Satan was not evil

**ashpwner** · 08-04-07, 10:57 AM

i've heard many things saying satan is evil but from what i have read they all say that the reason satan fell was becuase he refused to bow before humans and only would bow to god, as his master....also if satan punishes evil dosent that make him good.....p.s i dont belive in satan i'm just bringing this up for sake of discusion.

**(Q)** · 08-04-07, 12:23 PM

The good and evil referenced from the bible only applies to scriptures. Since the bible is little more than myth and superstition, good and evil, as referenced are interchangeable and therefore lose all meaning.

So, yes, Satan punishes good and evil, so, he is good and evil.

But then, so are the gods.

Meaningless.

**Pandaemoni** · 08-04-07, 01:33 PM

There are several stories about Satan. One has him refusing to bow before Adam, another has him trying to overthrow God. Even in the former story, though, after being cast out of heaven Satan dedicates himself to causing the men to fall from grace, which would seem to be a spiteful (and arguably evil) act.

Then again, in the Jewish tradition, Satan isn't evil at all. He is the faithful servant of God and was never cast out.

Frankly I think Christianity is a little confused about Satan and evil. Sometimes it attributes evil directly to Satan, sometimes it attributes it to innate flaws of men. The problem with having Satan being the font of all evil is that it raises the question of why God tolerates Satan's interference with mankind. (Presumably God could stop the Devil from interfering in our lives without even destroying the Devil, if He chose to do so.) I think that is what leads modern Christianity to more often rely on the notion of evil as being something that arises as a result of free will and out flawed nature than it does on the notion of diabolical meddling. It's easier to defend the notion of God leaving our free will (and flaws) alone than it is to explain his giving Satan free rein to ruin us.

**nietzschefan** · 08-04-07, 01:45 PM

The "Satans" were originally god's "lawyers". The were prosecuters.

**geistkiesel** · 08-08-07, 02:42 AM

Originally Posted by ashpwner

i've heard many things saying satan is evil but from what i have read they all say that the reason satan fell was becuase he refused to bow before humans and only would bow to god, as his master....also if satan punishes evil dosent that make him good.....p.s i dont belive in satan i'm just bringing this up for sake of discusion.

If Satan and the Serpent are the same, as some interpretations go, then the Serpent comes out a truth teller, while Jehovah comes out the liar. The serpent told Eve that if she ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that she surely would not die and that her eyes would open and she wouls become like God, knowing good and evil. This is the truth as Eve experienced.

God told her that eating of that fruit then on that day she would surekly die, and God knew this to be a lie. Later, he remarked to somone, hat it was bad enough that Eve (and Adam) had become like Gods and it it was a good thing Eve didn't eat from the tree of everlasting lfe.

Geistkiesel

**cole grey** · 08-08-07, 02:59 AM

I suppose living forever in an unenlightened state might seem an unjust punishment to a God. It is hard to say whether people that lived forever could have done much worse than what we have done with our resources.

My opinion is that the tree of knowledge represents the attainment of consciousness beyond the animal level. It marks the point at which mankind fell from the state of animal existence to the place where hatred and self-hatred exist. It is very easy to imagine a garden of eden where God planned to have mankind eat the apple when they were better able to deal with it - perhaps when our bodies or brains were more evolved - and satan rushed us into our current painful existence. Perhaps eating the tree of life would have permanently placed us in this mode of consciousness somehow, condemning humanity to this purgatory forever.

Also, on the day she ate the apple she became aware of death, which is as good as being dead when compared to an existence unaware of longterm existence.

Anyway, once you go back that far it is all speculation as to the exact meaning of it all.

**one_raven** · 08-08-07, 03:11 AM

Originally Posted by geistkiesel

If Satan and the Serpent are the same, as some interpretations go, then the Serpent comes out a truth teller, while Jehovah comes out the liar.

It was not a lie.
If they hadn't eaten of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they would still be in the Garden of Eden with access to the Tree of Life, and would have been immortal.
As a result of eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they were refused access to the Tree of Life and eventually died.
God told them the truth.

As for the fall of "Satan"...
I assume you are referring to the story of the fall of Lucifer told in Isaiah 14.

The only mention of Lucifer in the Old Testament is in this chapter.
It was a story about a fallen Babylonian King who was done in by his own arrogance - not Satan.

NIV Isiaih 14:11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.
12 How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."
15 But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.
16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: "Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble,

Satan, on the other hand, is directly mentioned 34 times.
Click here to read them all
Genesis 3 (the story of Eve and the Serpent) is not one of those times.
Nothing in the Bible says that the Serpent in Eden was Satan.
Revelation 20:2 does say, however, that "that old Serpent" (not necessarily the one from Genesis, though) was the Devil.

It is hard to say one way or another.
They are both referred to as deceivers, but that doesn't necessarily mean they were one and the same.

NIV Revelation 2:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This page explains why people think that Satan was a cherub that protected God with his wings, but then fell because of vanity, ambition and such, but they are all assumptions and vague inferred connections.
For example:
Revelation does not say that Satan was the serpent of Genesis.
Ezekial 28 is not about Satan, rather the Prince of Tyrus.
Isiah 14 was about a Babylonian king, not Satan.

Fact is, as far as I know and have ever read, the Bible does not say why Satan is evil, it doesn't say that he was once good, it doesn't say that he was Eve's serpent.
It doesn't say much of anything about who or what Satan was, just what he did.
His main role was the deciever of man who leads him into evil.

Anything about the "Fall of Satan" is after-the-fact apology and poetic license of writers and other artists.

**one_raven** · 08-08-07, 03:12 AM

Originally Posted by cole grey

It is very easy to imagine a garden of eden where God planned to have mankind eat the apple when they were better able to deal with it - perhaps when our bodies or brains were more evolved - and satan rushed us into our current painful existence. Perhaps eating the tree of life would have permanently placed us in this mode of consciousness somehow, condemning humanity to this purgatory forever.

I like that!

**Wisdom_Seeker** · 08-08-07, 08:56 AM

The serpent has symbolized the Kundalini energy for thousands of years, and the Bible is no exception of this. It is called by many names; Kundalini, Shakti, The Goddess, Serpent Power, Life energy, Isis, Virgin Mary... And he who is born of this "virgin" spiritual energy will achieve the second birth.

The serpent can be the Golden Serpent that Moses lifted up in the dessert, or it could be the tempting Serpent that "spoke" to Eve. It is the same serpent, used for good (compassion) or for bad (unwise sexual behaviour).

On the other hand, Satan just represents our Ego, and it is not bad, is necesary, but it has to be overcomed; in order for it to stop controlling our every action.
The downwards serpent is just one of the characteristics of the ego: temptation... And the upwards serpent is to overcome temptation to achieve higher consciousness.