Star Wars vs Star Trek

[antaran_1979]

I bring back up the Holtzman Shields:

A) I compare lazguns with lasers/turbolaser and phasers; all of them operate under the same premise but just in different manners. They operate at different levels of the light spectrum with different energies to power them.

B) Holtzman Shields react negatively when they come into contact with lazguns, it can be deduced that the same principles would apply to phasers or laser/turbolasers. (The idea behind it is that they react at the subatomic level and can cause a like release of energy in either the shield point or the point of fire; the possibility of this can be explained by quantum theory if you wish ie, wave forms and particle forms etc.)

C) At the end of Book 8 the Machine Empire and the Human empire of the Dune Universe are united.

D) Suicide "drone ships" could be sent against either fleet (Star Wars or Star Trek) utilizing Holtzman shielding and draw fire for the specific purpose of destroying the enemy fleets.

This would result in devastating losses to the Star Wars or Star Trek fleets, the machines, of course, can afford the expense due to their propensity for efficiency.

Edit:
There are, of course, benign spectrums of light that are allowed to pass through the shields, otherwise the ship could not see outside of their own shields. The Holtzman shield reaction must only happen with directed beam weapons. Note: A transporter beam would likely fit this category but that is only a conjecture... tell me your thoughts on the possible interaction of transporter beams and holtzman shielding.

i must say right from the start, that i never got past the Devine Emperor of Dune book. after that the books got to far off the original concept and i lost interest. especially the newer books, not written by Frank himself. so from my limited knowlidge of Dune, here is what follows:

1. the lasers in Dune might be a diferent light spectrum emitters, but neighter phasers/disruptors or turbolaser/laser blasters are light. they both apear to be particle or plasma based weapons. and neighter of them operate on the Holtzman effect which is what is stated to cause the violent reaction of shields and lasers in Dune. especially since the shields in Dune don't stop slow objects, we can deduce for sure that they are fundamentaly diferent then the shields in ST.
2. torpedoes, missiles and other warheads in both ST and SW as well as ion cannons in SW won't suffer from Holtzman's efect. the missile weapons in both SW and ST can be launched at slower speeds, just enough to penetrate Dune's shields.

hence another aproach will be required.

[SkywalkerJedi]

Originally Posted by TW Scott

The largest Fedetation vessle is 700 meters, the largest SW vessel that is not cassified a space station is 2000 meters. Now even a child can tell you that you need stronger material to build a 2000meter structure than you do a 700 meter structure.

Actually, the largest non-station ship, the Executor, was around 17km... Home One is 3km+, as is a Trade Fed battleship... hell, a Mon Cal cruiser is 2300 meters! God Scott, you don't even know the specs on the side you're arguing!


And by the way... V'Ger in Star Trek was NINETY EIGHT kilometers long! 98,000 meters!
Untrue, I said this before, it is 19 KM long not 17 KM long. Techniclly all of the spacestations count as ships, because they are mobeil.
When objects collide with ST vessels they plow deeply in and sometime fly right through the hul without slowing down. When object collide with a SW vessel the explode on the surface like chalk thrown at a brickwall.

That just proves that the forward bulkheads of ships in Star Trek are far stronger than the side bulkheads... as it SHOULD be. Think about it... even today - cars collide head on, both take about the same damage. Car t-bones another car - the car that got hit is pretty much gone, the one that hit it takes FAR less damage! This just means ALL the bulkheads on Star Wars ships suck...
Nope, when the CIS ship ramed the Venators in Clone Wars( The CIS ship ramed the Venator in hyperspace ), only half the ship is destroyed and life support is still on, the Venator got hit from the side.
Every bit of evidence points to ST having weaker hulls than SW.

I provided a pretty succinct counter to the otherwise...
And I countered your's.

In dark orange.

[SkywalkerJedi]

All I have to say is... ouch, that would hurt a might bit. That's a LOT of phaser, disruptor, photon, quantum, pulse phaser, and plasma fire... not to mention polaron torpedoes, plasma torpedoes, and other various fun weapons we dont' see used as much

Centerpoint will crush the fleet into the size of a paperclip. Problem solved. They can make more centerpoint stations using the Star Forge.

[SkywalkerJedi]

i must say right from the start, that i never got past the Devine Emperor of Dune book. after that the books got to far off the original concept and i lost interest. especially the newer books, not written by Frank himself. so from my limited knowlidge of Dune, here is what follows:

1. the lasers in Dune might be a diferent light spectrum emitters, but neighter phasers/disruptors or turbolaser/laser blasters are light. they both apear to be particle or plasma based weapons. and neighter of them operate on the Holtzman effect which is what is stated to cause the violent reaction of shields and lasers in Dune. especially since the shields in Dune don't stop slow objects, we can deduce for sure that they are fundamentaly diferent then the shields in ST.
2. torpedoes, missiles and other warheads in both ST and SW as well as ion cannons in SW won't suffer from Holtzman's efect. the missile weapons in both SW and ST can be launched at slower speeds, just enough to penetrate Dune's shields.

hence another aproach will be required.

They can fire the Centerpoint Station on them, they will be crushed into the size of a paperclip.

[Kittamaru]

In dark orange.

Are you daft...

two ships collide, half of each destroyed... Star Wars

two ships collide, one takes mild damage to the fore decks, one takes severe damage to it's weapons conrol and NOTHING ELSE... Star Trek

tell me, friend, which is the stronger hull?

[Kittamaru]

Centerpoint will crush the fleet into the size of a paperclip. Problem solved. They can make more centerpoint stations using the Star Forge.

No it won't...

1) THIS IS NOT FUCKING CANNON! KEEP IT REAL OR WE WILL CALL IN NON-CANNON FROM TREK! Trust me, you do NOT want that!

2) Centerpoint would never HARM starfleet vessels at all... those missiles would be quickly destroyed upon exiting hyperspace! And then there's the fact we've already shown that our shield grids would survive those with ease!

3) Star Forge will be eaten by a doomsday machine... takes care of THAT problem. BTW - doomsday machine is covered in REAL neutronium, so ANY weapon based on an energy form is USELESS.

[SkywalkerJedi]

They collided in HYPERSPACE, and both have shields on, and life support and the left over systems are still online. Both of them are about the same size ( Kilometer-long ).

[SkywalkerJedi]

No it won't...

1) THIS IS NOT FUCKING CANNON! KEEP IT REAL OR WE WILL CALL IN NON-CANNON FROM TREK! Trust me, you do NOT want that!

2) Centerpoint would never HARM starfleet vessels at all... those missiles would be quickly destroyed upon exiting hyperspace! And then there's the fact we've already shown that our shield grids would survive those with ease!

3) Star Forge will be eaten by a doomsday machine... takes care of THAT problem. BTW - doomsday machine is covered in REAL neutronium, so ANY weapon based on an energy form is USELESS.

1) Acording to my qoutes, it is perfectly canon.
2)Centerpoint don't fire missiles, it can crush Netron stars into the size of a pancake.
3) Acording to my sources, Durasteel have neutronium in it. The only way to destroy the Star Forge is my self-destruct.
4)Centerpoint can just crush the doomsday device
5) Even without the Centerpoint and Star Forge, Open Circle Fleet and Death Squadron can take Romulan/Klingon/ Federation fleet
6) Centerpoint does not use any weapons based on energy

[antaran_1979]

They can fire the Centerpoint Station on them, they will be crushed into the size of a paperclip.

lol that was scientific

[antaran_1979]

They collided in HYPERSPACE, and both have shields on, and life support and the left over systems are still online. Both of them are about the same size ( Kilometer-long ).

excuse me for being ignorant, but what's the big deal of they colided in hypespace?

[antaran_1979]

1) Acording to my qoutes, it is perfectly canon.
2)Centerpoint don't fire missiles, it can crush Netron stars into the size of a pancake.
3) Acording to my sources, Durasteel have neutronium in it. The only way to destroy the Star Forge is my self-destruct.
4)Centerpoint can just crush the doomsday device
5) Even without the Centerpoint and Star Forge, Open Circle Fleet and Death Squadron can take Romulan/Klingon/ Federation fleet
6) Centerpoint does not use any weapons based on energy

by starforge, do you mean like the one in Knights of the Old Republic?

[SkywalkerJedi]

excuse me for being ignorant, but what's the big deal of they colided in hypespace?

Somebody said that raming work perfectly aginst Star Wars.

[SkywalkerJedi]

by starforge, do you mean like the one in Knights of the Old Republic?

Yah. Revan self-destructed it to destroy it.

[antaran_1979]

Somebody said that raming work perfectly aginst Star Wars.

who said that in the first place? and why hyperspace? what's the catch?

[SkywalkerJedi]

I don't know. I said that the only case that did alot of damage is in Clone Wars, when two kilomter long ships collided in hyperspace.

[antaran_1979]

ah, ok then.

[SkywalkerJedi]

If Star Trek do use big fleets, Star Wars will have alot of advantage. If Star Trek use small fleets, they will be destroyed by Star Wars fleets.

[USS Athens]

That's not my point. My point is that any SW ship hull (varying on ship type), is significantly weaker than their ST ship counterparts.

Here is Star Wars battleships.

So, you say the Invisible hand is a battleship?

And it still has horrible hull compared to a light cruiser of the Federation?

[SkywalkerJedi]

So, you say the Invisible hand is a battleship?

And it still has horrible hull compared to a light cruiser of the Federation?

It broke in to because of Turbolaser damage, not because of atmosphere pressure.

[Sardonic Crisis]

1. the lasers in Dune might be a diferent light spectrum emitters, but neighter phasers/disruptors or turbolaser/laser blasters are light. they both apear to be particle or plasma based weapons. and neighter of them operate on the Holtzman effect which is what is stated to cause the violent reaction of shields and lasers in Dune. especially since the shields in Dune don't stop slow objects, we can deduce for sure that they are fundamentaly diferent then the shields in ST.
2. torpedoes, missiles and other warheads in both ST and SW as well as ion cannons in SW won't suffer from Holtzman's efect. the missile weapons in both SW and ST can be launched at slower speeds, just enough to penetrate Dune's shields.

hence another aproach will be required.

To your first point. If they fall under the category of "beam" weapons they operate under the spectrum of light, ie; phasers requiring remodulation of their frequency to overcome borg adaptations. What I'm saying is that focused particles fired at extreme speeds cause the holtzman shields to react. It's the deduction of lasers being focused light particles fired in the same way.

To your second. The holtzman shield does have the fault to allow objects in at slow enough velocity. However, take into account that in space battle kinetic weapons would have no effect on the holtzman shields due to the ships own velocity factoring in. Sure you can slow a torp down to hit a stationary ship but what about one that isn't stationary?