Should illegal aliens be given driver's licenses?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Till Eulenspiegel, Nov 13, 2007.

  1. Till Eulenspiegel Registered Member

    Messages:
    419
    There is a big debate in New York State concerning Governor Spitzer's intention of giving driver's licenses to illegal aliens. Even though New York is among the most liberal of states opposition to the governor's plan is overwhelming.

    What do you think? Should driver's licenses be restricted to those who are citizens or who are in the United States legally or not?

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    Voters may dump Spitzer over license plan

    Gov. Eliot Spitzer's favorability rating has dropped to an all-time low of 41 percent, and has left only 25 percent of voters planning to re-elect him, according to a poll the Siena Research Institute released Tuesday. (Mike Groll, Associated Press / July 19, 2007)



    BY MELISSA MANSFIELD | melissa.mansfield@newsday.com
    1:48 PM EST, November 13, 2007

    ALBANY - Things aren't getting better for Gov. Eliot Spitzer as a new Siena poll out Tuesday morning showed that less than half of New Yorkers have a favorable opinion of him. Thirty-three percent of New Yorkers say he is doing a good job, while 64 percent say its fair or poor.

    This governor had a 75 percent favorability rating in January when he took office.

    Seven of ten voters who know about the governor's plan to give undocumented immigrants licenses oppose his original plan and two-thirds oppose the new three-tier system.


    Poll: How do you feel about Spitzer Vote
    "He changed the plan, but he hasn't changed the mind of the voters. New plan, old plan, it just doesn't matter - New Yorkers continue to overwhelmingly oppose the governor on his plan," said Siena Poll spokesman Steven Greenberg. "The governor has American's Homeland Security secretary agreeing with him that the state will have one of the most secure licensing systems in the nation, but by a three-to-two margin, New Yorkers don't buy it."

    When asked about the governor's revised plan that would have three different license options, 65 percent opposed it, five percent less than the original plan.

    The poll was conducted the first week of November, by telephone, to 625 registered voters. The margin of error is 3.9 percent.

    http://www.newsday.com/news/local/state/ny-stpoll1114,0,4106930.story?coll=ny_home_rail_headlines
     
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  3. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Driving has nothing to do with citizenship. What are you going to do? Maybe these Mexicans can drive to Mexico if they have licenses.
     
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  5. Till Eulenspiegel Registered Member

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    Driver's licenses are used as a legal form of identification when boarding an airplane or when cashing a check. If there is nothing backing up their validity what use will they be as a form of identification?

    Isn't giving them driver's licenses rewarding lawbreakers? If you have no legal right to be in the country how can you have a legal right to an official document of that country?
     
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  7. countezero Registered Senior Member

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    5,590
    I lived in another country for a year. At no time did I have a Driver's license in that country. It amazes me that people think our government ought to give people who are actively engaged in criminal behavior an official document that aids in that illicit behavior.
     
  8. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    54,036
    You can put something on it to identify the person as a non-citizen. I have a mark on there that says I can drive a motorbike and I need to be wearing corrective lenses.
     
  9. countezero Registered Senior Member

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    5,590
    I think you're confusing the issue. If non-citizens are here legally, that is if they have a green card or work permit, I'm pretty sure they can obtain a driver's license.

    However, in the scenario you mention, if we're giving non-citizens something like that, the common sense would demand we investigate that person's status to determine what it is. If they say they're illegal or found to be illegal, the license is moot. They should be arrested and deported.
     
  10. shichimenshyo Caught in the machine Registered Senior Member

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    I agree, if you are not a legal citizen or a non citizen with a work permit or green card then you have no right to own a license.
     
  11. maxg Registered Senior Member

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    710
    Well Spitzer's revised plan allows them to get a license that can't be used to board planes or cross the boarder. So those objections seem moot now.

    I also don't see how giving them driver's licenses is rewarding them. The intent is to keep them from driving without a license and without insurance (which is required in NY)--it's to help the people and the gov't of NY (including the police) not to help people who have to pay for a license, pay to register their car, & pay to get insurance.

    Would you rather have people fleeing accidents and being unable to reimburse people who they hit or would you rather not? If someone is wanted by the police do you want an address on file for them or would prefer to have no idea where they've lived?
     
  12. countezero Registered Senior Member

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    5,590
    Let me address that.

    I think it's worth pointing out that the problem that is trying to be corrected here has little or nothing to do with a license and everything to do with personal responsibility.

    For example, as a student abroad, I could rent and drive a car even though I had no license in that country and no applicable insurance. However, if I wrecked, I was liable for what happened. Ostensibly, Spitzer (and others) say this license business is being proposed to make the roads "safer." That is, it will allow the government to track the illegals and ensure they have insurance, so that when they wreck, they can be held accountable.

    There's nothing that convinces me that this will correct that problem. People can get a license without insurance and they can allow insurance to lapse. What's to stop an illegal with a license from not showing up at court (the way they do now, without the license)? Nothing. The addresses they give will be wrong or out-of-date. And if they wreck, they will disappear, just as they do now — license or no license.
     
  13. MacGyver1968 Fixin' Shit that Ain't Broke Valued Senior Member

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    I doubt very seriously any illegal alien would actually apply, for fear of being deported. It's a ridiculous idea.
     
  14. Pandaemoni Valued Senior Member

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    We all know that they are here...the choice isn't really between having them be here licensed or not be here at all. The choice is between having illegals who are generally good drivers versus having illegals who are generally bad drivers.

    These are people who are going to be driving on our streets licensed or not. I'd rather they learn the rules of the road and demonstrate the minimum competency that having a license requires than simply drive according to the traffic laws (if any) of their own nation. If the feds want to crack down on them, I'm okay with that too (though they provide a lot of services up here in NYC), but yammering about states giving them drivers licenses just suggests that the federal strategy is "bury your head in the sand if you don't see the illegals, then they don't exist!" The problem with Spitzer's plan is that it forces everyone to admit the truth, that there are a lot of illegals here, so many that number driving without licenses is a significant problem all by itself.

    It's not a reward for them, it's just one solution to that real problem. How else do you handle it at the State level? The answer isn't "deport them" because New York State can't do that (and the feds don't seem to have the capacity or interest for that). Emergency Backup Answer: make sure they know how to drive. It's not a reward for them, it's a reward for all the people they'd have been in accidents with over the coming years.

    Personally, i have no problem if airlines stop accepting driver's licenses. It should be passports only, imo.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2007
  15. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    There's another problem that everyone here is overlooking: you have to have a drivers license to get insurance. The system as it is now actively prevents illegal immigrants from carrying auto insurance. So, before we get all worked up about how irresponsible they are, let's at least give them a chance to do the right thing and get auto insurance.

    Another point: immigration is the concern of the federal government, drivers licenses are handled at the state level. So, anyone wishing to turn the state DMVs into enforcement tools against illegal immigrants is asking the states to shoulder the costs of federal policies and (in)actions.
     
  16. Till Eulenspiegel Registered Member

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    419
    Please explain how giving an illegal alien a driver's license turns him from a poor driver into a good driver.

    As far as liability is concerned the licenses proposed by Governor Spitzer do not address the issue.

    Pandaemoni, you say they are going to be here anyway as if that is some reason to reward them. By issuing them driver's licenses the government would be de facto recognizing that they have a legal right to be here. They don't have that right and rather athan being given driver's licenses they should be deported to their home countries.
     
  17. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    Kind of like how collecting taxes on their income is de facto recognition that they have a legal right to be here?
     
  18. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Explain why anyone should have a driver's license? A license is not a reward, nor does it entitle anyone to live in the US. It is issued by the state gov. not the federal gov. By your same reasoning, teens shouldn't be able to get condoms because it means they can have sex. Let's deal with the reality, teens are doing it, and illegals are driving.

    You cannot deport them, that's just wishful thinking.
     
  19. Pandaemoni Valued Senior Member

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    3,634
    Because you have to pass a test of your driving skills to get it. There is a written part and an actual road test, where you must meet certain standards. In meeting the standards, you generally have to train, learn the rules and maneuvers and practice driving under the instruction of an already licensed driver.

    As far as I know, Spitzer is not talking about waiving the skill requirements to get that license, just to open it up so that U.S. residency does not need to be established as a prerequisite.

    How would it recognize their "right" to be here? By giving driver's licenses to wife beaters, do we condone spousal abuse? Perhaps we should not give wife beaters driver's licenses then.

    All that a driver's license "recognizes" is your right to drive a car according the standards of the State that issued it. Secondarily, it used to also be pretty good proof that you were a citizen or legal resident, and Spitzer's plan would change that. If you have $100 and half an hour though, you can already get a fake I.D. in New York that seems to establish residency, to the value of the driver's license on that point declined a long time ago. Moreover, the legislation would make fake driver's licenses in circulation less useful since they could no longer be used as proof of residency.

    And as for "that is some reason to reward them" nice how you put the word 'reward' in my mouth. I don't see it as a reward. I see it as a way of dealing with the problem of illegal immigrants who don't know the rules of the road, yet drive anyway. Giving them a license is not some sneaky way of saying, "Welcome to America! Good job sneaking in! Hehehe." I see it more as saying, "I don't care who you are or how you got here, but if you're in my state, learn how to fuckin' drive before you get behind the wheel."
     
  20. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    No. I do not think Illegals should be allowed to get state drivers licenses.
     
  21. redarmy11 Registered Senior Member

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    Should Americans ditch the term 'illegal alien'? I don't know of anyone using this derogatory terminology outside of the USA.

    My first thought was: "Why would they need drivers licences when they have UFOs?"

    So it confuses us foreigners as much as anything else.

    As for the question in hand: I'm undecided.
     
  22. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    1,654
    PC language sucks.

    How about Documentation Challenged Migrants?

    Felon....
    Lawful Compliance Deficients?

    nah, illegals is easier to type
     
  23. Pandaemoni Valued Senior Member

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    3,634

    It's not a felony to merely be here illegally, unless they changed the law. The criminality of being in the U.S. without documentation depends on circumstances...specifically whether or not you've been previously deported and came back. See, for example this opinion (stating, "[W]hile an illegal alien is subject to deportation, that person's ongoing presence in the United States in and of itself is not a crime unless that person had been previously deported and regained illegal entry into this country....If [defendant] entered the country in violation of 8 U.S.C. § 1325 but has not previously been deported, his ongoing presence is not a crime though he is subject to deportation.") That is why some people use "undocumented alien."

    That said "alien" is the right word. It doesn't mean "extra-terrestrial" but "foreigner." It's applied to extra-terrestrials because they are the ultimate foreigners.
     

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