Both Muslim AND Christian?

[ashura]

We aren't invalidating anything.

The point I was trying to make was that it was written by men, and even devout and conscientious men are fallible and make mistakes in copying and translating. Others are susceptible to temptations of power –*and what's more powerful than having some control over what a bible says?

So maybe we shouldn't try to be so literal, and instead try to glean the meaning.

Take Leviticus, for example. It is the foundation of Mosaic and Davidic law. It not only concerns ritual laws, but also establishes guidelines of health, hygiene and public welfare. At the time, these were very important rules. An outbreak of mildew or dysentery in a desert community would be devastating. Rabbis were trained to address such problems, and the people were directed to take specific steps to avoid them.

However, much of Mosaic and Davidic law has been since disregarded as "obsolete," and rightly so. Improvements in civilization, agriculture, architecture, sanitation and the like have made calling a rabbi when you have mildew in your bathtub no longer necessary. But the spirit of the law remains: It is your responsibility to show your god your appreciation by taking care of your health, home and community.

That's why reading the whole thing, not just the bumper stickers, is so important.

The people that truly invalidate the christian bible are the "cafeteria christians," of which there are many. They want to be free of 90% of the canon of Mosaic law –*from which antinomianism frees them entirely, anyway –*yet cling to the remaining 10% that they believe validates their bigotry.

So then isn't what you're doing simply invalidating the literal while trying to keep the spirit?

I understand the reasons, you don't have to repeat them. But I don't understand why you wouldn't call it invalidating.

[TruthSeeker]

Tylonius,

What do you think about rituals? Do you find them obcessive? Are they completely useless?

[Tylonius]

So then isn't what you're doing simply invalidating the literal while trying to keep the spirit?

Think of it this way: In 1543, Nicolaus Copernicus published De revolutionibus orbium coelestium (On the Revolutions of the Celestial Spheres), which sparked a revolution of science and the birth of modern astronomy. It also set the church on its ear, because religious dogma at the time maintained that the earth was the center of the universe. It even said so in the bible (Old Testament - Joshua and Ecclisiastes). To say that the earth revolved around the sun was blasphemy.

The fact that they were wrong didn't invalidate their belief, it just meant that they were wrong.

Moreover, it cleared the way for immanence, which is now a major tenet of both the Christian and Muslim faith (among others). It represented a major shift in Christianity from keeping their god at arms length to embracing him in all things.

Again, that change didn't invalidate their beliefs at all. It merely represented their evolution.

Finally, and most ironically, it later turned out that practically all of the details of Copernicus' observations were wrong. But you know, the earth still revolves around the sun, regardless.

[Tylonius]

What do you think about rituals? Do you find them obcessive? Are they completely useless?

That depends on your faith, I suppose.

Personally, I don't go in for them, but I can see why others do.

[Wisdom_Seeker]

I liked your post Tylonius, but I have some questions about it. For one, the idea of invalidating a part of the Bible, or the Quran. If you can invalidate one part on a whim, simply because it was written by men, what stops you from invalidating the entire thing?

This seems to be a very popular question, I even found myself wondering about the same question many years ago… I think you should look at the Bible the same way you look at nature, or how you look at a woman in a relationship…
If you look at other people with a preconceived judgment, then you are focusing on the bad aspects of their personality from your perspective. And if you think about it, most people do this, focus on the “bad things” of others according to your standards. This is hypocrisy.
If you keep this mentality of focusing on what you think is evil or wrong, then you will definitely miss the most important part of the person’s personality. You fail to see yourself in the position of others.
If you keep focusing on what you think is “wrong or bad” on your partner, then you are trapped in the cage of your own judgments.

We need to learn to see the beauty in everything, in every living creature, see the good side of everyone’s personality; then you learn to have true love and compassion without discrimination. This is important for reading any book, and then it doesn’t matter if you read the Bible, the Koran or a normal novel, you can learn from everything if you look at it with compassionate eyes.

[S.A.M.]

If you look at other people with a preconceived judgment, then you are focusing on the bad aspects of their personality from your perspective. And if you think about it, most people do this, focus on the “bad things” of others according to your standards. This is hypocrisy.
If you keep this mentality of focusing on what you think is evil or wrong, then you will definitely miss the most important part of the person’s personality. You fail to see yourself in the position of others.
If you keep focusing on what you think is “wrong or bad” on your partner, then you are trapped in the cage of your own judgments.

We need to learn to see the beauty in everything, in every living creature, see the good side of everyone’s personality; then you learn to have true love and compassion without discrimination. This is important for reading any book, and then it doesn’t matter if you read the Bible, the Koran or a normal novel, you can learn from everything if you look at it with compassionate eyes.

I agree with your sentiments. Now if only more people could see it this way.

[Tylonius]

Hear, hear, Wisdom_Seeker!

[ashura]

Think of it this way: In 1543, Nicolaus Copernicus published De revolutionibus orbium coelestium (On the Revolutions of the Celestial Spheres), which sparked a revolution of science and the birth of modern astronomy. It also set the church on its ear, because religious dogma at the time maintained that the earth was the center of the universe. It even said so in the bible (Old Testament - Joshua and Ecclisiastes). To say that the earth revolved around the sun was blasphemy.

The fact that they were wrong didn't invalidate their belief, it just meant that they were wrong.

Moreover, it cleared the way for immanence, which is now a major tenet of both the Christian and Muslim faith (among others). It represented a major shift in Christianity from keeping their god at arms length to embracing him in all things.

Again, that change didn't invalidate their beliefs at all. It merely represented their evolution.

Finally, and most ironically, it later turned out that practically all of the details of Copernicus' observations were wrong. But you know, the earth still revolves around the sun, regardless.

I didn't mention invalidating their belief which I'm sure remained strong as ever. I mentioned invalidating a part of the Bible. If you can so easily render obsolete one part, you can do the same for any part of it, or even the whole, no?

This seems to be a very popular question, I even found myself wondering about the same question many years ago… I think you should look at the Bible the same way you look at nature, or how you look at a woman in a relationship…
If you look at other people with a preconceived judgment, then you are focusing on the bad aspects of their personality from your perspective. And if you think about it, most people do this, focus on the “bad things” of others according to your standards. This is hypocrisy.
If you keep this mentality of focusing on what you think is evil or wrong, then you will definitely miss the most important part of the person’s personality. You fail to see yourself in the position of others.
If you keep focusing on what you think is “wrong or bad” on your partner, then you are trapped in the cage of your own judgments.

We need to learn to see the beauty in everything, in every living creature, see the good side of everyone’s personality; then you learn to have true love and compassion without discrimination. This is important for reading any book, and then it doesn’t matter if you read the Bible, the Koran or a normal novel, you can learn from everything if you look at it with compassionate eyes.

You start off with preconceived judgment. What is it that makes you think I have this when I look at the Bible? I read, and then I create an opinion. Not the other way around.

And I'm a little confused here. Are you telling me to ignore the bad for the good then, when it comes to the Bible or the Quran?

[WildBlueYonder]

Lingual differences do not equal different God and prophets. Arabic is related to Hebrew and Aramaic as a semitic language. Because we call Jesus Isa (peace be to him) and Elohim, Allah swt, this does not mean we mean different things.

ahhh, my little friend, you are so wrong, your assumption is that cognates = each other. but they sometimes drift apart, you see if you understood the mormon concept of god, Jesus, heaven, etc...., they would be different in many ways, same word, different meanings, its like a jargon


http://spanish.about.com/cs/vocabula...gnategloss.htm

Definition: In a technical sense, two words that have a common origin are cognates. Most often, cognates are words in two languages that have a common etymology and thus are similar or identical. For example, the English "kiosk" and the Spanish quiosco are cognates because they both come from the Turkish kosk.
…

Examples: Cognate pairs with similar meanings number in the thousands and include "azure"/azul, "committee"/comité and "morphine"/morfina. Spanish cognates that are false friends include asistir (which usually means "to attend," not "to assist"), contestar (which usually means "to answer," not "to contest") and sano (which usually means "healthy" rather than "sane").

which brings us to islam; question, does allah have daughters? in mormon belief, Jesus & satan are spirit brothers, conceived by Elohim, having sex with the mother goddess, isn't that how allah got his daughters?

http://www.dhushara.com/paradoxhtm/vale.htm

However the deep association with astral worship is still represented by the star and crescent of Islam, the astral symbols prefigured in the perennial ubiquitous symbolic relationship between the crescent moon of Nannar or Sin the moon god and Venus the evening star of Inanna, Ishtar and al-Uzza, who is also a moon goddess, spanning much of Mesopotamian and Arabic culture and history. The source of these traditions originates in two ‘high’ cultures, one in Southern Arabia, and the other in what is now Jordan.
…

In Mecca, Allah was originally paired with his ‘daughters’ - the banat al-Lah. Briffault notes: “This Arabian goddess was triune, being also known as the three Holy Virgins”. The Manat consisted of al-Lat “the goddess”, Q're (possibly Kore) the Virgin, and al-Uzza the ‘powerful one’. Al-Uzza was the moon. Manat was bringer of good and bad luck, just as the fates, and the Arabic term mana. He claims al Uzza was also worshipped at Mecca:

“Al-Kindy says that Al-Uzza was the moon, her chief shrine being the Ka’aba at Mecca, where she was worshipped in the form of a sacred stone, ... the very stone which the pilgrims to this day visit Mecca to kiss. In doing so the pilgrims recite Caliph Omar's warning declaration: ‘I know well that you are a stone that can neither do good nor evil, and unless I had seen the prophet, on whom be prayer and the blessings of god kiss you, I would not kiss you’.”( R76v3)

what does all this prove?
that allah was a pagan god, that was sanitized by Mohammad into a more monotheistic model for islam, but it kept many of the pre-islamic rituals, I mean, why change them? you already have a changed, cleaned up god

[Adstar]

As a person of the book, she is welcome to pray with Muslims even if she is a Christian, if she so wants. In fact, I am pretty certain that anyone who wanted to pray with Muslims even if they were not Muslims would not be denied. I have visited plenty of temples and churches in my life (including the National Cathedral in Washington, a most beautiful church)

Your prayers where in vain. And any supposed christian who prays with muslims are taking part in their blasphemy against God.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Adstar]

I thought mods and members were not allowed to personally attack other members.

Just because you don't believe in God doesn't give you any right to cr@p all over me and mine.

I don't personally attack you or your unbelief.

Sandy anti Christian bigotry is allowed in here, but it will be answered by the God in time.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[nova900]

Your prayers where in vain. And any supposed christian who prays with muslims are taking part in their blasphemy against God.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Not true!
God welcomes all people to join together in prayer. It is man who embraces the "separate and divide" mentality..not God.
Despite differences in faith they all do have that one common bond,right?
God is not intolerant and petty as some would believe...these are negative qualities of humanity that stem from ignorance and have been applied to Gods' character by unscruplous people.
Various faiths and beliefs are simply tools that all lead to the one God

[ashura]

Not true!
God welcomes all people to join together in prayer. It is man who embraces the "separate and divide" mentality..not God.
Despite differences in faith they all do have that one common bond,right?
God is not intolerant and petty as some would believe...these are negative qualities of humanity that stem from ignorance and have been applied to Gods' character by unscruplous people.
Various faiths and beliefs are simply tools that all lead to the one God

Where did you get this concept of God from and what makes you think it's true? How do you know the God of the Bible or the God of the Quran, which most certainly embraces the separate mentality, isn't 100% true?

[nova900]

Where did you get this concept of God from and what makes you think it's true? How do you know the God of the Bible or the God of the Quran, which most certainly embraces the separate mentality, isn't 100% true?

From my own intuition,from reading hundreds of near-death experiences,from realizing that most religions have at their core beliefs "the God within concept"(the kingdom within), from realizing that when you mix the concept of God with people that have power it can usually lead to ..."let's use God to control people".

The thing is , I claim no absolutes when it comes to this matter..it's just my opinion, which is why I don't attempt to convert people to my line of thought.

[Wisdom_Seeker]

And I'm a little confused here. Are you telling me to ignore the bad for the good then, when it comes to the Bible or the Quran?

The thing is not thinking about good or wrong here. Take what you find of value, dismiss what you feel not to be true.

If you look at the Bible and Quran, you will find a significant discrimination towards women. What I’m saying is that the words in the Bible and Quran were inspired by God, but are not the literal words of God. Female and male are not the same, but none is superior to the other, they have to be deal with differently, but never comparatively.
In the OT, you can see how Eve came out of Adam’s rib, a freaking rib!! I would have given my spinal cord in order to see the first woman.

When the people brought that adulterous woman to Jesus, nobody ever asks: “Where the hell was the dude?”. She was committing adultery, with a man, but the man is never to judge? Only the woman? Why does God favors men? The answer is he don´t because God is either man or female. God is both.
The answer my friend, is that those books were written by men, woman weren’t even allowed to read and write. The Bible and Quran were written by chauvinist men, and they need to be read from a neutral perspective.
Now we know better don’t we? We know that women are not inferior, but even superior in many aspects. We need to read the scriptures knowing that it has the hand of men dealing with their own personal judgments.

[(Q)]

We know that women are not inferior, but even superior in many aspects. We need to read the scriptures knowing that it has the hand of men dealing with their own personal judgments.

By your logic, we shouldn't be reading scriptures at all, other than to understand how not to act.

[sandy]

God is not both. He is a he. He is the great I am. Not some wishy-washy androgynous god.

[Wisdom_Seeker]

God is not both. He is a he. He is the great I am. Not some wishy-washy androgynous god.

If that is the case, He would be chasing a Goddess all over the Universe, buying her nice Worlds and shit.

"He" and "She" are the manifestation of dualism in our realm, God is the unification of that dualism, God is one.

[sandy]

No. God has bigger and better things to do than chase a female around.

God is not a shemale. He is the great I am. He is God. God the Father.

[Wisdom_Seeker]

No. God has bigger and better things to do than chase a female around.

God is not a shemale. He is the great I am. He is God. God the Father.

Then may the Goddess, our Mother, bless you