Burden of proof

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Killian_1_4, Nov 8, 2007.

  1. Killian_1_4 Registered Senior Member

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    108
    Ok something I want to explain is the burden of proof. Something like an afterlife is a claim, a hypothesis if you will, until proven true. The arguement "You can't prove there is an afterlife, but you also can't prove there isn't" is flawed. The burden of proof lies with the one who makes the claim. If I were to tell you santa claus was living on some remote planet billions of miles away, you would assume it were false until I proved otherwise. Same logic applies to any claim. If you're going to tell me there is an afterlife I am going to want some hard evidence to support it.

    So what do you guys think? Am I wrong here?
     
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  3. draqon Banned Banned

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    evidence...that is impossible to bring forth
     
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  5. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    20,285
    Yeah, I agree. BUT not to many people are going to worship a God and, more importantly, do as they are told - - unless they are offered life after death. I don't know anyone who would worship a God, with as little as this God gives the in this life, unless they think they'll get to live in a paradise after they die. I've even known some pretty confident atheists that started believing as they got up in their later years, say late 70s early 80s...
     
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  7. Donnal Registered Member

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    638
    well im not so sure i have seen grubs or caterpillars
    and they go into a caccoon they go through changes in that afterlife caccoon
    then they emerge as butterflies
    but i dont know if thats death or near death
    and they say delai lama has proof but i didnt meet him before and if i did i didnt know or remember if i have or not
    then theirs tales of people seeing ghots and experiences of dying and coming back to tell tales ....many say things that would blow the mind away
    then theirs psychic that say they talk to the dead nd they have done police work andhelped solve murder investigations
    so i really dont know about giving any proof of after life or none at all
    guess its what u choose to beleive
     
  8. Gustav Banned Banned

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    12,575

    wrong. if the claim sufficiently piques my interest, i'll go look for myself.
    what the claimant does is not my concern
     
  9. Killian_1_4 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    108
    If I were to tell you santa claus was living on some remote planet billions of miles away, you would assume false until proved otherwise.

    Fixed.
     
  10. Donnal Registered Member

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    638
    nah i just wouldnt even bother i read a few of those words
    and the only thing that has ever interested me and others is

    does after life really exist not santa
    so i didnt even bother to even have a thougth bout santa if he exits or not
    on the other hand after life has always interested many people and that caught my eye
    and i interpreted that and made a say on here
    i wasnt expecting an iq test
    so dont worry bout if i say the wrong things i just see or percieve differently to prololy others and yourself
     
  11. Gustav Banned Banned

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    12,575
    true. i tweaked and generalized the proposition. this burden of proof is bit of a soundbite
    i would do more than assume. i'd probably ridicule too. humiliate if resistant to revision, hang if the mood strikes me
    ja
    ridicule till the cows came home
     
  12. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    43,184
    True.
     
  13. Donnal Registered Member

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    638
    well sumthing happened in maryborough queensland australia few years back it made the news and streets were shut down till they found a cure

    it goes like this
    a man had an argument with his mate another guy bout money they guy owed the man
    the guy wouldnt pay up and the man needed the cash for his kids
    the man took of then came back with ground up chalk
    he threw the chalk on the ground and said .......WELL COP THIS THEN.....
    the guy got very extremely sick he called the ambulance and the cops came aswell they musta saw the chalk then they got very sick near death so to the ambulance crew
    more ambulance were called to help the other ambulance crew and the cops more cops came by this time people were sprawled out all over the outside on stretchers and the ground near dying they near died
    the man just crossed his arms and watched the display
    one smart fellow did tests on the chalk after attempting to help everyone
    he told them all .....that he didnt understand why everyone was sick cause there was no substance in the chalk and couldnt find nothing in tests he did on their blood
    everyone even cops and the guy got up feeling better but they were all near death
    the man never got arrested cause there was no substnce in the chalk

    thats kinda a bit of proof what people can do with the mind
    and is in the news papers local papers of maryborough australia
    i was there when it happened and also read the papers all me mates talked bout it for ages after
     
  14. Donnal Registered Member

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    638
    well he nelly sent em to the after life
     
  15. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    23,053
    Well, good for you. But does that also mean that you should ridicule, denigrate or otherwise harrass others who believe differently from you?

    If you don't want to believe, then fine. But do you hold that same tolerance for those who might believe differently? Do you allow them to believe as they wish?

    Baron Max
     
  16. redarmy11 Registered Senior Member

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    7,658
    I has an afterlife plus a Canada up my mangina. Avatar warned me he doesn't believe me.
     
  17. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    It is all based on faith and beliefs. If you are a true believer in whatever

    your faith tells you then you won't need any evidence other than your own

    belief.
     
  18. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    23,053
    I belief that the afterlife is all the pepperoni pizza with lots of mushrooms ...all you can eat, any time you want to eat. And in heaven, there's plenty of coffee and Irish Whiskey to drink any time I choose. And that the moon is made of cheese.

    How does that harm anyone?

    Baron Max
     
  19. Nickelodeon Banned Banned

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    10,581
    Well sure, I mean I dont see why you should have to prove that there is no afterlife.
     
  20. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    Only you with INDIGESTION!!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  21. Enterprise-D I'm back! Warp 8 Mr. Worf! Registered Senior Member

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    1,898
    Strictly speaking you are correct. The onus is not on the listener to prove anything. The listener may be interested in attempting to verify a claim, but it isn't incumbent on him to do so.

    The claimant must always provide evidence or even (as a start) a logical sequence of thought. Take legal cases for example. The defendant never proves the case against himself! It is up to the prosecuting attorney (the accuser or claimant's attorney) to prove his case beyond reasonable doubt.

    More fundamentally, it is not logically possible to prove the antithesis of a claim. That is attempting to prove a negative...which the listener cannot accomplish.
     
  22. Enterprise-D I'm back! Warp 8 Mr. Worf! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,898

    The degree of collateral damage caused by your belief is irrelevant. The question asks who has to prove said belief, were it to come into question.

    For example...I can tell you that all of your beliefs listed there are ridiculous. I however cannot prove that there is not an afterlife, or there is not coffee and whiskey in not-heaven. If you wish to defend or spread your beliefs (like theists tend to with their doctrines), you must provide the evidence.
     
  23. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

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    5,874
    You're appealing to arguments the OP didn't make. He's not arguing that there is harm. Nor is he arguing that those with superstitious beliefs should be ridiculed, denigrated, or otherwise humiliated by publicly demonstrating their ignorance. His argument is that if one makes a bold claim, only the claimant is required to support the claim. Therefore, the audience to the claim isn't required to provide evidence contrary to the claim.

    Where in the OP did you find his call for harm? Are you implying that the mere acts of questioning, inquiring and criticizing those that make wacky claims are proceeding with the intent to harm over the intent to demand truth and rational discourse?

    While the OP doesn't call for ridicule or denigration, I do. Anyone that is willing to publicly favor superstition over science deserves it, particularly when this superstition impedes education, medicine, and progress in technology and government. Religious superstition is responsible for smart, educated people flying planes into skyscrapers. Its responsible for inspiring assholes to bomb clinics and assassinate doctors who provide medical services to pregnant women simply because their superstition tells them life begins with conception. A fly has far more cells than a blastocyst, yet the Pope calls for pharmacists to refuse to fill prescriptions for medicines like Plan-B. Religious superstition is responsible -directly- for many of the HIV/AIDS deaths in Africa, where religious nutbars who are bishops are telling their "flock" condoms are laced with AIDS virus.

    Yeah. Denigration.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2008

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