Real versus Ideal

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by coberst, Oct 24, 2007.

  1. coberst Registered Senior Member

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    Real versus Ideal

    If we want to understand our self and our world we will necessarily have to learn some bit of philosophy and psychology. We become interested in philosophy when we begin to ask questions that go to the ‘root’ of all matters and we turn to psychology if we want to comprehend why humans do the things we do.

    It appears to me that psychology would say that we are essentially creatures of desire rather than creatures of contemplation; not because we do not have the brain power but because we do not have the courage to throw away our traditional security blanket and face the world with a critical eye.

    Descartes’ legacy to all of us via philosophy can be labeled, I think, as rationalism (discovery of truth through pure reason), dichotomy (mind/body split), and certainty. Even though very few of us know anything about philosophy, almost everything we think results from the philosophy we inherit through social osmosis (unconscious assimilation). Philosophy theory permeates almost all of our mental gymnastics without our conscious recognition.

    In the Gettysburg Address Lincoln developed, in just a few words, his answer to the cognitive conflict between what America displayed in the Constitution as the real law of the land versus the Declaration of Independence that represents an ideal to which all men can embrace as an ideal of government.

    The Constitution establishes a real set of principles defining a real government of, for, and by the people which does, in fact, not meet the ideal specified in the Declaration of Independence. That document, The Declaration of Independence, sets the ideal that all men and women are born equal and must be considered so in that light by a proper government.

    It appears to me that we sapiens need a ‘value North Star’ upon which to fix our voyage. We need a reference point upon which we can focus our attention when trying to determine what of value we can and should do in life.

    Religion, or God, serves as the ‘value North Star’ for some people; for others it is nationalism; for others, that fix is to own as much good stuff as possible; to others it is power; for some it is family; and I guess there are many other such ultimate values.

    The ideal is something that we strive for and the real is something that we have created.

    We need an ideal upon which to focus and to strive for. I think that Lincoln has furnished us with that ideal that has been set forth in the Declaration and the question becomes how well have we followed that North Star and are we gaining or loosing ground in that endeavor.

    I think we are losing ground and if we citizens do not become more alert and responsible we may suffer severe consequences not because we lack the brain power but because we lack the will to be all we can be.

    Someone said that only one person in a thousand ever “strikes at the root”. I do not think a liberal democracy in a hi-tech world can survive if such remains to be true. Hi-tech gives us the ability to easily destroy our self and our world; liberal democracy makes all citizens to be sovereign and thus responsible in some small way for the integrity of our existence.

    We are all in the same boat and if only one person in a thousand accepts the responsibility of democracy I think our species may have a very limited engagement on this planet. I think that we must become much more intellectually sophisticated than we are now and I do not expect that our educational systems can help us much in that effort. We must become independent learners.

    I think that philosophy permeates all avenues of our life, do you agree?
     
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  3. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    Why can't that star be ourselves and our own needs instead of what the government or religions want us to think and do.
     
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  5. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    the problem is that we are not socially, politically, environmentally, psychologically, biologically or spiritually independent - thus analyzing our "self" ultimately comes back to looking at how we interact with other people/communities and the universe/environment at large in the pursuit of values.
     
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  7. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    But how we act is determined by how we think. What we think about ourselves reflects what we are and what we do with our lives.
     
  8. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    so how do you propose that you examine your thinking outside of considerations of social, political, environmental, psychological, biological or spiritual paradigms?

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  9. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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  10. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    meditating is a spiritual paradigm
    IOW it no doubt involves ideas about how you exist in relation to your mind, other people and the world at large
     
  11. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    Actually it only allows me to "see" my inner self leaving the outside world, outside and only looking at what is going on inside my own thoughts about myself and my actions.
     
  12. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    thus we could follow it up to arrive at your values of how your "self" exists in relation to the world at large

    (and further more, we could trace the social and political history of this value system - eg - discover which notable persons elaborated on it in different ways and see how such elaborations fit into the picture of other contending or congruent vale systems etc etc etc etc)
     
  13. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    I only see how my "self" relates within myself, leaving the world outside completely. I can get rid of all "distractions" that you have listed and only deal with my internal thoughts about my own self, not what others are doing or is going on in the world.
     
  14. coberst Registered Senior Member

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    You are suggesting that we each become our own ideal?
     
  15. coberst Registered Senior Member

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    As I thumb down through the gyrating avatars I am getting dizzy
     
  16. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    I suggest nothing to anyone. It is up to them to discover who and what they are by looking at themselves through their own thoughts not through others viewpoints.
     
  17. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    and you are trying to tell me you don't advocate a spiritual paradigm?
    :shrug:
     

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