Star Wars vs Star Trek

[antaran_1979]

There are 3 or 4 worlds in Trek:

Star Trek TOS, TNG, Enterprise, Voyager, DS9 + a few official books that are few and far between + all the movies

Star Trek: Book lines

Star Trek: Shatner book lines

Star Trek: Other Books

oh please, don't mention those books. once i read the TMP novelization. it describes warp drive as hyperspace based drive!!! those things are even mora contradicting then the franchises

[antaran_1979]

As for thr Voth against the Empire, even with their superior transporters the Voth would quickly lose as they seem to have minimal concept of war and conflict. Their culture revolves around scientific discovery so in all likelihood would not even fight the Empire, but rather just wish to study certain species and technology.

here i partially agree with TWS. Voth seam very advansed, but i think there is only one episode from which we can analyze them. the only thing in Voyager that describes their capabilities vaguely, is that someone mentioned that Voth are one of the races in Delta quadrant capable of fighting the Borg. i just can't remember who, when and were said it

[antaran_1979]

belay the Borg argument i just checked with memory alpha, the comment was from some novel :P

[TW Scott]

Well, if they don't fight, then they wouldn't lose. And they sure can run fast. They can traverse 90 light years in seconds. And they sure can scan well. They scanned Voyager from 90 light years away, and could even tell there were 148 life forms on board.

Well 90 light years in seconds is still snails crawl tro hyperspace. Imagine 120,000 light years is 2 hours. The Millenium Falcon can actually manage that and ISD's are not too far behind.

As for scanning, Obi-Wan could still detect the gravity of a planet from half the galaxy away, despite it not being on the map. While the ability to detect life forms is a nifty trick, all ST sensors have shown remarkable deficiency in the areas of magnetic, ionic, and gravitational scanning.

If they were forced into battle, they could just shut down the Empire's weapon system by, to put it in simple terms, hacking. If the Jedi were to get on a Voth vessel, they would be forced to use Force only, as the Voth dampening field would shut down their lightsabers.

You are assuming all those weapons on SW vessels are computer controlled. They aren't they all have manual gunners just to avoid the problems of hackers/slicers. Even the Droid Army ships had manual gunners, Droid ones but still manual. There are no computer controlled weapons on the average SW vessel. So hacking would not work.

As for lightsabers they are also partially force weapons so would likely work even in a dampening field, provided the field affected anything like the SW weaponry in the first place.

I guess they wouldn't win, per se, but they would survive. And surviving against the Empire is plenty imo.

Yes they would survive and given the Emperir's intelligence and ability to manipulate would actually probably join the empire and recieve protections. After all why fight an enemy who knows war, excells at war and has many trillions of sentients, some of whom are superior to you in every way.

And their race does not revolve around scientific discovery. It resolves around doctrine. In fact, scientific discovery was talked down upon during a hearing.

However their doctorine has been modified several times in light of scientific discovery. So that is not entirely true. in fact it appeared the Doctorine is just a way to control so called Futureshock, a type of societal disorder tha occurs when things move too quickly.

[Kittamaru]

What a dbl standard Scott... you claim a Trek dampening field might not affect star wars equipment...

as you say that Star Wars neutronium is immune to transpoters because Star Trek neutronium is...


meh

[TW Scott]

What a dbl standard Scott... you claim a Trek dampening field might not affect star wars equipment...

as you say that Star Wars neutronium is immune to transpoters because Star Trek neutronium is...


meh

Well, STar trek Transporters are notoriously fussy. Even sufficent quatities of rock are known for messing up transporters. If nuetronium was the only thing that messed with transporters I would have to say that Star Wars nuetronium might not, however that is not the case at all. So it is not a double standard.

As for the Voth Damping field. We saw it used once and even then it left Voyager with a maojority of it's power, just not the ability to fight or run. We have no other indications on how it works. For all we know it could just make warp impossible by collapsing warp bubbles and simply hacked the computers or even just put up a radiation field that made Phasers and Photons beyond wortless. A a brief glimpse of their abilities tells us nothing.

[antaran_1979]

1.Well 90 light years in seconds is still snails crawl tro hyperspace. Imagine 120,000 light years is 2 hours. The Millenium Falcon can actually manage that and ISD's are not too far behind.

2.You are assuming all those weapons on SW vessels are computer controlled. They aren't they all have manual gunners just to avoid the problems of hackers/slicers. Even the Droid Army ships had manual gunners, Droid ones but still manual. There are no computer controlled weapons on the average SW vessel. So hacking would not work.

3.Yes they would survive and given the Emperir's intelligence and ability to manipulate would actually probably join the empire and recieve protections. After all why fight an enemy who knows war, excells at war and has many trillions of sentients, some of whom are superior to you in every way.

.

1. Voyager-Endgame states that Borg Transwarp system can send ships anywhere in the galaxy within minutes. however there is no way of telling Voth use the same system. after all hubs may provide faster FTL then stanalone units.
2.no doubt about this one. that is probabnly why they can't hit anything most of the time. their level of automatization is awfull :P
3. Empier's inteligence??? the empirials showed many aspects of their nature, but inteligence was not one of those

[antaran_1979]

on Voth tech:

Technologically advanced, they possess transwarp capabilities, as well as being able to scan from a distance of over ninety light years with significant accuracy, even down to the individual lifeform readings.

Some starships in the Voth fleet are massive and extremely powerful in comparison with Starfleet vessels – The Voth were able to beam the USS Voyager into a chamber inside their vessel which could clearly house many more starships. This transport was accomplished despite Voyager's shields being raised. The Voth were also able to take command of the ship's computer, shut the majority of systems down, and take primary power offline. The dampening field used to create this effect managed to render tricorders, communicators and phasers useless.

The Voth also have spatial displacement capabilities – a form of cloaking technology that moved their starships or even individuals out of phase. Their personal spatial displacement system could be disrupted by altering a phaser to a dispersion frequency of approximately 1.85 GHz.

[antaran_1979]

put up a radiation field that made Phasers and Photons beyond wortless. A a brief glimpse of their abilities tells us nothing.

radiation makes photon torpedoes or ship phasers useless??? i know of hand phasers requiring adaptatopns to operate in radiation environements. but ships work constantly in open space (high radiation levels), and during torpedo detonations radiation is a standard byproduct, still phasers seam to to operate allright.

[TW Scott]

1. Voyager-Endgame states that Borg Transwarp system can send ships anywhere in the galaxy within minutes. however there is no way of telling Voth use the same system. after all hubs may provide faster FTL then stanalone units.
2.no doubt about this one. that is probabnly why they can't hit anything most of the time. their level of automatization is awfull :P
3. Empier's inteligence??? the empirials showed many aspects of their nature, but inteligence was not one of those

1: The hub was only used for about 25% of the trip, easily detectable and apparrantly takes some effort to build and is vulnerable. The only reason to hide it inside nebula's is you want the enemy at disadvatage when attacking.

2: Star Wars actually has no worse a shot record than Star Trek, they just fire many many more times in the movies than you see in Star Trek. I will submit the case of the Duras sisters firing on the Enterprise-D. They missed as often as they hit and Enterprise D is the proverbial broad side of a barn.

As for Automation making things easier to hit. Not exactly true when you experience high levels of ECM and jamming. Star Wars vessels use manual gunners becuase it is much harder to fool 120 gunners than it is 1 computer.

3: Actually the Emperor acurately predicted the actions of every enemy he faced except Luke Skywalker. If not for Luke he would have destroyed Yavin base and Vader would not have turned back to the Light. However against every other foe he has been able to pull off a victory and do it beneath their nose. Even the failed Trade Federation invasion of Naboo was a victory as he got exactly what he had wanted.

[TW Scott]

radiation makes photon torpedoes or ship phasers useless??? i know of hand phasers requiring adaptatopns to operate in radiation environements. but ships work constantly in open space (high radiation levels), and during torpedo detonations radiation is a standard byproduct, still phasers seam to to operate allright.

Well, I was just supposing possible arguments. We have seen where some strange radiation effects have crippled hand phasers so it is not that far off a thought. However just assuming they can shut down all technology when they only used the ability once is just not good debate material.

As for their transporter, it is effective, but we have seen that certain transporter effect can pierce some shields. However we have never seen any transporter pierce a multiple of problems or shields as powerful as a ISD shields must be.

[antaran_1979]

1: The hub was only used for about 25% of the trip
2: Star Wars actually has no worse a shot record than Star Trek, they just fire many many more times in the movies than you see in Star Trek. I will submit the case of the Duras sisters firing on the Enterprise-D. They missed as often as they hit and Enterprise D is the proverbial broad side of a barn.

As for Automation making things easier to hit. Not exactly true when you experience high levels of ECM and jamming. Star Wars vessels use manual gunners becuase it is much harder to fool 120 gunners than it is 1 computer.

3: Actually the Emperor acurately predicted the actions of every enemy he faced except Luke Skywalker.

1. we did not understand eachother well. when voyager discoveres the hub they want to destroy it becuse the Borg can use it to send ships anywhere in the galaxy within minutes. thus transwarp method of FTL via hubs is a very fast way of getting anywhere.
2. ECM might work on some targeting systems, but most of ST uses visual scanners (some weir method that can work on millions of km away). it's just bad eficiency for the Empire. they fire 10 times to hit once, while in UFP they make every shot counts. but true, in ST there are people that like manual fire (like many Klingons do) and pulse weapons are obviosly less precise then beams or torpedoes. i wonder why the beam weapons (phasers and disruptors) apear faster then their pulse variants most of the time?
3. another misunderstanding. i though you ment the empire, as the staff the empire employs, not the empereor himslef. yes the emperor is one of the most inteligent sapients i've seen in science fiction.

[antaran_1979]

Well, I was just supposing possible arguments. We have seen where some strange radiation effects have crippled hand phasers so it is not that far off a thought. However just assuming they can shut down all technology when they only used the ability once is just not good debate material.

As for their transporter, it is effective, but we have seen that certain transporter effect can pierce some shields. However we have never seen any transporter pierce a multiple of problems or shields as powerful as a ISD shields must be.

agreed. we have no way of knowing how their dampers work. maybe it's possible to jam them. maybe they only work on EPS systems. maybe they regulate nuclear reactions. it's inconclusive. as for why hand phasers need modifications to operate in high radiation environements, i have a speculations. we know that the phaser beam/pulse is generated by some sort of reaction in the emitter crystal, and that nadion particles and weal nuclear forces are involved. so maybe this crystal can be rendered inert by ionizing radiation. however ship level phasers apear well insulated (since they never failed to operate even in heavy combat and nebual conditions).

the transporter vs shield argument is a complex one. so far there are at least 2 types of transporters in ST, standard and sub-space. we can only guess how displacement and trans-phasic tech can influence transoperter developement. some transpoerters may be able to penetrate shields some may not. and for UFP level of tech, sensor eficiency will be a major issue. they can't transoprt to a place their sensors cant penetrate.

[SkywalkerJedi]

YES!

You got it!

What we are debating is the G-canon only universe (actually, I think Clone Wars cartoon is also in there, but isn't G-Canon, but T-Canon). We don't do EU because that isn't the world that Lucas dreamed of, and is generally full of issues that cause more problems than it solves.

Star Trek has the same thing; it has two (well, three, I think Shatner has his own) worlds. The TV and movies, which is canon, and the other stuff.

Acording to my qoute he said that he is not destined to tell the EU storys, and they are apart of the saga. And my other qoute states, that he is not in charge of whats canon.

[SkywalkerJedi]

on Voth tech:

Technologically advanced, they possess transwarp capabilities, as well as being able to scan from a distance of over ninety light years with significant accuracy, even down to the individual lifeform readings.

Some starships in the Voth fleet are massive and extremely powerful in comparison with Starfleet vessels – The Voth were able to beam the USS Voyager into a chamber inside their vessel which could clearly house many more starships. This transport was accomplished despite Voyager's shields being raised. The Voth were also able to take command of the ship's computer, shut the majority of systems down, and take primary power offline. The dampening field used to create this effect managed to render tricorders, communicators and phasers useless.

The Voth also have spatial displacement capabilities – a form of cloaking technology that moved their starships or even individuals out of phase. Their personal spatial displacement system could be disrupted by altering a phaser to a dispersion frequency of approximately 1.85 GHz.

Once the Star Destroyer is in the ship, advantage them, they can fire all of their weapons at once and destroy their ship.

[daveeb]

120,000 light years in 2 hours is slower than 90 light years in 5 seconds.

90/5 = 18 light years per second for Voth.
120,000 / (2 hours * 60 minutes * 60 seconds) = 120,000 / 7,200 = 8.33 light years per second.

Voth are faster by 10 light years per second.

Voth sensors have not shown those problems with scanning. They are incredibly accurate.

The Voth Dampening field shut down everything but life support.

Voth cloaking technology is unparalleled.

I'm not saying the Voth could beat the Empire. That is stupid. I AM saying that they could survive the Empire. They can evade them. They would survive. Only a Jedi could accurately track their location using the force. And even then, it is not like they could catch up with them after tracking them.

And yes, if anything, the Voth would join the Empire. And, they would be quite happy with it.

And the doctrine prevented their people from realizing their true origins. I'd say that doctrine overrules 47 matching chromosomes with humans and other key evidence.

Once again, I'm not saying the Voth could destroy the Empire. I'm saying that they could evade and survive the onslaught of the Empire whilst the Empire is destroying the Borg, the Dominion, and all of the Alpha Quadrant powers.

[Hellblade8]

Acording to my qoute he said that he is not destined to tell the EU storys, and they are apart of the saga. And my other qoute states, that he is not in charge of whats canon.

What he's saying is that he's only in charge of his world. He wants other people to play in EU, and have their own world to play in. That's why he won't let anyone add more movies to it.

He isn't in charge of the other world because as an artist, he feels that he has no right to intervene, aside from setting the base setting, which is why you have the levels of canon there.

[SkywalkerJedi]

120,000 light years in 2 hours is slower than 90 light years in 5 seconds.

90/5 = 18 light years per second for Voth.
120,000 / (2 hours * 60 minutes * 60 seconds) = 120,000 / 7,200 = 8.33 light years per second.

Voth are faster by 10 light years per second.

Voth sensors have not shown those problems with scanning. They are incredibly accurate.

The Voth Dampening field shut down everything but life support.

Voth cloaking technology is unparalleled.

I'm not saying the Voth could beat the Empire. That is stupid. I AM saying that they could survive the Empire. They can evade them. They would survive. Only a Jedi could accurately track their location using the force. And even then, it is not like they could catch up with them after tracking them.

And yes, if anything, the Voth would join the Empire. And, they would be quite happy with it.

And the doctrine prevented their people from realizing their true origins. I'd say that doctrine overrules 47 matching chromosomes with humans and other key evidence.

Once again, I'm not saying the Voth could destroy the Empire. I'm saying that they could evade and survive the onslaught of the Empire whilst the Empire is destroying the Borg, the Dominion, and all of the Alpha Quadrant powers.

TW Scott is mistaken, 2 hours for more then 120,000 parsec for a Class-1 hyperdrive ( Standard warship rating ), so it is 271.6666666666667+ lightyears per 5 seconds. They can fire all their Turbolasers and Ion Cannons, do not forget that they are manual. And they can fire missiles at the ship. They can send a fleet of Interdictor Star Destroyers and Lucrehulk-class battleships surronding the system, soon as they go to warp, they will get pulled back from warp with 4 Gravity-Well projectors that each have the gravity of a planetary mass then they start shooting and crushing the ships. Now while a fleet is taking care of Voth, the remaining fleets will take the Dominions, CIS will take the Borgs and Republic will take the UFP, each at their advantage.
1. Republic ships are manuverable and almost all Star Destroyers.
2.CIS Droids can't be hacked or assimulated.
3. Imperial ships might be unmanuverable, but they have good firepower.

If Voth is willing to cooperate, they will be more then welcome to, and they will be shown mercy from destruction.

[SkywalkerJedi]

What he's saying is that he's only in charge of his world. He wants other people to play in EU, and have their own world to play in. That's why he won't let anyone add more movies to it.

He isn't in charge of the other world because as an artist, he feels that he has no right to intervene, aside from setting the base setting, which is why you have the levels of canon there.

Excatly, G-Canon is the altimate canon, anything that contradicted with it is non-canon.
C-canon is the Lucasfilm licienced EU.
T-canon is Clone Wars, right after G-canon.

[SkywalkerJedi]

1. we did not understand eachother well. when voyager discoveres the hub they want to destroy it becuse the Borg can use it to send ships anywhere in the galaxy within minutes. thus transwarp method of FTL via hubs is a very fast way of getting anywhere.
2. ECM might work on some targeting systems, but most of ST uses visual scanners (some weir method that can work on millions of km away). it's just bad eficiency for the Empire. they fire 10 times to hit once, while in UFP they make every shot counts. but true, in ST there are people that like manual fire (like many Klingons do) and pulse weapons are obviosly less precise then beams or torpedoes. i wonder why the beam weapons (phasers and disruptors) apear faster then their pulse variants most of the time?
3. another misunderstanding. i though you ment the empire, as the staff the empire employs, not the empereor himslef. yes the emperor is one of the most inteligent sapients i've seen in science fiction.

1. They can pull them out of warp
2. When they tractor them into their ship, they will find out it is not a wise Idea, because all their weapons can fire at the same time.
3. Republic have Jedi to use Battle Meditation to perdict movements ( Only gifted and experieced Jedi can do this )
4. They don't need the emporer, Vader alone can do this and so can Thrawn ( and Jedi that know Battle Meditation )