Americans, should the First Amendment protect "hate" groups?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by USS Exeter, Nov 7, 2007.

  1. USS Exeter unamerican american Registered Senior Member

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    Well, Should notorious groups such as the American Nazi party, the Klu Klux Klan, godhatesfags, etc. be protected by the first amendment even though they are the scum of ignorance?
     
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  3. Pandaemoni Valued Senior Member

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    As long as I get to be the arbiter of who's ignorant and unprotected, I say no. If someone else gets the job though....
     
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  5. USS Exeter unamerican american Registered Senior Member

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    Most people, I assume, are not Nazis, racists, or extreme homophobics.
     
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  7. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    It depends on what we mean by protection. Beyond that, they deserve the same protection anyone else gets.
     
  8. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    If you suppress any type of speech, activity or idea, it goes into hiding. It's better to have it out in the open where you can keep track of it.

    For example, which is better:
    • A. People who deny the Holocaust have a convention in Berlin. Every time they step out of the hotel they are accosted by family members of Holocaust victims.
    • B. It's illegal to deny the Holocaust in Berlin, so people who deny the Holocaust have a convention in Tehran. Every time they step out of the hotel they are cheered by people who want the whole world to deny the Holocaust.
    Justice Brandeis said, "The best disinfectant is sunshine." The way I say it, "It's best to keep your cockroaches on top of the linoleum."
     
  9. USS Exeter unamerican american Registered Senior Member

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    The first amendment in America is: "Freedom of Speech." Should these hate groups be protected by this constitusional right?
     
  10. USS Exeter unamerican american Registered Senior Member

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    Many of them are hiding and are not known. If you destroy their messages of hate, you destroy their propaganda that is messaging other people.

    It is best to crush and pulverize those cockroaches where they stand!
     
  11. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Well, yes. My hesitation derives from the habit of certain hate groups to twist the meaning of free speech. Additionally, when you mentioned GodHatesFags, I thought instantly of the recent decision about protesting funerals.

    The thing about that is that I'm unsure where funerals stand in regard to the law. To the one, it might depend on whether the cemetery is public or private, but I'm nost sure. To the other, I'm not sure there's a jury in the country that would convict the mourners at the funeral of a murder victim or casualty of war if they descended on the protesters and beat them to death.

    Nor do I propose that solution. But right now, it's hard to imagine a jury that would convict.

    Maybe I'm wrong about that.
     
  12. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    When you start suppressing speech, it's difficult to decide where to stop. How exactly do we define "hate speech" anyway? Many cults of the Abrahamic religions preach intolerance of other religions, or people who have no religion, or even rival cults of their own religion. This intolerance, as we see every day in the headlines, often borders on hatred and just as often patently qualifies as hatred.

    Do we get to outlaw these religions too?
     
  13. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Nope. In fact, might as well round them up and shoot them.
     
  14. ashura the Old Right Registered Senior Member

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  15. USS Exeter unamerican american Registered Senior Member

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    Banning hate groups will not lead to banning religion. It does not work that way, you seemed to have reached what is called a "Grey beard" Fallibilty. What happens doesn't always trigger a domino effect.
     
  16. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Of course. They have freedom of speech like anyone else.
     
  17. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    all i am going to say is hate is not a right
     
  18. Grantywanty Registered Senior Member

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    1) I don't think you do destroy the propaganda. You drive it underground. It makes it cool in a certain way. It gives them a way to claim victimhood.
    2) You open the door for those in power who feel their power is threatened by speech to consider groups you are now not thinking of as hate groups as hate groups and to crush them. Whether it is communists or people complaining about Guantanamo, or feminists or whatever group suddenly becomes the new cockroachs.

    Freedom of speech is an act of faith. What it says is that it is best if we trust most people to not fall to be swayed because a lot of other voices will make the voices of hate look silly or what they are.

    When you crush cockroaches you are actually playing daddy to everyone.
     
  19. Grantywanty Registered Senior Member

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    It should be. we should all be allowed to feel what we feel. the law should come in and restrict actions. And hate literature can be published in nice, friendly tones. It can say that the Jews or the blacks would be happier with their own. There is no easy litmus test for what is hate literature. Should angry pamphlets against Bush and the war in Iraq lead to prosecutions? Should angry anti-abortion protesters be hauled off to jail? I tried to find examples from each side of the liberal conserative divide, but if I haven't found you, try to imagine something you believe in strongly and how easily the governement could decide that you seem hateful.
     
  20. Grantywanty Registered Senior Member

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    1,888
    Give us a shot at the wording of the law and my guess is we will be able to show you how district attorneys will be able to use this against groups you do not intend to have harassed. Unlike Fraggle Rocker I am less concerned about Religious groups who tend to be holy cows (ha, ha), but more political groups: anti war demonstrators, anti globalization activists or anyone who 1) comes off angry and 2) is irritating to those in power. They could be conservative groups also.

    (I do not think FR's concerns are off however.)
     
  21. maxg Registered Senior Member

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    Yes, because the dangers of limiting who has rights and who hasn't are greater than the danger of being exposed to a message of hate, racisism, homophobia, etc.
     
  22. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Voltaire: I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

    They may be hateful dispicable Americans, but they are still Americans. And in this country, that gives you rights.
     
  23. Grantywanty Registered Senior Member

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    This idea of rights actually does not fit my concern here - I am not saying it is wrong.

    I don't really give a shit about their rights.
    I don't want the government or anyone else to have the right to control speech.
     

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