Illussion of Freedom

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Thoreau, Nov 9, 2007.

  1. Thoreau Valued Senior Member

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    3,380
    Another thread regarding free speech encouraged me to create this...

    Ok, so the issue is Freedom and why I believe that freedom does not exist ANYWHERE in the world.

    People always refer to America as a free nation.
    "Freedom isn't free"
    "Land of the free"
    Blah blah blah blah...

    How can we be a "free nation" when we have so many rules and laws telling us what we can do. Yes, we have more rights than some other countries, however we are far from being "free."

    I believe this because the purpose of government is to control its people. And while government exists, freedom does not.

    A few examples of how freedom is an illusion...

    Taxes
    What happens when we don't pay?
    We go to jail.
    Its a rule we all must obide by in order to keep from being locked in a 4x5 concrete box.
    Hell, you can't even buy a car or home without having someone tell you that you have to pay this and pay that. You can't send your kids to school or buy a ding dong without having to pay taxes.

    Civil Rights
    Its nearly 2008 and certain groups in our society STILL don't have equal rights because the government prohibits them. Ex. Homosexuals still not being recognized by the government; the ONLY citizens in this country that can't marry another human being. And it wasn't until recently that women couldn't vote, african americans were slaves, interracial relationship were banned and native american's were slaughtered.

    Travel
    We have limitations on were we can travel and when. 1st we need to get a passport, because without one, your not getting back in. Secondly, if you have family in Mexico, or anywhere else for that matter outside the US, and you want to visit, you have to tell your government why you want to leave the country, how long you'll be gone, and also go through hell and back when you try to come home.

    Credit
    For example, lets say your 40 years old and you've never established credit. Good luck buying a house to provide shelter for your family, that is unless your going to pay in cash. Credit is the evil of America. With it, you remain in debt, without it, you can't buy the important things in life, like a home or vehicle. *unless you pay in cash*

    Laws and Rules
    Refferring to those set forth by state and federal government in order to control its people. Again, there is thousands of things listed in this country telling us what we can do, what we can't do, how to live, even how to have sex and restricting WHO you can have sex with. Yes. Its true. Example, up until 2003, it was ILLEGAL for two members of the same sex to have sexual relations in Texas. In the military, there is a specific law in the UCMJ stating that you can only have sex in the missionary position. If you have sex any other way, it is a violation of the UCMJ and punishable by Article 15. You think I'm bullshitting you? No. Go look it up. We can't even get medical care if we are dying if we don't play by the rules.

    These are just a few examples explaining the illussion of freedom.

    So here is where I sit back and wait for the patriotic nutbags to come in and tell me I'm a traitor and that we are free and blah blah blah.

    I love my country, I don't love government.
     
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  3. shichimenshyo Caught in the machine Registered Senior Member

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    The problem with not having a government is that there would be almost no social structure. It would be chaos with just a bit of sanity in between. I know that alot of what the government does is out of line with a "free" society, but we need at least some form of structure to function as a nation. Take away the government take away your standard of living.
     
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  5. Thoreau Valued Senior Member

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    Great explanation! :thumbsup::cheers:
     
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  7. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Freedom, total, complete freedom, is simply an idealistic myth.

    No human can be free ...ever. If nothing else, he isn't free from hunger and thirst.

    Any discussion about real life "freedom" can only be meaningful if you're willing to accept compromises on the definitions of "freedom". If you only want to use the idealistic version, then there is no discussion to be made ....there simply is no such thing.

    Baron Max
     
  8. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    The problem is that the Native Americans lived without a government for

    thousands of years .
     
  9. Thoreau Valued Senior Member

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    they lived under tribal governments.
     
  10. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    That's completely incorrect, just as the OP said to you in his response!

    Tribal governments consisted of an occasional single Chief but also very commonly was a Council of Elders. The Great Coosa Nation in the Southeast - primarily the state of Alabama but also extending to the adjacent states - carried it even farther than that and had a national council of chiefs and elders. (They even extended as far as the the northern part of your current state of residence.)
     
  11. Thoreau Valued Senior Member

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    Thats a great explanation. Reminds me of my great-grandmother talking about her tribe when I was a child.
     
  12. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    You need to read up on "The State of Nature", that is, life for humans before government. As Hobbs said, life under such conditions would be:
    ‘solitary, poore, nasty, brutish, and
    short’.​


    Without government, there would be anarchy. A war of "all against all". Before long, strong men and war lords would seize power.

    America was founded on the idea that government exists to secure the inherent rights of man.of individuals. This is in stark contrast to such ideas as the divine right or kings or the dictatorship of the proletariat.

    Yes, we sometimes fall short of our ideals. But a nation built on a foundation of liberty and freedom is far superior to anarchy.
     
  13. Killian_1_4 Registered Senior Member

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    108
    Is there such thing as too much freedom?
     
  14. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    Certainly. When people aren't restrained by law from freely abusing each other's basic rights.
     
  15. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    MZ3Boy84,

    Define "freedom".
     
  16. Thoreau Valued Senior Member

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    3,380
    Freedom = (by my personal beliefs) =

    Not having to answer to anyone or anything unless one so choose's to.
    Not having to follow any rules unless they are personal ones set forth by the individual, affecting no one else but them. IE. Morals.

    Granted, I am fully aware that "total freedom" can lead to very devastating events, such as murder, rape and many more attrocities due to not having to answer to a structured hierarchy. This is beside my point.
     
  17. greenberg until the end of the world Registered Senior Member

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    So far, this is impossible to do in this Universe. Despite many people claiming it is or at least should be possible.

    Anything anyone does affects themselves and all others, in some way or another.
     
  18. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    A more concise definition would be: the unrestricted ability to do or possess something.
     
  19. Thoreau Valued Senior Member

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    thank you.

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  20. Upheaval Registered Member

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    I am having some trouble following this thread's argument. Lets imagine the world consisted of two people who were absolutely free. They don't have any higher authority besides their desires. Let us agree that both of these individuals desire to live, as is the case with all mammals besides human beings in a few cases. As we can all imagine, freedom implies responsibility over one-self. If one is free, no one is responsible for him other than himself. He is responsible to find one's own shelter, food, water, entertainment, anything he feels he needs to survive. He cannot blame the land for not giving him proper nurishment nor can he blame the second man for any of his suffering. However, he sees the other man is healthy and happy, he follows him around to learn what his secret is. His secret is an undiscovered meadow with nurishing fruits and a lake. With glee he begins to devour the fruits and drink from the lake, without any property laws, this area cannot belong to anyone unless they defend it from occupation. The second man is not warlike, and shares his resources without any problems.

    From my story you can see that the survival of the first man depended on the ingenuity for the other. The first man is not free if his life should depend on another. It is the same with our society. You cannot survive unless there is a government protecting you from occupation, economic take-overs, or out-sourcing of resources and labor. The laws of the land are designed to free you from burdens such as fear of death, fear of bulglary, fear of foreign dictators. You cannot expect to live in a society where you are absolutely free unless you are absolutely responsible for your own survival, and I can name you several nations where you can go to enjoy this freedom if you wish, most of them are in the middle east.

    If you wish to live under an umbrella that protects you from the rain of fear and death, if you wish to buy gas at 3 dollars a gallon while the rest of the world pays 6, if you wish to live without tanks rolling down the street, if you wish to live without the fear of being rape, mugged, injured, or killed you have to live in a system based on rules because you are unable to defend yourself from these prospects. You are unable to be responsible for yourself and you need, and I repeat, need, a system to be responsible for you.
     
  21. Thoreau Valued Senior Member

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    3,380

    Been there, done that. I spent two deployments in Iraq so I am fully aware of the conditions of a hostile nation. But that is beside my point. If you read what I stated earlier I said that YES we do have more rights than alot of other places in this world. However we as human beings and sentient beings have been repressed, BY US! Humans hold eachother down and force others to do things that they do not necessarily want to do.

    And thats where your words come in...

    Heres my argument. How are people not responsible for themselves??? We are the smartest creatures on this earth. We've achieved unbelievable things, more than anything else on this planet. Every other creature in this entire planet is responsible for themselves. They find their food, they raise thier offspring, they build shelter for themselves... and they've been perfectly fine for millions and millions of years. And the few that do lack the basic neccessities of knowledge die. Survival of the fittest.


    Yet somehow despite all of that, we lack the basic knowledge and principals it takes to equivalate ourselves to a bug or a rabbit or anything else????
    No.

    If, one day, you woke up and somehow magically their were no more governments, borders, or laws, or currency, most people would go with basic instinct and do whatever possible to survive, as other species have done throughout history with no social order. And the ones that cannot sustain themselves are concidered the weak and do not last long. Its as simple as that. Humans are not ignorant, well some are. lol We know how to feed, cloth, and house ourselves. Therefore we do not NEED government or formalized structure. We can sustain ourselves, and again, those who can't die. Its called evolution.
     

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