From Thursday's Washington Post: If all religion worked this well I would stop bitching about it. Can we bottle what the Amish have and send it to the Middle East? It seems like the entire population there are "hostages to hostility".
The Amish have been that way for hundreds of years, but it didn't stop the gunman from killing all those little kids, did it? Baron Max
No, but it DID stop them from taking it out on his wife and/or kids!! Which would have fit with the concept of an-eye-for-an-eye. Instead, they gave her compassion, consideration and help.
<offtopic> I love visiting the Amish farmers' markets; the fruits and vegetables taste like F&V!!</offtopic>
Would you suggest that we take that same approach with all the murderers, rapists and pedophiles in the world? Baron Max
No, that's not true. What they did was forced someone else, law enforcement and the courts, to take the "eye-for-an-eye" approach. It's easy to take the high road as long as someone else is forced to take the low road through the filth and mire of crime. Baron Max
Baron Max: "What they did was forced someone else, law enforcement and the courts, to take the "eye-for-an-eye" approach." Really? What specific punitive actions did Amish forgiveness force law enforcement and the courts to take in this case, Baron? "It's easy to take the high road as long as someone else is forced to take the low road through the filth and mire of crime. " Specifically what forced ignonimity afforded these Amish an easy high road? Exactly how did this alleged bargain work?
For a person who loves to hang out in this scientific community, you're not much of a man for statistical analysis, one of the basic tools of science. Let's see now... five deaths, over a period of about 150 years (not "hundreds," they haven't been in existence that long), in a population that now numbers roughly 200,000. If the roughly 300 million Muslims in the Arab Middle East were "that way," their death rate from violence would be... let's see... about fifty per year! I'll leave it as an exercise to perform a similar calculation for the death rate from violence among the Jewish folks in Israel. Your reasoning is not persuasive. Besides, neither I nor the Amish equate forgiveness after the fact with failure to prosecute and punish. Forgiveness stops the cycle of violence that perpetuates itself long after everyone involved has forgotten the original offense. There was an article about this very thing in Albania a few weeks ago. A man shot off a gun as a warning in a densely populated neighborhood. Not a smart move, but more thoughtless than genuinely evil. The bullet went through the wall of a home and killed an inhabitant. The victim's family now has a sacred obligation to kill the perp, and as soon as that happens his family will have a sacred obligation to retaliate, and the next thing you know it's the Hatfields and McCoys -- or the Sunnis and Shiites. It's not easy for me to pick and choose the "good" points of different religions, but the Old Testament rule of taking "an eye for an eye" has been proven to perpetuate a cycle of violence rather than advancing civilization. For all of Jesus's naive pronouncements about economics and other disciplines that were too immature to pontificate about two thousand years ago, his instruction to forgive people is something we could all take to heart. It's not the same as forgetting, you still get to take the necessary actions to collect restitution and to stop them from doing it again. You just don't have to spend the next ten generations being fixated on it and exacting revenge. I stand by my thesis. In this one regard, the Amish illustrate the good side of Christianity and I wish all people who call themselves Christians would take a moment to reflect on it. And all the rest of us who are "hostages to hostility."
And I agree. I'd also like to interject something at this point. Whenever I talk about "true Christians" I'm speaking about people who believe and act just like those Amish did. The average "Christian" on the street is about as far from being a true Christian as an American is from being a space alien. The real ones DO believe in forgiveness and NEVER seek retribution. I've mentioned this in passing to at least one totally ignorant member here who insisted - very stupidly - that they still believe in following the laws laid out in the Old Testament. I can only assume that he's never met the genuine article and most likely has been brainwashed by his fellow anti-Christians. But I do know a number of these people personally and I sincerely wish I could live as free from guilt and desire for retribution as they do. Thank you.
And I thought I had problems with doubt, questioning others actions, and not trusting many people, but hey, at least I know I can trust the Amish! WTH ya doin questioning their motives, Baron? Ya nut! =P - N
That is a beautiful thing but very unlikely to happen in the middle east thier concepts of clan and honour would never allow it.
If they're prosecuted and punished by someone else, then "forgiveness" is easy! It does? Since you're such a big shit on statistical analysis, then perhaps you can give us some data to show just how much vengeance really plays in our society ("our" society meaning the society where the Amish live!). And remember now, don't bring up the bullshit in the Middle East where Muslim vengeance is practically part of their religious beliefs!! Fraggle, you're full of shit if you think that the average American is really going to seek personal vengeance for a vicious crime of murder. It ain't happened in the USA, other than in mystery novels, since the early 1900s! "Hostages to hostility"??? What the hell is that? ...LOL! And, Fraggle, if you reply, can you please try to keep your reply to under, say, a thousand fuckin' words for a change? Please? Baron Max
hi All Amish people cannot be given credit for this gesture. Besides, the "bad guy" is already dead....if you are christian he is in hell anyways. There are "bad" people everywhere. There are "bad" christians, "bad" mormons, "bad" supermodels, etc. In the same respect, there are good people who are in bad groups, gangs, etc. (we all know what i'm talking about). I think we are pretty much all doomed, maybe we can buy some time but eventually the world will heal itself (get rid of us). If there are people left behind to rebuild........maybe they can figure something out.
A lot of people are unfamiliar with the concept of creating a society that inspires people to live better lives and commit fewer acts of violence against others.