The fall of the Republic?

Discussion in 'Business & Economics' started by Michael, Nov 16, 2007.

  1. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    A Fiscal ‘Tsunami’

    David Walker can sound like a modern-day prophet of doom, warning about the gross irresponsibility of his countrymen and the disaster that awaits them if nothing is done. Put a scraggly beard on him, replace the neatly pressed suit with a tattered frock, and you could drop a coin in his cup and walk on by. But Walker is frighteningly sane. A former partner at Arthur Andersen LLP, he has been the comptroller general of the United States and head of the Government Accountability Office since he was appointed to a 15-year term in 1998. The GAO is a nonpartisan agency that investigates, on behalf of Congress, how the government is performing. It then issues thoroughly researched and often critical reviews. If the federal government is not spending taxpayers' money effectively, it's Walker's job to holler. He's hollering now—mainly about a severe fiscal crisis that will strike the United States as baby boomers reach retirement age. His fears are supported by economists from the left-leaning Brookings Institution and the conservative Heritage Foundation.


    Apparently Walker likened the situation here in the United States to the fall of the Roman Republic.

    Are things really that bad in the USA?
    Michael
     
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  3. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    This was interesting:

    Sum up for me the fiscal situation with Medicare and Medicaid. How long will those programs be sustainable? Well, they're not sustainable right now. Let me just give you some statistics to put it in perspective. Social Security is underfunded [meaning there's a gap between dedicated funding and benefits] by $6 trillion in current-dollar terms. Medicare is underfunded by over $32 trillion in current-dollar terms, of which the Medicare prescription-drug benefit is underfunded by $8 trillion.
     
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  5. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    What about the notion that we can grow our way out of this, that if you lower taxes and get more growth and more taxable revenue, that somehow we will find a way out?
    There is no way we can grow our way out of these problems. We would have to grow at double-digit, real GDP growth for decades in order to close the gap that we currently face, absent reforms. We haven't grown at that rate in modern times, and we are not going to grow at that rate.



    Didn't Bush say that the tax break for the mega-rich was the only way to grow our way out of debt? :bugeye:
     
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  7. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Just for perspective, can you compare the size of this fiscal "tsunami" [to the size of particular spending programs]?
    Well, you could decide not to renew the Bush tax cuts, you could eliminate all foreign aid, eliminate all earmarks, eliminate NASA, eliminate the National Endowment for Humanities and eliminate the entire Defense Department tomorrow, and you still wouldn't solve the problem.


    This much doom and gloom is way to much for Americans to take in. It simply doesn't fit with out psyche. We'd rather wait until the very last minute and then when shit hits the fan run a muck. I wouldn't want to be an ultra-rich arse hole come that day!
     
  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    The Brookings Institution, and in particular its economic stuff, is not left leaning.

    Social Security is fine if it's tweaked to be an honest welfare setup and the debt owed it by the Federal Government is paid back. Medicare is fixable in theory, by adoption of any of the better functioning European delivery systems - "socialised medicine".

    The central problem is the dependence of the economy on steadily increasing military expenditures - like an alcoholic's blood level, it needs to keep rising to keep having the effect - and the accumulation of wealth in the upper class. These are both fixable problems - not that it won't be painful.
     
  9. maxg Registered Senior Member

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    710
    I thought one of the most interesting quotes from him was

    Of course as long as people keep hearing "healthcare reform" translated into "socialist takeover of the healthcare system" there isn't going to be any effort on that front.
     
  10. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    of a solicialist approach to medicine is better than the us current system
     
  11. maxg Registered Senior Member

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    True, but the point I was making is that any attempt to reform the system gets shut down by claiming fully socialized medicine is the only option.
     
  12. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    I wonder ......how many people in the world have walked around predicting the end of something or other in the past?

    We know Chicken Little did it ...."THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!"

    Baron Max
     
  13. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    I fought for this country and at one time would have died for it. But now, I could not say I would do so. I am thinking about leaving the country. It is not the country I thought I knew. Ultimately, we are heading for a massive financial and political disaster. The country is not being managed, it is being sold to the highest bidder. And it used to be that the election process held some hope for me about the future of our country. But now, when I see who we have to choose from on the Republican side and Hillary, makes me want to puke. If you have money, you can have anything in this country. This country is no longer the land of the free and will soon not be the home of the brave either. Who wants to die to satisfy George W's revenge against Sadam for trying to kill his daddie? Who wants to die, so that corporate america can continue to sell poisoned foods and toys to our families? Who wants to live in a place that wants to errode what freedoms you may have. Who wants to live in a place where justice is determined by your policical connections and the money in your wallet?
     
  14. Nickelodeon Banned Banned

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    And go where?
     
  15. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Europe, Canada
     
  16. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Funny, when the Roman Empire was pagan and immoral by our standards, it grew and it thrived. It was only after it converted to Christiantity did it become corrupt in ways that led to its downfall.
     
  17. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Coincidence perhaps, but that wasn't the reason for Rome collapsing. Rome collapsed under the weight of population that it could NOT provide for ...there were just too fuckin' many people for the available services. Sorta' like New York City, Los Angeles, London, etc, huh?

    Baron Max
     
  18. jlocke Registered Senior Member

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    The conversion to Christianity played a huge part in the fall of the Roman empire. You've got that amount of people, all pagan, and all of a sudden you want to go around destroying their temples? With that sort of ill will, how were they expected to keep loyal to the empire? Also the empire spent lots and lots of money building churches.
     
  19. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Destroying temples? ...a few radical individuals?

    C'mon, if you're going to try to blame Christianity for the fall of the Roman Empire then I'd like to see your evidence of it.

    Now if you'd have said, "The damned mamby-pamby, doo-gooder, bleeding-heart liberals caused Rome to fall." ...then I'd believe you without any proof or evidence, because I can see the same thing happening in the big cities today.

    Baron Max
     
  20. jlocke Registered Senior Member

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    At no point did I blame Christianity for the fall of the Roman Empire, I was just saying that it definitely played a part, it wasn't "coincidence".
     
  21. maxg Registered Senior Member

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    Well within the context of the Roman Empire Christianity=Namby Pamby Liberals (at least that's Gibbon's argument) who couldn't or wouldn't stand up to the barbarians. They were pacifists for Christ's sake.
     
  22. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Yeah, perhaps. And that's something similar to what's happening in US cities all across the nation .....the mamby-pamby liberals won't stand up to the barbarians (criminals), so we're seeing many similarities to the fall of Rome.

    Baron Max
     
  23. Till Eulenspiegel Registered Member

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    The Roman Empire fell for a number of reasons. The empire grew too large, unwieldy and expensive to run. More money was going out of Rome than was coming in. Romaqns became complacent and farmed out their security to mercenary soldiers who had to be paid from the public treasury and whose loyalty could not be depended on. The borders were too long to effectively defend. These were the internal reasons. There were also external reasons such as the movement of peoples and tribes outside the empire.
     

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