1. why are phased ships vulnerable to tractors and artificial gravity? (source)
2. and we see blasters efective against storm troopers only and TLs against rocks only (or tiny straight moving corvettes), does this mean they are useless against anything else? in ST, Borg are suposed to be the Boogyman. if these thingies are efective against them well.... besides if transphasic means what it usually means in ST, then the only defence is a transphasic/temporal shield or someething.

as for the weak point in STFC, it was a weak point only because the cube was allready badly damaged.

I think it likely, considering Picards Actions- He did not execute the order immediately to destroy the Cube and after taking a moment to listen- That Picard was targeting the exact location of the Queen.

If you notice the point of fire was directed at the lower part of the Cube and the Sphere emerged from the same area on a different face.

I

[Kittamaru]

Saquist, if you watch the scene again, that part of the cube already had heavy visual damage

[SkywalkerJedi]

I think it likely, considering Picards Actions- He did not execute the order immediately to destroy the Cube and after taking a moment to listen- That Picard was targeting the exact location of the Queen.

If you notice the point of fire was directed at the lower part of the Cube and the Sphere emerged from the same area on a different face.

I

Centerpoint Station can destroy a Borg planet with no problem.

[Sardonic Crisis]

[QUOTE=TW Scott;1837301Dangerous and unpredicatble for the one with the shield. Okay lets' say I hand you Captain America's shield. It is supposedly more indestructable than Adamantium. Now I tell you to squat behind it so that no part of you is visible. Then I get in my M1A1 tank and fire a HE shell right at the White star on the shield. What's going to be left of you?[/QUOTE]
This argument is pointless. Others have shown how the weakness of the holtzman shields can be exploited... this, if you are arguing the reaction of the shield, would of course destroy the Dune ship but cause a subatomic explosion that would be extremely dangerous for the vessel who fired upon it... it would be like hanging around for a warp core breach... except you actually have time to move away from one of those. (try arguing what the reaction of the shields would be and you might get somewhere)

How is this any different then in Star Wars or in Federation areas within striking distance of the romulans. Giving either a full minute is asking for complete and utter destruction. Even warming up the guns SW could fire all their weapons at you 40 times with no effort and ST could easily pull off at least twenty.

Because Dune ships can be at close quarters instantaneously via a foldspace jump and leave the same way... you don't have a warning time to raise a defense.

We have never seen any battleships in Dune and if megaton level Atomic weapons are considered the big badass WMD then even a single Star Trek Class 2 Shuttle can take on Dune Highliners and win. A single ISD would be more than the Guild would ever want to admit. Plus given the fractious universe of dune hearing of Warp or Hyperspace would have the Great Houses killing the Navigators if they could get their hands on these devices.

Um...... Stoneburner = Destruction of Planet. These are not simple megaton level atomics... actually look into your opponent before making assumptions.

The Dune universe is notorious for centralizing when a threat of significance reaches their borders. In fact, the tech jumps in the Dune universe come from fighting stronger and more advanced opponents... the only time it stagnates is when an era of peace is around and thanks to Leto II it was 3500 years before a crisis happened to make cause for ixian navigation devices. And finally, warp and hyperspace are frail techs compared to instantaneous space travel of the holtzman engines.

[TW Scott]

[1.AT-STs equivalent of heavy repeaters? and vulnerable to those? you migh be wrong. however just in case you are not, the only example of thee bolts actually passing through tree bark lives no traces of heet at all (look up my caps around pages 450-500). in any other instince they hit wood (ewok catapult) and detonate not living a scratch.

What, you have a thermometer that measures heat from a visual medium? I call bullshit there. Wet wood is very hard to light, I know becuase i lived with a wood fiurnace for many years. As for the catapult the only time i saw a catapult shot by the blaster on and AT-ST there was not much left from a direct hit.

BTW an AT-ST is analogous of a current HMMWV. It's a light scouting vehicle that can carry limited troops and has limited firepower.

3. agreed (it's good to finaly agree on something that can be visually astablished don't ya think)

However this does not let ST off any hooks as at least Blasters leave scorch marks, Phasers don;t even manage that 99.9% of the time.

4. and how many times can we actually confirm that hand phasers were set on full? even withouth such confirmations every now and then they live serious markings on the surounding area. basters however live 1-2 inch holes at best (mostly on walls) and most of the time not even that.

We see them blow gaping molten hot holes in Stormtrooper armor and in ANH see Han's handgun blow massive chunks of ferrocrete out of a wall designed to resist the backblast of plasma engines.

5.a screen cap please... or do i have to do that too. i'm tired of being the only one to post caps for both sides of the argument.

there is also this door blasted apart in ANH

6.it can be used because of the inherent weakness of the crystaline structure and the blade is usually layerd with diamon dust. the diamond is still harder and more heet resistant.

Actually the there is no weakness in a diamond crystal structure as the diamond is one massive molecule. And diamond dust would hinder such a cutting process. In actuality gem diamonds are not pure diamonds and have many nonvisible flaws which cuases cleaving. However if we had a perfect diamond, cutting it would be nigh impossible.

7.if i recall corectly its carbon-neutronium. the word alloy is not mentioned. i can't vouch for the Jem'Hadar episode. anyways, what kills the SW neutronium right away is the method of manufacture/extraction. if they specified that in ST too then, you'd had the point. but nowhere in ST do we see neutronium "ore". (i wan't your opinion on this topic:whay do you think neutronium would be resistant to phaser fire? i have a theory but i wan't your opinion first, to see if great minds think in a same manner )

Alloy was indeed mentioned by Lt. Worf. Same for the Jem' Hadar facilitiy which actually predates the first hominids on earth, as would the Dyson Sphere. Some culture had to deal with what ST refers to as Neutronium and since it acts no different than a super heavy metal it was likely mined especially if they built with it. And considering three radically different technologies designed it is likely that three different ccultures knew how to deal with it. So it must have been at least somewhat common. Especially to build the Dyson sphere.

As for the resistance to Phasers. If it is collapsed matter there is absolutely no atomic or molecular bonds to tear apart. If it is just a heavy, energy resistant metal it is likely just immune to nadion bombardment as it simply takes far too much energy to break apart.

8.so let me paraphrase this, i'll tell the relatives of that crash that crash landing on an aluvial mountain is safer then on well maintained airstrip

Well, they would agree with you especially since the 93 crash was in a mantle plate plate fold mountain that was actually rock. Not some hill of dirt. Also the speed and condistion of the ship have some influence.

To be a fair approximation of the CIS Invisible hand landing the Eneterprise D Saucer section would have had to been completely unpowered, moving 20 times as fast as it was, and have lost structural integrity due to combat. It also would need only 2 crew and Data and the President of the Federation. Fianlly it would have had been designed specifically not to land even in an emergency.

9.he said that bolts make same caliber holes on all targets. far from true, but i had to yank him a bit

Yeah well, I had to yank you too,

10.why?

Actually, becuase when ever we see something on Star trek that is phased it still is affected by gravity.

[TW Scott]

This argument is pointless. Others have shown how the weakness of the holtzman shields can be exploited... this, if you are arguing the reaction of the shield, would of course destroy the Dune ship but cause a subatomic explosion that would be extremely dangerous for the vessel who fired upon it... it would be like hanging around for a warp core breach... except you actually have time to move away from one of those. (try arguing what the reaction of the shields would be and you might get somewhere)

Actually you're end is pointless. SW ships do not fire laser beams. They fire particle bolts. The resuling backlash would have no way of reaching the ship that fired the weapon with the possible exception fo the Death Star and Eclipse Star Destroyer. There might be some so of subatomic explosion, but without enough matter between point A and B to conduct it, the effect would be pointless. Simple science here.

Because Dune ships can be at close quarters instantaneously via a foldspace jump and leave the same way... you don't have a warning time to raise a defense.

Actually, most planets have their defenses on all the time. Planets lower their shields to let ships in. As for the ship appearing and disappearing quickly. Going by the movies that still takes several minutes for a navigator to do. So the pop in might be safe, but unload and popping away may not happen fast enough to save the vessel.

Um...... Stoneburner = Destruction of Planet. These are not simple megaton level atomics... actually look into your opponent before making assumptions.

Uh, Stoneburner in Children of Dune did not even destroy a large small portion of a large city. Sorry, but I pay very close attention.

The Dune universe is notorious for centralizing when a threat of significance reaches their borders. In fact, the tech jumps in the Dune universe come from fighting stronger and more advanced opponents... the only time it stagnates is when an era of peace is around and thanks to Leto II it was 3500 years before a crisis happened to make cause for ixian navigation devices. And finally, warp and hyperspace are frail techs compared to instantaneous space travel of the holtzman engines.

Okay, you are failing to see the real picture here. Warp and Hyperspace would free the great houses from the opression of the Emperor and the Guild. No longer would either be needed just to commence trade. The later would still be useful. But they would not have a stranglehold on everything. The Great Houses would gladly turn on the Leto and the Guild becuase they would no longer need them. We saw it happen before in Dune and it will happen again, Fuedal systems are notoriously easy to tear apart from within. besides being a member of the Federation or the Empire would be unprecedented freedom for the people of the Dune universe.

[Sardonic Crisis]

Sardonic, Dune would not be able to penetrate either sides shields... and we could easily overcome dunes shields. Proximity detonation of a dozen photon torps around the shields coupled with a concentrated phaser strike on every shield face would result in an overload of your system, much as the sand storm weakened the shields. Then, we'd use a heavy phaser cannon or a concentrated phaser burst from the primary grid at 110% power to punch thru the shields and vaporize the ship.

Due to Antaran's argument below this attack seems feasible, but a lot of effort and time to expend on each ship. Dune ships outnumber ST. All Dune needs is a feasible attack... something within their tech development.

1. inpredictible yes. subatomic level yes. but how do we know that Holtzman effect is not experienced only during subatomic interaction with EM quantas? we don't. but we do know that atomics don't cause it. so we are safe to presume other nuclear conversion methods (fission, fusion, m-am anihilation) won'c cause it. allso since phasers seam to effect nuclear bonds on at least some level (probably TLs too from the way they desintigrate asteroids) it os quite possible that even those won't cause sub-atomic fusion. there is one way to find out though.
2.if Dune's time to unload is similar to their time to load, i'd say more then 1 min.
3. well a large scale battle is bound to happen sooner or later. especially of Dune attacks some of the shipbuilding centers in ST or SW. or some of their political centers.
4. ah ok. thanx. i might do that. i'm reading Scipio right now, and Greek Mithology is next, but as soon as i'm finished wwith those i might pick up Dune where i left it (Devine Emperor)
5.
A: foldspace (from what i make out of it) is actualy sevear space-time distortion (Event Horizon ,the movie -like) that breatches the boeders of this continuum. basicly what Hyperdrive,Transwarp and Sleapsteem do. or the displacement devices. or any sub-space based tech.
B:the ship would not be in sub-space. sub-space would be used as a medium to reach it's destination-less.
C:knowing the Empirial tendency to shoot first and then shoot more later, i'd say they won't give it much thought. and if they descover it takes to sacrifice 1 of their interdictors to wipe out an entire fleet of enemies, i have no doubt they will do it. hack, even the gutless ST federation civilians would do it.
D: i know. but of phased devices can shift objects betwean diferent space time properties, it will be a metter of time before they start using deflector emisiions, warp bubbles or phaser grids to destabilze the null fields. in any case the first contact with Dune will probably be a great surprise for both sides. but then again all first contacts are. if a full scale war ocurs, UFP level of new-tech developents or adaptation of their current tech, would give them an advantage over the stagnant Dune (well this depends largely on which book you are deriveng your facts on).

1. yes, I grant that ST weapons could be used without reprecussions for the moment. I have to read the Legends of Dune trilogy to get a closer understanding of the mechanics again. And thus the strategy by Kittamaru would be effective. Star wars doesn't have the ability to use TL in wide dispersal like the ST phasers can and would be ineffective on the holtzman shields.

2. I've been considering a formidable weapon that could be used by Dune. We have the capability to fold-jump... and we have stoneburners and obliterators. With the advent of ixian navigation machines it is completely possible for the Dune universe to use these in combination for a weapon akin to transphasic torpedoes. The reason it hadn't been done could be attributed to the holtzman field that ships use causing the jumps to be unsuccesful and ineffective. So payload delivery... 15 secs to set the navigation coordinates and another 15 to jump out for a total of 30 secs in combat.

3. The large scale combat would occur yes, but dune has the better espionage capability and ground force capability and a possibly brilliant tactic (see above) to deal with space encounters.

5. A.They have to realize that it is a ship that is causing the fluctuations before they can do anything about it. And they have to know where the point of origin is.

B. Subspace is a layer of space; while it can be used as a tool when detecting the ships has been figured out, it is ineffective to detect the ship on its own.

C. I seriously doubt that the SW universe could detect null-space and so it wouldn't matter. I mean, sensors couldn't even detect the millenium attached to the star destroyer's hull

D. Like I said before, Dune takes great leaps in tech when there is sufficient crisis. The tech advantage can be overcome by superior tacticians.

This brings me to the point of espionage. Facedancers, Bene Gesserits, and all the Great Houses were expert spies. You have to in a stagnate universe that relies only on severe crisis for progress.

If a visual communication were to happen between a starfleet ship and one led by a bene gesserit, the starfleet ship would be in the command of the bene gesserit within a couple hours by just talking. Voice is a wonderful thing!

[Kittamaru]

What, you have a thermometer that measures heat from a visual medium? I call bullshit there. Wet wood is very hard to light, I know becuase i lived with a wood fiurnace for many years. As for the catapult the only time i saw a catapult shot by the blaster on and AT-ST there was not much left from a direct hit.

BTW an AT-ST is analogous of a current HMMWV. It's a light scouting vehicle that can carry limited troops and has limited firepower.

Yet a modern day HMMWV can take out a tank or a helicopter with it's TOW missiles or .50 cal...

However this does not let ST off any hooks as at least Blasters leave scorch marks, Phasers don;t even manage that 99.9% of the time.

Of course not - when phasers miss their target, they don't fire at full intensity. It's the smart targeting software inside the emitter! *grins* two can play the bullshit game Scott... except I actually have proof of this software

We see them blow gaping molten hot holes in Stormtrooper armor and in ANH see Han's handgun blow massive chunks of ferrocrete out of a wall designed to resist the backblast of plasma engines.

Oh yes, the same Stormtrooper armor that was able to be penetrated by bows and broken by rocks. And ferrocrete doesn't resist the backblast of plasma engines in the slightest you lying creep



there is also this door blasted apart in ANH





Actually the there is no weakness in a diamond crystal structure as the diamond is one massive molecule. And diamond dust would hinder such a cutting process. In actuality gem diamonds are not pure diamonds and have many nonvisible flaws which cuases cleaving. However if we had a perfect diamond, cutting it would be nigh impossible.

Uh, are you stupid? "One Massive Molecule?" It's a fucking crystal... it has fracture slates just like any other crystal. If I had a perfect "insert name of anything here" it'd be hard to cut too.


Alloy was indeed mentioned by Lt. Worf. Same for the Jem' Hadar facilitiy which actually predates the first hominids on earth, as would the Dyson Sphere. Some culture had to deal with what ST refers to as Neutronium and since it acts no different than a super heavy metal it was likely mined especially if they built with it. And considering three radically different technologies designed it is likely that three different ccultures knew how to deal with it. So it must have been at least somewhat common. Especially to build the Dyson sphere.

As for the resistance to Phasers. If it is collapsed matter there is absolutely no atomic or molecular bonds to tear apart. If it is just a heavy, energy resistant metal it is likely just immune to nadion bombardment as it simply takes far too much energy to break apart.

Only problem is that, in TOS, it's origins are clearly stated as being able to only naturally exist in the confines of a super-heavy gravity well... as yours comes from a moon where Han was able to walk without being squished, it isn't Trek neutronium. Now lay this argument to rest before I beat you with a neutronium lined soda bottle


Well, they would agree with you especially since the 93 crash was in a mantle plate plate fold mountain that was actually rock. Not some hill of dirt. Also the speed and condistion of the ship have some influence.

To be a fair approximation of the CIS Invisible hand landing the Eneterprise D Saucer section would have had to been completely unpowered, moving 20 times as fast as it was, and have lost structural integrity due to combat. It also would need only 2 crew and Data and the President of the Federation. Fianlly it would have had been designed specifically not to land even in an emergency.

Not at all, considering the claims YOU make for the Star Wars side and then turn around and say Trek is so weak... but then again, we know you dont' do that, right? *rolls eyes*



Yeah well, I had to yank you too,



Actually, becuase when ever we see something on Star trek that is phased it still is affected by gravity.

Yer a douche scott, face it. You love your fanboy wank and hate the facts that prove you wrong. Go sod off and die.

[SkywalkerJedi]

What, you have a thermometer that measures heat from a visual medium? I call bullshit there. Wet wood is very hard to light, I know becuase i lived with a wood fiurnace for many years. As for the catapult the only time i saw a catapult shot by the blaster on and AT-ST there was not much left from a direct hit.

That is what I was about to say. The blast split the tree into peices. I threw a wet wood in a camp fire at a scout camp, it didn't burn for a long time.

BTW an AT-ST is analogous of a current HMMWV. It's a light scouting vehicle that can carry limited troops and has limited firepower.

AT-ST= All Terein Scout Transport, it is equal to AT-PT. ( all terin personal transport

However this does not let ST off any hooks as at least Blasters leave scorch marks, Phasers don;t even manage that 99.9% of the time.

Remember the Episode on Voyager with the Macroviruses? Here is what happened when Janeway shot a Macrovirus with a phaser rifle: 1 second duration hit, 3 seconds later it explodes into big peices.

We see them blow gaping molten hot holes in Stormtrooper armor and in ANH see Han's handgun blow massive chunks of ferrocrete out of a wall designed to resist the backblast of plasma engines.

And Leia's sporting blaster.

there is also this door blasted apart in ANH

That is made out of Durasteel, let see a phaser do that.

To be a fair approximation of the CIS Invisible hand landing the Eneterprise D Saucer section would have had to been completely unpowered, moving 20 times as fast as it was, and have lost structural integrity due to combat. It also would need only 2 crew and Data and the President of the Federation. Fianlly it would have had been designed specifically not to land even in an emergency.

1. Invisible Hand is not build to land period
2. It is only crew by Anakin Skywalker ( who did most of the work ), Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Palpatine ( that did nothing )
3. The landing did no damage, the Turbolaser scars did



Actually, becuase when ever we see something on Star trek that is phased it still is affected by gravity.[/QUOTE]
So Star Wars can use Gravity Wells.

I improved it a bit.