what do women get out of islam?

men get 72 virgins
women get 2nd or 3rd class status, depending
men can divorce easily
most muslim countries are run patriarchal
honor killings
veils
headscarves
hajib, burqa
2nd class education
arranged marriages
no leadership positions, except for Pakistan

I mean, Khadijah was the boss, rich, CEO

so what happened to equal rights?

 

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Duh, just like all other beliefs, they get to live after they're dead. If it were not for this - very few, maybe no one, would believe any of it. So it's all about the fear of death. Better to suffer through this crappy life now and get to live in a paradise - after dieing :bugeye:

 

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the religion was curropted the quran states that woman should be respected and treated well some of the hadiths or even more obvious about this

 

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Actually, the Islam face is embracing liberation, with the onset of the Jihad.
Female suicide bombers are quite common, now.

They can attain instant status, and are being given personal property for the suit of training, and those who can enlist best are given near equal rights. For the cause.

 

Yeah, that's right. Hey, do the Muslim female suicide bombers get 72 virgin men as a reward in heaven?

Baron Max

 

Actually, I read it is suppose to read 72 white raisins.

 

Muslim women only get 2nd/3rd class in uncivilized nations under faulty rulers. You can't judge Islam based off the mess of a nation. Your title to this thread is grossly misleading.

The headscarf is an adaptation from a verse in the Quran that tells women to cover the bodies and not wear tight clothing. There is nothing about covering your face, or completely being encumbered in a burqa. This is a man-made tradition.

Second class education happens to Muslim women in places like the Taliban-ruled Afghanistan. These people have deviated from Islam and implement their own ideas into a religion and present it as official.

Arranged marriages are a completely traditionary custom and is not supported by Islam. People are permitted to marry whom they please; it is not dictated by religion. People nowadays who practice arranged marriaging usually do it to gain wealth for themselves from the other families. That's why it happens.

Men nor women can divorce "easily". Divorcing is an issue that is looked down heavily upon because of the negative effects it causes. Children with only one parent in their life are very prone to engaging in illegal activity and based on school-related studies, do much worse in the educational department.

Your arguments do happen today in our world, and in Muslim dominated nations at that. However, that does not make it affiliated whatsoever with Islam.

If you would like to post verses from the Holy Qur'an which say women should not get equal education to men, be encumbered in burqas, serve as "honor killings", and be forced into marriages, then by all means, go ahead. I do have a feeling, however, that you will find there is no evidence from the Quran, the head of Islam, to support these claims.

If you were to read the Qur'an, though, it would distinctly say that men and women are equal.

 

This may be true but this line of argument IMHO reminds me of the same sort of argument used to justify Communism. If one were to read the Communist Manifesto there is no such talk of draconian dictatorships and the people are equal and treated just. But in practice that just isn't the case. Societies where the majority or people are Muslim have over the last 1400 years treated people uneuqally.

Polygamy for men.
Legalized and Institutionalized Slavery
Legal Religious discrimination.
ect....

You can argue that the Qur'an says this or that but to me that's like arguing the Communist Manifesto says this or that. But over here in reality we see all Islamic countries for the last 1400 years suffering the same ills. Just as we see Communist countries suffer similar ills.

If Islam can not ban Slavery in 1400 years and it took European and American pressure for them to do so - what does that say about Islam?

My point is it doesn't matter whats in a book, what matters is if it works and whether people's lives are better for it.

Communism sounded good but didn't work.
Islam may sound good to some people - but regardless, it didn't work.

Michael

 

Islam, in its Golden Age, was during the Ottoman Empire. That was the largest Islamic empire ever created, and ruled for nearly 640 years. The people under this empire were very fair and treated different genders equally. If we look to successful, moral empires of Islam, we see the fundamentals of the religion being performed fairly accurately.

Before Islam was created, men had hundrands of wives, most of them for sex. Muhammad restricted the infinite number of wives a man could have to four, and that is only if the man can provide equally and adequately for all four. There are also many restrictions and side information about this - it isn't as easy as it seems.

The slavery you talk about is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING like the slavery Americans put blacks through. This "slavery" is a person working for another person and getting paid for it. The slave is paid, his family is kept in tact, he is absolutely in no way tortured or killed, and the slave can work his way out of his profession (if he pleases). These two types of "slavery" are in other worlds in terms of similarity.

Like what? Are you referring to the tax non-Muslims in Muslim lands had to pay? What part of paying a fee to have the Muslim army protect you sounds strange? You pay, and you're defended.

Not necessarily. The Muslims flourished under the Ottoman Empire, and from the prophet's time up until 70 years ago had been blooming. Until WWI, the majority of Muslims were living under rational leaders and followed their religions productively. They contributed to the world in so many ways, and didn't have this inner-turmoil we see today. The Muslims suffering under faulty dictators is a reasonably new thing.

If you follow the book truly, you will live a better life. Tell me, how good can you make a cake if you don't follow the ingredients? Hmm?

Communism is not a religion. These are polar-different things we're comparing here.

 

Muslim men treat me better than non-Muslim men.

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You say the genders were equal. Could women take 4 husbands? Did women hold the highest positions of government? Did women become judges? Did women in general rule over men?

Also, can you give me the dates. From when to when.

I agree that the Ottoman Empire, like all empires, had an "Golden Age" but I am curious:
During this Golden Age:
– what is the best mechanical invention you know of?
- The greatest painter you appreciate?
- The greatest sculptor?
- The greatest mathematician and type of math?
- The greatest play write?

I’m just curious.

Oh come on! most men did not have "hundreds" of wives. Pfffff! Most men would be lucky to afford a single wife. They ain't cheap!

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Secondly, some Ottomans emulated Muhammad and had many more than 4 wives. Speaking of which - why did Muhammad have more than one wife? A little hypocritical it seems to me.

Lastly, you seem to think going from hundreds to 4 is a good thing. I don't. I think going from hundreds to 1 is a good thing. I find polygamy immoral. But that's of course just my perspective.

It is interesting to note that pre-Communism, many Chinese men were polygamists. It was ended for hundreds of millions of Chinese by Governmental Communist decrees.

Very very quickly in Communist China polygamy was legally ended, Slavery was legally ended and women were given legal equal status. Over night really. Does this mean Communism is good? Well, not to me because it simply didn't work.

You’ll have to find a link. During the Ottoman Empire Slaves were sold on an open market. Slaves were not freemen. They were kept as property. They were humans that were owned by other humans. They could not leave their master and make their own way in this world.

I think you’d agree sugar coated dog-shit does not sound appetizing and you would not be the first volunteering to eat it. So why try to be a Slavery Apologist? Just admit it was wrong and thank the Gods we don't legally do it now.

Why is Slavery Illegal in Islamic countries today?

Legal discrimination based on the a person’s belief is considered immoral by me.

Oh come on, you seemed to have missed the entire destruction of the ME by the Mongolians. They killed and raped countless Muslims. Jesus, just the destruction of the libraries in Baghdad make me sad

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I was under the impression that like all empires the Ottoman Empire had a number of weak successors and was crumbling from within? Much like the Roman Empire, the Chinese Empire, the Tokugawa shogunate, ect.... everything has it’s time and place and for awhile they work. Then people figure out how to work the system and everything goes to hell. If not WWII it would have happened anyway. Only Democracy seems to stave off the inevitable, and for how long who knows.

OK, I've asked this many times of many Muslims, tell me one novel and enlightening thing you have read in the Qur'an? Something not expressed earlier by Greek philosophers or Indian aesthetics etc... something new that is also enlightening. And the phrase ... ".. ... ..and Mohammad is the Last Prophet" is not enlightening and says nothing of the human condition. It is a statement.

So? Anything?



Also, and this should be a snap, please tell me something that you personally read in the Qur'an that was enlightening for you and gave you an epiphany about the human condition.

That should be a peace of cake for such an important book aye?

I was referring to the political systems. Neither worked. Communism failed and Islam devolved quickly into the feudal system of Empire used by most societies in most parts of the world for most of human history. The religion may have been Islam but the system was the same old same old.

Michael

 

I'm converting - if the women can cook

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Women weren't allowed four husbands for this simple reason: one man can get four women pregnant. Four men can not each get one woman pregnant. If it were four men and a woman, each man could want a child for themselves but be unable to do so. If four women wanted a child, then that one man would be able to grant each of their wishes. Women were able to become judges or any other sort of figure in their society. There is not a single thing in the Qur'an that suggests what roles women can and cannot play in society.

1299-1922. (623 years, about). There are still people alive today who lived under this Empire, so it isn't as long ago as you may think.

In those regions in which Islamic Art developed it was founded on an already on an established basis of pre-Islamic civilization, the most important of these being the Late Antique and Christian cultures of Syria, and the Sasanian arts of Iran. The Arabic, Persian and Turkish elements added to these formed the basis of the development of Islamic Art. The majority of the states in the Islamic world were founded by the Turks and for nearly one thousand years, from the 9th century onwards the Turks, apart from some minor instances, remained the dominant element in the Islamic world.

The development of Turkish art was influenced by the arts of a number of different countries. The tomb of Ismail the Samanid at Bukhara dating from the first half the roth century played an important role, as a monument of revolutionary design derived from the Sasanian fire-temples, Karakhanid and Seljuk tomb design, and on top of this, the influence of the external appearance of Buddhist stupas. The plan of the Ghaznevid palaces is derived from the Sasanids, but also shows the influence of Abbasid palace architecture. Other architectural forms such as the iwan, the squinch and the dome are also forms derived from the Sasanids. But in spite of this, in all monuments of Turkish art, in whatever geographical region they may be, there is a distinctive style clearly separate from any of the styles which influenced it.

Concepts of Ottoman architecture mainly circle around the mosque. The mosque was integral to society, city planning and communal life. Besides the mosque, it is also possible to find good examples of Ottoman architecture in soup kitchens, theological schools, hospitals, Turkish baths and tombs.

Examples of Ottoman architecture of the classical period, aside from İstanbul and Edirne, can also be seen in Egypt, Eritrea, Tunisia, Algiers, the Balkans and Hungary, where mosques, bridges, fountains and schools were built.

Look up how trigonometry, algebra, geography, chemistry, medicines, all were developed. The Islamic empires.

As music was an important part of the education of the Ottoman elite, a number of the Ottoman sultans were accomplished musicians and composers themselves, such as Selim III, whose compositions are still frequently performed today. Due to a geographic and cultural divide between the capital and other areas, two broadly distinct styles of music arose in the Ottoman Empire: Ottoman classical music, and folk music.

Ottoman classical music arose largely from a confluence of Byzantine music, Arabic music, and Persian music. Compositionally, it is organised around rhythmic units called usul, which are somewhat similar to meter in Western music, and melodic units called makam, which bear some resemblance to Western musical modes. The instruments used are a mixture of Anatolian and Central Asian instruments (the saz, the bağlama, the kemence), other Middle Eastern instruments (the ud, the tanbur, the kanun, the ney), and — later in the tradition — Western instruments (the violin and the piano).

In the provinces, several different kinds of Folk music were created. The most dominant regions with their distinguished musical styles are: Balkan-Thracian Turkus, North-Eastern Turkus(Laz), Aegean Turkus, Central Anatolian Turkus, Eastern Anatolian Turkus, and Caucasian Turkus. There is no separate style for Istanbul, because Turkish Classical Music was preferred here.

This is both absurd and not true. You don't know what you're talking about. Men did have hundreds of wives, and even the poorest could easily have ten. They didn't cost money like they do today. Weddings weren't thousands of dollars, and like I said, they didn't really look after them. They were mostly for sexual pleasure.

Can you give me the names of these "some Ottomans"? And did I not say the Ottoman empire was "fairly accurate" with reflecting the teachings of Islam?

A Muslim would respect your decision as having only one fully. Now why can't you accept his? The women are not forced to marry a man already married to other women. It is the woman's choice. Think of that.

I caught you in the middle of a big FAT LIE.

Here is what the Ottoman's thought of slavery (and I quote):

"The Ottomans did not approve of slavery in their empire."

"Trafficking in slaves was expressively forbidden by the Ottomanapplication of sharia, or Islamic law."

The Ottoman Empire was one of the strongest empires ever. It stood for over 620 strong years and controlled an enormous amount of land. They represented Islam, but fully respected other religions as well. The Jews, when bannished from Spain, were welcome with open arms by the Ottomans. Democracy has been in place for the strongest country in the world (US) for about 60 years (after WW2). How do you match 60 to 600+? If the US and democracy last even 200 years, I'll be surprised, let alone 623.

This is BS. If it is enlightening for me, then why does it have to be enlightening for you? I've read the whole Qur'an and find it the perfect book. I find it enlightening. If that doesn't work for you, then what do you want me to do?

Everything. The whole Quran is a flawless book and Allah tells us he has omitted nothing from within it. Everything a person would like to know can be found in that book, if they search deep enough.

 

ALL Muslim men ....and ALL non-Muslim men? Or just the ones that you've associated with? Big difference ya' know? Are you judging "all" by the actions of only a few?

Baron Max

 

obviously the onces she has associated with. how could she judge the ones she has not associated with?


peace.

 

Right Baron, I mean have you randomly taken 20 muslim men
and 20 non muslim men.......and compared how they treat you?

Men are all different they could be Italian, Canadian, German,
whatever........some are nice and MOST are pricks :bugeye:

 

Woman is a female, it's designed to bear and raise children (from the "fittest" man, of course). What woman get in Muslim countries is protection, belonging to a family, thus she feels more at ease to multiply and grow the pups. Even in the liberated West, one of the biggest fear of a woman is LONELINESS (even though societary selection/training makes some dents in this fear).

 

I've lived in a Muslim country and non-Muslim countries. In general, I was treated better by the Muslims. Among the non-Muslims the Europeans treated me better than the Americans.

 

Ahh, but ...how were you dressed? What color is your skin? How did you act toward the two different people. In what part of the cities did you frequent?

Lots of things can determine how you're treated. And just for my own curiosity, how did you know the religious beliefs of all of those people?

Baron Max

 

Jeez you make some good points sometimes:bugeye:
This is a valid point, I get treated differently when I all
dressed up versus running out to pick up some groceries
looking like a bum.