is there free will in christianity

[Gondolin]

Awww it sounds sweet. However, I would like to ask you who it is in this world you love the most... Your mother? Your children perhaps?

Now I want you to consider what it's going to be like for you in heaven when you find out this person that you love the most is burning for eternity.

1) You wont care

2) You wont remember who they are

3) You will care

If 1 I'm glad we aint friends, if 2 I would argue as to the worth of heaven if you're not you, and don't remember your life and loved ones and if 3... well, then it's going to be as much torture for you as it is for them. They'll have the physical pain, you'll have the mental pain. Either way you're destined to eternal suffering.

What I don't get is why theists are just happy to espouse there being a hell and nobody ever asks god in their prayers to do away with the hell concept and instead think of something a little less severe. I think the theist actually enjoys the idea of people burning forever.

Bravo! Thats a big problem I have with religion. The whole "I love you but if you don't do what I wish of you, you're a goner" thing. So dumb.

Nice response.

[Celpha Fiael]

Bravo! Thats a big problem I have with religion. The whole "I love you but if you don't do what I wish of you, you're a goner" thing. So dumb.

Nice response.

I agree. SnakeLord's point is even more interesting when considering the parable of the Rich Men and Lazarus that Jesus himself told. In this parable, there is an open window between heaven and hell, where the ones in heaven even heard the agonized screams of the tortured souls below. Now if you believe this is a metaphor, we can debate its implications, but it's far more prevalent for people to believe everything in the Bible verbatim. So the situation presented would more commonly be along the lines of choice 3. The other option would be that God erases the memory of heaven's denizens upon arrival and if he's so apt to do such manipulation in heaven, I don't want to think about what he could be doing here on earth.

[mikenostic]

Now you are putting the cart of fear before the horse of belief. People choice to believe or otherwise has nothing to do with the fear of Hell. If someone believes in Hell and fears it then they already believe in God. And if someone does not believe in God then why would they fear hell? You cannot fear something you do not believe exists.

Let's say God and Jesus themselves appeared before me and proved to me beyond the shadow of a doubt that they exist and that the two choices of choose Jesus or go to hell were indeed true; I'd still tell both of them to f-off, because that would tell me that they AREN'T the benevolent, merciful deity they claim to be.

Chances??? There is no element of chance involved. Hell either exists of it don't exist.

See above.

Your not God. God is not human. Ones acceptance or rejection of God because of ones perception of His character will make not a dot of difference to the Will of God being fulfilled.

That tells me that he doesn't give a shit about what we think, and that means he doesn't give a shit about us. BECAUSE, I'll say it again and I honestly don't see how you Christians can come up with a logical apology for this:
A merciful, benevolent god is not going to force his supposedly greatest creation, one that he forced the angels to worship, to either choose him or spend an eternity in hell.
Then let's hear your Christian apology for 'God made man in his own image'. Seems pretty straighforward to me.

And like a typical Christian, you avoided my question. Would you give your children the same choice that god gave us. Forget god logic, just answer the question.

[Nutter]

A merciful, benevolent god is not going to force his supposedly greatest creation, one that he forced the angels to worship, to either choose him or spend an eternity in hell.

1. Why focus on merciful and benevolent and exclude the other attributes of God?

2. And, given that, by what authority can one claim what God is going to do in light of an incomplete, uninformed paradigm?

3. What is the point of such an exercise?

4. Is it simply trying to convince oneself that the choice and the associated consequences do not exist?

5. If in fact they do not exist, why even bother thinking about them - or posting about them?

[Nasor]

1. Why focus on merciful and benevolent and exclude the other attributes of God?

2. And, given that, by what authority can one claim what God is going to do in light of an incomplete, uninformed paradigm?

3. What is the point of such an exercise?

4. Is it simply trying to convince oneself that the choice and the associated consequences do not exist?

I assume he is attempting to make people realize that their view of God is inconsistent or self-contradictory.

5. If in fact they do not exist, why even bother thinking about them - or posting about them?

This is a whole different topic that could easily fill an entire thread. But suffice it to say that the wide-spread belief in Christianity is not a harmless thing for people who disagree with Christians or do not share their beliefs.

[Celpha Fiael]

[COLOR="Navy"]1. Why focus on merciful and benevolent and exclude the other attributes of God?

Because it is his benevolence and mercy that is in question here. A world view with a mean spirited and megalomaniacal God isn't that hard to imagine, but one that claims to be love requires a bit more explanation.

2. And, given that, by what authority can one claim what God is going to do in light of an incomplete, uninformed paradigm?

Good point, by the same token, by what authority can one claim who God is, what he says, or how he acts? It is all complete speculation, grounded in nothing.

[Enterprise-D]

Awww it sounds sweet. However, I would like to ask you who it is in this world you love the most... Your mother? Your children perhaps?

Now I want you to consider what it's going to be like for you in heaven when you find out this person that you love the most is burning for eternity.

1) You wont care

2) You wont remember who they are

3) You will care

If 1 I'm glad we aint friends, if 2 I would argue as to the worth of heaven if you're not you, and don't remember your life and loved ones and if 3... well, then it's going to be as much torture for you as it is for them. They'll have the physical pain, you'll have the mental pain. Either way you're destined to eternal suffering.

What I don't get is why theists are just happy to espouse there being a hell and nobody ever asks god in their prayers to do away with the hell concept and instead think of something a little less severe. I think the theist actually enjoys the idea of people burning forever.

I am almost embarassed to admit that the most I took this thought to is that those granted the "honor" of heaven would probably be oblivious to everything else...mind slaves if you will. I never considered the possibility that a person in this "heaven" would suffer the mental awareness that a loved one would be burning forever.

Yet another indicator that religion in general (or at least those with a hell concept) is a man-made supposition that isn't very clearly thought out...

Good point SL.

[Nasor]

if an all-knowing and all-seeing God created your ability to choose and knew everything that you were going to choose the moment he instilled that ability in you, then how is he not responsible for sending people to hell?

God knowing about our choices doesn't even really need to enter into it, since no one chooses to go to hell. According to the Christian world view, most people will simply go to hell by default - that's not at all the same as choosing to go, although they love to try to spin it that way because it allows them to avoid the issue of why their "loving" god is condemning people to an eternity of suffering.

[mikenostic]

[COLOR="Navy"]1. Why focus on merciful and benevolent and exclude the other attributes of God?

I'll add on to what Nasor already stated. Because it is stated in the bible many many times that god is a loving, forgiving god. He is merciful. Neither of those qualities would lie within a diety that 'motivates' his 'greatest creation to follow him by subjecting them with fear of burning for eternity in hell if they do not choose him.
You know, most dictators in history gave the people of their country similar choices; follow their rules or be shot/killed.

2. And, given that, by what authority can one claim what God is going to do in light of an incomplete, uninformed paradigm?

3. What is the point of such an exercise?

Uhhh what exercise?

4. Is it simply trying to convince oneself that the choice and the associated consequences do not exist?

Thiests are convinced that the associated consequences DO exist. Athiests are convinced they don't. Agnostics are convinced there is no way to know. While I think Christianity is a big crock of shit, I won't rule out either the existence of God, or Jesus (although I don't believe he was the son of God).

5. If in fact they do not exist, why even bother thinking about them - or posting about them?

Because the last time I checked, that's what this damn website is for...for posting about shit like this.

I assume he is attempting to make people realize that their view of God is inconsistent or self-contradictory.

Thanks for catching that Nasor, although I gave up trying to make people (cough cough...theists...cough cough) realize that their view of god is inconsistent a long time ago. Convincing them to believe anything other than what is within their narrow minded view is just a bit more difficult than convincing a stump or brick wall.
You just have to let them be. They will always come up with irrational apologies after another. "Because the bible says so" is probably my favorite out of all of them though.

[Celpha Fiael]

Thanks for catching that Nasor, although I gave up trying to make people (cough cough...theists...cough cough) realize that their view of god is inconsistent a long time ago. Convincing them to believe anything other than what is within their narrow minded view is just a bit more difficult than convincing a stump or brick wall.
You just have to let them be. They will always come up with irrational apologies after another. "Because the bible says so" is probably my favorite out of all of them though.

Oh I'm so glad somebody else shares the frustration of trying to introduce reason to someone like you mentioned. It's horribly fascinating; by subscribing to their faith, they simultaneously commit intellectual suicide, forever cutting them off from any thread of logic holding them to any other idea or conviction other than what they are immersed deep in. In fact, the more evidence you pile up against them, the more virtuous it is seen to resist it.

My favorite is "No no no, see what you're doing is using human logic and human reasoning. God is above science and all that."

"Oooooooooh, you're right, now it makes perfect sense! Whoops, I mean perfect God sense, which is, as far as my feeble anthropomorphically designed mind can tell, is synonymous with insanity."

[SnakeLord]

Good point SL.

Thanks. It's just always bugged me given my actual love for my kids.

Let's suppose for a second that I'm some "goddie two shoes", (typo purposeful), and end up going to heaven. So there I am wafting away or playing harp - whatever, and realise that wait.. where's my daughter? I find out from heavenly admin that my daughter is currently residing in hell and will do so forever and ever and ever. What's next? Can I make a formal complaint to god?

If so, can I start now? I'm sure every theist on the planet will sign my petition for the removal of hell. So, the theists here up for that? Would they sign if I wrote a petition to god for the removal of eternal burning?

(I doubt I'd get many to sign because, as stated, I'm sure they actually like the notion of people burning)

One further question to the theists..

So god takes your complaint on board and says "look dude, I will bring your child [loved one] to heaven if you take his/her place. Call it a straight swap."

How many here would agree to his terms?

[Celpha Fiael]

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say they actually like the thought of people burning (save a select few), I think it's more the feeling of being comforted. "I'm going to heaven," is all that really matters, "you're going to hell" is just a way to retain their comfort in the face of opposing viewpoints. Their world view is one that works, as long as one can remain ignorant; our attempts of educating them spells destruction of their beliefs, and hence their comfort.

[Orleander]

...How many here would agree to his terms?

I would in a heartbeat.
But don't think its not gonna be without a guilt trip.

[Satyr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSW2_JU1IaE
dont look like it,eh?

There is a “free-will” in Christianity, as long as this free-will is dedicated to imitating the Will of “God”.
If it is not, then it leads straight to ‘hell”.

[Michael]

Oh I'm so glad somebody else shares the frustration of trying to introduce reason to someone like you mentioned. It's horribly fascinating; by subscribing to their faith, they simultaneously commit intellectual suicide, forever cutting them off from any thread of logic holding them to any other idea or conviction other than what they are immersed deep in. In fact, the more evidence you pile up against them, the more virtuous it is seen to resist it.

One time my friends sister (a Baptist) over heard us debating about God and suddenly, when I was about to say my next point, she started repeating Na Na Na Na Na NANANANANANANANANANAANAAAAANANANAAAANANAAAa... so that she or her brother couldn't hear my reply. Then she ran from the room.

Yes, intellectual suicide for sure,
MII

[Celpha Fiael]

One time my friends sister (a Baptist) over heard us debating about God and suddenly, when I was about to say my next point, she started repeating Na Na Na Na Na NANANANANANANANANANAANAAAAANANANAAAANANAAAa... so that she or her brother couldn't hear my reply. Then she ran from the room.

Yes, intellectual suicide for sure,
MII

Like this? haha, oh emoticons, you are wonderful.

I heard a story one time of this Christian man who, while walking down a city street, picked up a ringing pay phone. The voice on the other line spoke, "Stand on your head." The man did (confirming our suspicions that he's a mindless dumbass obeying anything he hears without question). Shortly thereafter, a car pulled up and a man ran out of it, crying. He came up to the upside down Christian man and cried, "I prayed to God and said that if he was real, to prove it to me by there being a man standing on his head around the next corner!"

I don't think that's pertinent, I just was reminded of it by your own funny story. The sad part is there's no telling how many converts that story won over...

[Adstar]

Let's say God and Jesus themselves appeared before me and proved to me beyond the shadow of a doubt that they exist and that the two choices of choose Jesus or go to hell were indeed true; I'd still tell both of them to f-off, because that would tell me that they AREN'T the benevolent, merciful deity they claim to be.

And that’s your free willed choice. You demonstrate that Hell has no effect on your free willed choice by making it clear that if you came to understand the reality of the eternal lake of fire you would still reject the Will of God. Thus Free will is.

That tells me that he doesn't give a shit about what we think, and that means he doesn't give a shit about us. BECAUSE, I'll say it again and I honestly don't see how you Christians can come up with a logical apology for this:

If he didn't give a damn about us why would he provide us with the option of eternity in Paradise? Why would He extend the message of His will to us at all? If he didn't give a damn then why would he bother creating us in the first place and why didn't He just destroy us upon our discovery of good and evil?

You can discard any explanation you want to and in the end We followers of the Messiah Jesus do not need to give a detailed explanation of Gods will and why He has done and will do what he has done and will do. Let each person accept or reject what they will.

A merciful, benevolent god is not going to force his supposedly greatest creation, one that he forced the angels to worship, to either choose him or spend an eternity in hell.
Then let's hear your Christian apology for 'God made man in his own image'. Seems pretty straighforward to me.

The price of sin is death you can rebel against that or accept that if you want. God is merciful and has shown that mercy through the redeeming act of the messiah Jesus. God could have chosen to destroy all of creation on the day we learnt the knowledge of good and evil. But He has been longsuffering towards us knowing that he will redeem some through the justice of His mercy.

You can accept or reject His will and you can tag Him with any emotional tags you want . But in the end His will shall be done irrespective of the vain and prideful rebellion that dwells in the spirit of those who reject his will.

And like a typical Christian, you avoided my question. Would you give your children the same choice that god gave us. Forget god logic, just answer the question.

Forget asking me such questions. I am not God. We are talking about God here not a human being.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Celpha Fiael]

And that’s your free willed choice. You demonstrate that Hell has no effect on your free willed choice by making it clear that if you came to understand the reality of the eternal lake of fire you would still reject the Will of God. Thus Free will is.





If he didn't give a damn about us why would he provide us with the option of eternity in Paradise? Why would He extend the message of His will to us at all? If he didn't give a damn then why would he bother creating us in the first place and why didn't He just destroy us upon our discovery of good and evil?

You can discard any explanation you want to and in the end We followers of the Messiah Jesus do not need to give a detailed explanation of Gods will and why He has done and will do what he has done and will do. Let each person accept or reject what they will.





The price of sin is death you can rebel against that or accept that if you want. God is merciful and has shown that mercy through the redeeming act of the messiah Jesus. God could have chosen to destroy all of creation on the day we learnt the knowledge of good and evil. But He has been longsuffering towards us knowing that he will redeem some through the justice of His mercy.

You can accept or reject His will and you can tag Him with any emotional tags you want . But in the end His will shall be done irrespective of the vain and prideful rebellion that dwells in the spirit of those who reject his will.





Forget asking me such questions. I am not God. We are talking about God here not a human being.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Enterprise-D]

And that’s your free willed choice. You demonstrate that Hell has no effect on your free willed choice by making it clear that if you came to understand the reality of the eternal lake of fire you would still reject the Will of God. Thus Free will is.

---

If he didn't give a damn about us why would he provide us with the option of eternity in Paradise? Why would He extend the message of His will to us at all? If he didn't give a damn then why would he bother creating us in the first place and why didn't He just destroy us upon our discovery of good and evil?

If he gave a damn about us, why not just eliminate earth completely and put all 6 billion of us, with no defects, straight into Paradise? He is after all omnipotent right? This would be possible.

You can discard any explanation you want to and in the end We followers of the Messiah Jesus do not need to give a detailed explanation of Gods will and why He has done and will do what he has done and will do. Let each person accept or reject what they will.

You do however expect us to accept it wholesale.

The price of sin is death you can rebel against that or accept that if you want. God is merciful and has shown that mercy through the redeeming act of the messiah Jesus. God could have chosen to destroy all of creation on the day we learnt the knowledge of good and evil. But He has been longsuffering towards us knowing that he will redeem some through the justice of His mercy.

1. How is requiring evidence or even a single logical explanation a sin? (You already said that not being a follower will constrict the non-believer to hell).
2. How do you know he hasn't destroyed creation 3, 74 or even 281 times already? Assuming you're right about creation in the first place.
3. Are you self loating? God is 'longsuffering' towards us? I think the god you describe could learn a thing or two about morals from me.

You can accept or reject His will and you can tag Him with any emotional tags you want . But in the end His will shall be done irrespective of the vain and prideful rebellion that dwells in the spirit of those who reject his will.

Might makes right eh Addy?

[mikenostic]

And that’s your free willed choice. You demonstrate that Hell has no effect on your free willed choice by making it clear that if you came to understand the reality of the eternal lake of fire you would still reject the Will of God. Thus Free will is.

Thanks for filling me in on something that I already have full realization of there;
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f3...n20obvious.jpg
I love how Christians still view having just two choices, accept a supposedly benevolent deity, or burn for eternity in hell, as 'free will'. Oooooh. Wow. We have the free will to choose between serving a deity that falsely claims that he's benevolent, and spending an eternity in hell.
It's not free will any way you spin it. And let me tell you why:
Did you ask to be born, Adstar?
Enterprise, did you ask to be born into this world?
Satyr, Orleander, Celpha, did any of you ask to be born into this world?
I know I didn't. How's that for free will?

If he didn't give a damn about us why would he provide us with the option of eternity in Paradise? Why would He extend the message of His will to us at all? If he didn't give a damn then why would he bother creating us in the first place and why didn't He just destroy us upon our discovery of good and evil?

Because he actually supposedly waited until Noah came around and killed everyone cept him, his peeps, and a few animals, by flooding the whole earth. What's the difference? Because man had become too wicked by then? That may be, but man became wicked whilst his benevolent, merciful creator sat up in heaven on his ass and watched and didn't do a damn thing about it; and omnipotency includes clairvoyancy. If that's the case, god sat back and watched these people become wicked, knowing what they would do (which debunks free will right there) before they were going to do it, yet condemned them to hell anyway.

The price of sin is death you can rebel against that or accept that if you want. God is merciful and has shown that mercy through the redeeming act of the messiah Jesus. God could have chosen to destroy all of creation on the day we learnt the knowledge of good and evil. But He has been longsuffering towards us knowing that he will redeem some through the justice of His mercy.

Why would an omnipotent deity need to create such an elaborate 'act' of sending his son to earth to die for all of our sins? Why would a benevolent merciful deity even need blood sacrifices before this happened? Why would a perfect deity need to have the 'rules' changed from the OT to the NT? If something needed to be changed, then that means that what god created to begin with wasn't working and something had to be changed. Hmmmm.
Couldn't an omnipotent deity just wave his magic wand and wish all our sins away?

You can accept or reject His will and you can tag Him with any emotional tags you want . But in the end His will shall be done irrespective of the vain and prideful rebellion that dwells in the spirit of those who reject his will.

I think you mean the people who actually refuse to be lemmings and blindly follow such blatant bullshit in the bible (whether it was written by him or not). Faith that does not question is dead faith.

Forget asking me such questions. I am not God. We are talking about God here not a human being.

I will not forget asking you such questions. You are deliberately avoiding my question; like a whiny little brat would do when they realize they can't win. How about you answer it instead of giving me the usual Christian apology bullshit? Or are you too chicken shit to answer it because you are afraid it will actually make sense? If you can't or are too pussy to answer it, then I really don't want to see any responses from you at all.

All Praise The day when religion is universally recognized as a crock of shit

So just keep coming with your irrational apologies/arguments; as you can see in this thread, I'm not the only one having fun shooting them down.