Islam Must Rule the World

[S.A.M.]

Besides its not an isolated phenomenon:

Australia:

AM - Wednesday, December 18, 2002 8:17

LINDA MOTTRAM: On the grounds that it's not in the public interest, a Sydney council has rejected a man's bid to build a Muslim place of worship.

The building application was overwhelmingly defeated during an extraordinary meeting of the Baulkham Hills Shire Council, though the Council's own planning department had recommended that it just be deferred.

The man who proposed the building says that he'll now take his fight to court. But the many locals who objected to the application say they're delighted.

Macedonia:

No government official was prepared to explain to Forum 18 News Service why Macedonia's religious minorities are in practice unable to build new places of worship or extend existing ones. "The only permission we can get is to build an ordinary house where we can hold worship services," Stojan Petrovski of the Evangelical Alliance complained to Forum 18, noting that the same problems apply to all small religious communities. The Seventh-day Adventists reported that for three decades they have been denied permission to build a church in Negotino, while the Muslims complain of denial of permission to build mosques. Applications by an Evangelical Church in Skopje to extend its building have been rejected although surrounding buildings have been able to extend.

Burma (Buddhist majority)

Muslims face abuses of their right to practice their religion freely and discrimination based on their religion from both the government and the majority Buddhist population. Muslim groups throughout Burma are essentially banned from constructing or renovating mosques. In September 2004, four Rohingya Muslims were sentenced to five years imprisonment for making repairs to the village mosque (source: "Demolished Mosques in Northern Arakan," Kaladan News, 16 September 2004). The government also destroyed several mosques throughout the year. It was reported that as many as forty mosques have been scheduled for destruction in the past two years in Arakan State alone (source: International Religious Freedom Report-2004, Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor, U.S. Department of State, 15 September 2004).

US:

Department of Justice Intervenes in NJ Albanian Mosque Case

July 27, 2007

On July 25, New Jersey federal district judge Peter Sheridan heard argument on the Township of Wayne’s motion for summary judgment in the RLUIPA lawsuit brought by the Albanian Associated Fund, a Paterson, N.J. mosque, against the Township. In 2001, the mosque bought land in Wayne and since then has been trying to build a mosque to house its congregation on the site. The Township repeatedly delayed the mosque’s application for a conditional use permit, and finally moved to seize the mosque’s property using eminent domain.

And thats just a random look at the first page of google. To somehow project it as an attitude exclusive to Muslims is not only ignorance, it is spreading unwarranted hatred.

[John99]

Are 'infidels' permitted on Muslim land?

[S.A.M.]

Are 'infidels' permitted on Muslim land?

Which Muslim land? They are not all the same.

Besides, are the infidels emulating the Muslims? Surely they think they are better than them?

[John99]

I mean generally Sam.

Surely they think they are better than them?

, not sure what you mean by that. i asked the question because i really dont know.

[S.A.M.]

I mean generally Sam.



, not sure what you mean by that. i asked the question because i really dont know.

Since I already posted links that showed the churches in some Muslim countries, I fail to see the point of the question.

e.g. the annual Armenian Christian pilgrimage

The tents of thousands of pilgrims dot the hillside, the air is heavy with the scent of incense and the sounds of the church bell toll across the valley.

This is the Armenian Christian pilgrimage marking the feast of the first-century missionary, St Thaddeus, deep in the north-western mountains of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

Every summer for the past half century, thousands of Armenian pilgrims from Iran and beyond have descended on the remote Qareh Kelisa (black church) for three days of worship and relaxation with fellow Armenians.

http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx...international/

Dubai:
http://www.deccc.com/said.asp

Qatar:

Christian church rises in Arabia
By John Terrett, in Doha, Qatar



Work has begun on the construction of Qatar's first purpose-built church in the desert outside Doha, the country's capital.

Although the country's native inhabitants are entirely Muslim - and are prohibited by law from converting to another faith - the new Catholic church will cater to the large number of Christian migrants who have come to the Arabia Gulf state in search of work.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...CA68CD4616.htm

As Muslims become more educated, Islam not only becomes stronger, it becomes closer to what the Prophet preached.

[John99]

OK, i did not see that list...must be so small i didnt see it. just kidding, i will look for it and one day i will travel all throughout the Middle East.

[S.A.M.]

OK, i did not see that list...must be so small i didnt see it. just kidding, i will look for it and one day i will travel all throughout the Middle East.

Be sure to be polite, it will open many hearts and doors. ME appreciate nothing more than politeness. And stick up for yourself, they don't like wussies.

[Sock puppet path]

How many mosques since 1975? Was the refusal to build due to zoning regulations?

Dunno don't see any statistics for that this is relevant but general.

The first mosque in Norway was the Islamic Cultural Centre (named in English), which opened in Oslo in 1974. The initiative for the mosque came from Pakistanis who were helped by the Islamic Cultural Centre which had already opened in Copenhagen in Denmark. The new mosque adhered to the deobandi branch of Sunni Islam. Adherents of the barelwi branch, who constituted the majority of Pakistanis in Norway, soon felt the need for a mosque of their own, and opened the Central Jama’at-e Ahl-e Sunnat in 1976. This is today the largest mosque in Norway, with over 5000 members.

As the Muslim population grew, the number of mosques also multiplied quickly. As long as the total number of Muslims was low, it was natural for many different groupings to congregate in a single mosque. But as different immigrant groupings increased in number, the wish for separate mosques for people of different nationalities, languages and sects increased. The first Shia mosque, Anjuman-e hussaini, was founded in 1975, and in the early 1980s, separated Moroccan and Turkish mosques were established.

more here

[S.A.M.]

Dunno don't see any statistics for that this is relevant but general.



more here

Ok Thanks. So why does the hrw site report on refusal to build mosques being routine?

Are there ares where the locals do not give permission?

[Sock puppet path]

Ok Thanks. So why does the hrw site report on refusal to build mosques being routine?

No idea I didn't see any link to HRW just a US state dept report from 2001 and I know you are suspect when it comes to the US and fact finding reports

[S.A.M.]

Here is an interesting article written by a priest; apparently the Christians are not free from persecution either.

The religious liberty problems in Europe today arise from a variety of sources: lingering intolerance of religion among former communists who have remained in the bureaucracy or have regained power; the general difficulties involved in moving from communism to democracy and instituting the rule of law; ethnic and nationalist conflicts with a strong religious dimension; conflicts within and among religious groups; and widely different conceptions of the meaning of religious liberty and the models of church-state relations. Intolerance on the part of majority religions towards minority religions is just one of several factors that explain infringements of religious liberty

1. Intolerance associated with ethnic/ nationalist conflicts.

The "ethnic cleansing" of whole communities and the destruction of churches and mosques in Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina is a form of religious repression that was unmatched even in the darkest days of communism. The conflict in the Balkans is not a religious war, but it has a religious dimension because of the way religion and nationalism have interacted. Serious problems remain after the Dayton Accords. Authorities in Republica Srpska refuse to give permission for Catholic priests to return to Trebinje, Doboj, Brcko, and parts of Banja Luka to minister to the Catholics that remain there. In Croatia, Catholic priests are restricted from ministering in Eastern Slavonia due to resistance and threats from local Serbs, while some of the few Serbian Orthodox clergy who have attempted to return to Krajina face similar harassment. These restrictions on pastoral ministry are symptomatic of the larger problem of the inability of refugees of all religious and national groups to safely return to their homes in areas where they would be a minority. Those who attempt to return face harassment and violence, including several recent bombings of churches and mosques. The very survival of the Catholic Church in much of Bosnia is threatened by this failure to implement the right of return contained in the Dayton Accords; displaced Serbian Orthodox and Muslim communities face a similarly bleak future.

The integral link between religion and national/ ethnic identity in Romania, Ukraine, Northern Ireland and several other countries also provides a pretext for discrimination and tensions, albeit of a much lesser magnitude. For example, in the past year in Northern Ireland, several dozen Catholic and Protestant churches and halls have been victims of arson amidst deepening sectarian divisions there.

2. Restrictions on "foreign" religious bodies and "sects".

Laws in several countries restrict "non-traditional" religions by imposing special regulations on so-called "foreign" religions, often at the behest of the majority religion.

The new law on religion being considered in Russia is a well-known example of these illegitimate restrictions on minority religions. The current version of the bill which was sent to the Russian parliament by the Yeltsin administration accords different treatment for different religions based on whether they are "traditional" and on the length of time they have been legally recognized in Russia. The proposed bill would also construct a process of obtaining legal status -- essential, for example, for owning property, employing religious workers, and producing religious literature -- that is impossibly labrynthine. The flawed bill is coupled with a proliferation of discriminatory local laws on religion pose a serious threat to so-called minority or non-traditional religious bodies in Russia.

In Armenia, a 1993 presidential decree, issued in response to the Armenian Apostolic Church's concerns about the influx and growth of foreign and minority religious groups, gave the Council for Religious Affairs authority to investigate and dissolve minority religious groups that proselytize in violation of the law and to closely regulate foreign religious organizations.

The government in Belarus is also restricting minority and foreign religious bodies. The law prohibits foreigners from holding church leadership positions, and gives the Council of Religious Affairs considerable discretion in excluding foreign religious workers. In January of this year, the government dropped its threat to not extend the visas of most of the 130 foreign Catholic priests serving there, but many priests could eventually be deported and the situation of some 100 Catholic nuns, who have been refused residence and work permits, remains tenuous. These foreign religious workers are essential to the life of the Church in Belarus and other countries because of the strict limits on the number of indigenous priests and religious orders under communism.

In several other countries, minority religious bodies and their adherents are discriminated against in various ways. In Bulgaria, some minority groups, such as the Mormons, have been refused registration. In Greece, the Catholic Church and other minority religious bodies have difficulty obtaining permits to operate houses of worship, permits which are granted on advice of the local Orthodox official. In Russia, it is common practice for the Orthodox Church to be consulted before a local official agrees to return a Catholic Church property or before permission is given to build a new one. In Turkey, minority churches also face difficulties gaining permission to acquire property and operate religious institutions. The Ecumenical Patriarchate, for example, continues to be denied permission to reopen the Halki seminary, which has been closed for two decades. Throughout Bosnia, religious minorities face discrimination in housing, employment, access to the media, and other areas of life.

3. Return of church property.

The return of property confiscated under communism has been a contentious issue in most countries of the region. In past years, disputes over restitution of property have strained the Catholic church's relationship with the state in the Czech Republic and Lithuania. This issue remains particularly problematic in Romania, where the Greek Catholic Church has faced obstacles in gaining restitution of properties confiscated by the communist government and transferred to the Romanian Orthodox Church after World War II. An Orthodox-Greek Catholic commission has failed to resolve this issue. Greek Catholic representatives are supporting pending legislation that would return certain properties in rural areas where there is more than one formerly Greek Catholic church.

4. Bureaucratic obstacles.

In many formerly communist countries, religious leaders, minority and majority alike, complain that administrative agencies or local governments fail to comply with laws on religion or place burdens on religious believers. In Russia, for example, government officials charge relatively large sums to license a new priest or to grant permission to purchase or build a church building.

http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/internatio...sinte997.shtml

[S.A.M.]

No idea I didn't see any link to HRW just a US state dept report from 2001 and I know you are suspect when it comes to the US and fact finding reports

Oops you're right.

[John99]

Be sure to be polite, it will open many hearts and doors. ME appreciate nothing more than politeness. And stick up for yourself, they don't like wussies.

As far as wussies or sticking up for myself, i dont know about that. I have had many Muslims open their doors to me here in U.S but i dont ask question s like i do here. I was just wondering if it was the same there, i am talking EVEN before all these problems- 911.

Thank you for your time.

[S.A.M.]

As far as wussies or sticking up for myself, i dont know about that. I have had many Muslims open their doors to me here in U.S but i dont ask question s like i do here. I was just wondering if it was the same there, i am talking EVEN before all these problems- 911.

Thank you for your time.

If you ask any questions on religion, be prepared to be dragged to the imam for a full blown session on Islam.

[Norsefire]

And again: how hypocritical is it to whine about how poorly a genocidal war goes when you lose? I didn't see the Germans complaining about losing a fair bit of land at the end of WWII (you remember, the war the Americans "freed the slaves to fight in").



Well, I was willing to meet you halfway and say the Greeks were only outnumbered 2000:1 at that pass, but now I'm going to go the full distance and say the Persians had a million men, so now it's 3000:1 again. Don't say I didn't give you a chance.



So because I live in the US...I can't know any Israelis...because Israelis don't fly to other continents ever? Well, unless they boil a Palestinian kid's eyes or something, which Syrian media reputes them to steal, I guess. By the same token, you can't have had an American education. How would you even get to North America??? It's just impossible.



Noooooooo....what the hell are you talking about? Is there a gas leak in your house?



Syria was on herself after the almost unarmed Israelis handed her ass to her? Sounds kinky. Anyway, what allies? The Brits were training Egyptian pilots, FFS.



This illustrates two things to me:

i) you've never been to Israel.

Not surprising. I imagine Syrian media has probably convinced you by now that the sharp horns and pointy pitchfork of the average Jewish person are just too darned sharp to risk walking about on the street, not to mention that the evil hooknosed Jews might just pluck the soul out of your chest, or steal it by taking your picture.

ii) because you believe 1) that Israelis lash their children and live in some medieval behavioural codus and 2) think that "syrian culture is similar to Israeli culture, mediteranean culture", that:

iii) Syrian culture actually does involve beating the shit out of kids and women. After all, you say that it's common for Israelis to do (it isn't) and that "Israeli culture [culture being what?] is similar to Syrian culture". Ergo, that really does go on in Syria. What a humanitarian haemorrhoid Syria must be.



Hezbollah fires rockets randomly across the border into civilian centres and brainwashes the choicest individuals off the short bus from Damascus into strapping bombs to their chest; ergo, Hezbollah does not target IDF only, or even at all. Period. Thanks for playing.



Damascus isn't that close to home. And - just to try and educate you a little, since you didn't get any anywhere else - if they were going to be overrun, what would the difference be? Genocide vs nuclear destruction? It amazes me how blind people with your positions really are; as if the propaganda really got in there and took root.



Wow. That was an unbelievably shitty thing to say. You're special - in the Damascus short bus kind of way.



Another shitty thing; yet, similarly, islamism and islam has created far, far more victims numerically speaking; I se no reason to allow political correctness to colour the quite legitimate criticisms of the political system of islamism, or even of the religion itself.



The Grand Mufti of Palestine had a different opinion. And how hospitable is Arab society to the non-muslims in it's midst? Ah: I suppose that's another ayah (Q 9: 29) for another time, eh? Dhimmis really like being second-class citizens? Ladies and gentlemen, I give you: the difference between being an outspoken kuffir visitor and citizen in islamic society.



A remarkable bout of lucidity. Too bad the religious and political leaders of Palestine don't seem to be reading from your book. Then again, it appears to be a cookbook, given one of your earlier comments.



When it suits, apparently. And - "prisoners"? The 6 million Jews were really just detained?

You also show a remarkable misunderstanding of the issue. The Jews saw what the majority society was willing to offer them as inhabitants of the ME - second-class citizens, to be provoked and harassed and abused at will by their proper islamic overlords, as written in the Quran - and realized that even in their religious and cultural homeland, they were going to be treated as bad or worse than in the West. They decided against allowing it - and things escalated. Kind of hard to blame the victim of a crime, really.

I mean, unless you don't have the requisite four witnesses or something.

Well you would be wrong, because they had no where near a million men. So go on and believe your one million persians myth.

You said, a man in the US is an american, so therefore I am American, and Israelis are American, right? Now, that's not right.
Hm, why is that impossible? I DID recieve an American education, and I do live in America, and I do watch the American propaganda, but now you dont see me agreeing with you do you?

Handed her ass? Again, you do not know the difference between Major Victory and Victory, or should I say minor victory? Because that's what it was.

This illustrates two things:

1) You've never been to Israel, since Israel is in fact a sprawling ghetto

2) Oh no, they are similar, never did I say that they were medival BS, they do live similary (same food, same lifestyles), the same types of lives. If Israel beats her children, then nvm my claim, we have a very different culture.

3) It does? I'm afraid I have to disagree with you, after all I visit Syria every summer nearly, and never once did I see a child getting the shit beaten out of him. AT least we dont chop fingers off, now....

Basically, Geoff, try and take a dump and get all that propaganda out of your system, yea? Tell you what, take a vacation to Syria, Latakia preferabbly is a vacation hotspot (beautiful beaches and hotels), and then start talking again and lets see what your opinion is. I'm afraid you are already poisoned with your propaganda though.

[(Q)]

Well you would be wrong, because they had no where near a million men. So go on and believe your one million persians myth.

Don't know why you'd think it was so far fetched. Xerxes spent four years amassing his army, predominantly made up of slaves, conquered from hundreds of states and dozens of countries of millions of people.

Regardless of the count, the ratio was substantial in that the Greek army shouldn't have lasted even half a day.

[Norsefire]

Don't know why you'd think it was so far fetched. Xerxes spent four years amassing his army, predominantly made up of slaves, conquered from hundreds of states and dozens of countries of millions of people.

Regardless of the count, the ratio was substantial in that the Greek army shouldn't have lasted even half a day.

Well, most sources say 185,000.

Ah, but tactics beats numbers. On an open battlefield, the superior skill of the Persians would've meant a swift and easy victory. Remember, the Immortals were the elite of the elite, the best warriors of their time.

[(Q)]

Well, most sources say 185,000.

No, they don't. Sources indicate a range of 250,000 up to 8 million.

Ah, but tactics beats numbers. On an open battlefield, the superior skill of the Persians would've meant a swift and easy victory.

You mean the "cowardly" Persians, who only know to shoot arrows from a distance in great numbers to achieve their victories.

Remember, the Immortals were the elite of the elite, the best warriors of their time.

And they fell like so many blades of grass under a lawnmower.

[Michael]

We'll split the difference and say 600,000 or so. Fair?

Actually both sides plumped up the numbers - typical of propaganda of the time.

[Michael]

Stopped beating your girlfriend yet?

No - she just isn't all that good at tennis. I beat her badly in every game we play.

Now if you were going "suggest" I beat my girl friend with my fists then I can ask you to qualify the statement. You will then ask: Do you beat your girlfriend with your fists? Then I can state No.

Is there a question you need clarified SAM?
Well?

Remember I asked you if it is thought that Mohammad murdered people with his own hands. After 20+ pages of eating red-herring you finally said YES. Was Mohammad a murder? YES. See its really quite easy. Then you added your bit about how it was OK because the people he murdered were Arab polytheists.

The Question:

Only going on what information you have read, was the order to have the two singing-girls put to death (Fartana and her friend) moral or immoral?

Why or why not?

It isn't entirely moral or immoral.

I certainly don’t want to live in a society where one person gets his feelings hurt and panties in a bunch and with no trial at all simply opens his mouth and orders the death of a poor defenseless girl. It sounds no different than living under someone like Saddam Hussein or that pervert the Ayatollah.

Also, what kind of example is that!?!?!? Killing a girl for singing some funny tunes – grow some thick skin your acting like a spoiled little baby.

I certainly can’t see a Jesus ordering the Death of a singing girl for poking fun of him.
I certainly can’t see the Buddha ordering the Death of a singing girl for poking fun of him.

But here we have a popular folk story of your slave owning prophet killing a girl for poking fun of him and the best Kadark can come up with is … well, ok it’s not a completely moral choice, killing that girl, but insulting Saddam, Ooops I mean the Prophet, is not good either, so she had to get knifed which is maybe a little immoral, oh well lets not think or talk about it too much Allah might hear us and I might get in trouble. Speaking of which maybe I shouldn't paint a picture of a human body, I was thinking sexual thoughts when I was inspired and Allah might not like that so I better quit. WE ALL SHOULD QUIT.

Yeah, great society Islam is building there

RE: Slavery
The issue of slavery relates directly to the type of society that existed under Islamic governments. Slaves were owned in this century. There are ex-Slaves alive today. As I posted. According to reputable Muslims scholars Mohammad owned many slaves hence many Muslims believe Mohammad owned Slaves, and while we will never know if there even was a Mohammad (he may be a composite character) the main fact is what people think is true and it’s really that simple.

The dates for when various Islamic States finally, under pressure from the West and in contradiction with the Qur’an, made Slavery illegal can be looked up if you feel the sources I provided were not sufficient for you.

Slavery thrived for millennia under Islam - a Historical fact. Slavery was banned in less than a couple years under Communism yet we’re suppose to think that a One world under Islam is a good thing? History suggests otherwise.

RE: Religious discrimination.
Islam discriminates based on personal belief. Even Communism ended this almost over night. Yet we are supposed to think that a system with religious discrimination is better than one where people are free to practice their faith without discrimination? That’s absurd.

RE: Art
See above. This goes directly to the type of society that existed under Islamic governments. Do we think that the almost complete eradication of the human form in art is a sign of a progressive forward thinking society that is going to be better for humankind or as a symptom of a society in reverse? Who here wants to live in a society where the human body is taboo? Obviously people who are so terrified that Allah might think bad of them that they will not answer specific questions (that is they will not dare to think something that this invisible Allah might not like) are the same type of people who when inspired by the human body (often sexual in nature) will turn this beautiful and natural desire not into a work or marble and art but instead into a worry about what the magical Allah will think - best not take the chance hand me a bomb-pack I think I sinned and I'm getting outta here with a straight ticket to paradise.

RE: bark peaces.
It's not unreasonable to ask a specific question of when a book was written and who wrote it. It’s not a "set up" question. If you need this qualified than simply state what is confusing and we can clear it up. Considering that the oldest versions of the Qur’an differ from the present versions it’s a valid question. No one can state exactly when the Qur'an was written, nor can they state who wrote which parts of it, nor when each of these were written, and most importantly no one ones even knows when it was canonized - the first time. Your suggestion that because some people somewhere were singing some sections of something that this how negates these questions is completely absurd.

Date and authorship are the first questions any researcher notes.

One would think that the most perfect “revelations” together with a magical fairy-horse ride someone would have thought it important enough to write it down and make a note of it. That such didn’t happen says something to me anyway.



The History of Muslims under Islam its absolutely no different than the history of any other people from China or Japan to Mexico or the Pacific - just a bunch of people living under a "God" appointed Emperor and his royal family. Why would anyone want to go backwards to that? They wouldn't.

Michael