European Population Growth

[BenTheMan]

I am at Princeton for a few weeks at a physics school, and one of my room mates is Italian, who got his PhD in America, and is currently working in Denmark.

We were talking about the differences between European culture and American culture, and (this is something that I have heard in other places, too) he mentioned that the current negative population trends in Europe are exceedingly dangerous for several reasons. The first reason is, of course, the European social services (of which they are so proud) rely on having a large work force, who still pays taxes. But this isn't going to be the case in the future, when the current generarion retires.

If the European social services begin to deteriorate, one could imagine a similar situation as in Germany, c. 1930, where a nationalistic government gains power. The immigrant communities are very segregated in Europe, to my knowledge (I have heard several European friends complain about this), and it is not too hard to imagine such a government blaming immigrants for the collapsing social services.

I'm interested to hear what you smart people think about this---is it possible that there could be a cultural backlash by Europeans toward an immigrant minority? I don't think that the Germans will be firing up any gas chambers any time soon, but I could certainly imagine a rebirth of nationalism, or Europeanalism, if the continent's beloved social net begins to collapse.

[hypewaders]

Europe is likely to handle aging population, ethnic, and funding issues with unique aplomb. Fiscally, European health care is far more diversified than (for example) using tax as exclusive revenue source. Politically, there is resilience because the many strong trade unions are particularly keen to fight for social services. Funding varies country by country, so we'll have to get more specific, if we want to make comparisons with any other social-services structures.

BenTheMan: "is it possible that there could be a cultural backlash by Europeans toward an immigrant minority?"

There are cultural backlashes all the time- It's unfortunately part of human nature. Still, it seems (as I think you would agree) that Europe has experience with and a developed resistance to nationalized racism, holocausts, wars, etc, all of which pre-dated the economically-integrating EU.

"...a rebirth of nationalism, or Europeanalism, if the continent's beloved social net begins to collapse."

I don't see any sign of a Europe-wide collapse of social services. Europeans are not encumbered by a social net any more or less than they are empowered by it. The institutions evolved separately, and so are diversified against collective vulnerablility. One thing held in common opinion across Europe is that a social safety net is expected, even definitive, of a "developed" society. Social services have remained diversified right through the process of European integration with good reason.

[Willy]

The immigrant communities are very segregated in Europe, to my knowledge (I have heard several European friends complain about this), and it is not too hard to imagine such a government blaming immigrants for the collapsing social services.

Just check out the social services in the country's these immigrants came from.

[BenTheMan]

There are cultural backlashes all the time- It's unfortunately part of human nature. Still, it seems (as I think you would agree) that Europe has experience with and a developed resistance to nationalized racism, holocausts, wars, etc, all of which pre-dated the economically-integrating EU.

Certainly. But people tend to have short memories. From what I hear, the unltra-conservative parties are becomming more and more popular in Europe, which seems to indicate a softening of the anti-nationalistism attitude that so many people adopted after the second world war.

One thing held in common opinion across Europe is that a social safety net is expected, even definitive, of a "developed" society.

And you don't think that, if that social net became untennable, that there may possibly by some outlash against under-productive/non-assimilated members of the society?

[BenTheMan]

Just check out the social services in the country's these immigrants came from.

Absolutely---you'll find no argument here. It is also worth mentioning how ironic it is that the brand of Islam that some immigrants are adopting in the West would not be tolerated in countries like Turkey (where the government is strictly secular) and, at least as of recently, Pakistan. It is only because the West allows things like freedom of religion and freedom of speech that such radical opinions are tolerated. Or, to cite another example, how they are outraged at the trend in Europe to outlaw traditional garments (like burquas), whereas in some Muslim countries it is mandatory for women to cover themselves.

[hypewaders]

A tempest in a melting-pot.

[nietzschefan]

Ben, you are asking the wrong people. We have not one chance of knowing what the international bankers have planned for Europe next year, let alone the next few years.

Ask a banker.

[Willy]

Absolutely---you'll find no argument here. It is also worth mentioning how ironic it is that the brand of Islam that some immigrants are adopting in the West would not be tolerated in countries like Turkey (where the government is strictly secular) and, at least as of recently, Pakistan. It is only because the West allows things like freedom of religion and freedom of speech that such radical opinions are tolerated. Or, to cite another example, how they are outraged at the trend in Europe to outlaw traditional garments (like burquas), whereas in some Muslim countries it is mandatory for women to cover themselves.

For the West to prove it's "Freedom of religion" the West will have to allow Muslims to destroy it.

[hypewaders]

Yep Willy, all them Muzlims are hell-bent on destroying freedom of religion in the "West".

What kind of madrasa did you learn this crap in?

[Willy]

The Muslim religion calls for it.

[hypewaders]

Every organized religion has proclaimed ultimate truth and ultimate victory for thousands of years, for so long you could even say religious and cultural wars are getting just a little old; ancient; buried. Relax, Willy: What you perceive as an all-out, total culture/religious war of annihilation is really just petty secular power-politics as usual.

[Willy]

You hope.

[hypewaders]

That's right, and hope can conquer fear, resignation, apathy, xenophobia, and paranoia. It's some good stuff. Try it.

[Read-Only]

That's right, and hope can conquer fear, resignation, apathy, xenophobia, and paranoia. It's some good stuff. Try it.

Sorry, hyper, but Willy is correct in one sense - a very important one. Islam is not tolerant of any OTHER religion, so there will always be friction with the others. It has nothing to do with "fear, resignation, apathy, xenophobia, and paranoia." It's just built into the very basis of their belief that all others are infidels.

[BenTheMan]

We have not one chance of knowing what the international bankers have planned for Europe next year, let alone the next few years.

I don't know how much this has to do with anything---specifically, how do internaitonal bankers (directly) affect how many childeren Europeans have?

[BenTheMan]

Islam is not tolerant of any OTHER religion, so there will always be friction with the others.

To be fair, I think that this statement probably doesn't apply to all of Islam.

[madanthonywayne]

Damn, Hype has some Rose colored glasses where Europe is concerned.

From what I hear, Europe is a dead man walking.

Its native population is dying off without reproducing and the immigrants coming to take their place have no interest in continuing European cultural traditions but rather seem determined to recreate the hell holes they came from.

Frankly, a right-wing reactionary takeover in Europe may be the only thing that might save it. But I seriously doubt they have it in them anymore.

I fully expect them to enjoy their social services and sneer at the barbaric Americans while their culture dies around them. I hope I'm wrong.

[Read-Only]

To be fair, I think that this statement probably doesn't apply to all of Islam.

Yes, it does - to all who follow the Quran. But to be completely fair, it's only the extremists that actually try to kill members of other religions. But all of them still consider everyone else to be an infidel. And that line between consertavite and extremist can be crossed all to easily at the urging of some fanatical idiot leader that's hungry for power. (And besides bin Laden, there are dozens of them running loose all over the world selling violence to the young and impressionable.)

[Willy]

That's right, and hope can conquer fear, resignation, apathy, xenophobia, and paranoia. It's some good stuff. Try it.

Hope can not conquer reality.

[Ophiolite]

Hope can not conquer reality.

It does it all the time. You can see this clearly by removing your shit coloured glasses and recognising that practicality is not the same as perfection.