Star wars vs Star trek another way to think about it

[Fettman]

We know SW fans wont give up and ST fans wont give up so what about if the Republic found feds 1st would there be war or peace and trade?

[TW Scott]

Am torn, mostly becuase the Federation is a fascist police state. It needs to be taken down and rebuilt inot a true free democracy. Something they don't really have.

I would say peace first, but then after the republic learns what kind of place the federation has become, war.

Note I only think TNG and beyond has become fascist, TOS it was still an idealistic body.

[Enterprise-D]

How cynical TW...how cynical. Please tell me how TNG et al became fascist?

But of course Star Wars' Republic can show the Federation something about a free democracy right? Give me a break.

[TW Scott]

How cynical TW...how cynical. Please tell me how TNG et al became fascist?

Did you not see the episodes with the Maquis. The Federation handed over planets in it's territory that were not members, just becuase it was politically expedient. Then when said group fought against the race that was exterminating them the Federation didn't help them, oh no, they helped the genocidal assholes instead.

Then there is Insurrection that spoke for itself.

Add into the fact that a Secuirity officer can, by looking up your name, get every little detail about you including what planets you went to, your school records, your favorite food, and your underwear preference.

The add in that inside the Federation YOU CANNOT OWN A BUSINESS BIGGER THAN A RESTUARANT OR FARM as evidenced by everything TNG and beyond. Anything bigger than the family restuarant or farm is either a federation or colonial endeavor. There is a complete lack of free enterprise inside the federation.

[Challenger78]

Starfleet is the military and explorational arm of the Federation hence a security officer can access your records. However a random citizen cannot,
The federation's act of appeasing the Cardassian's was wrong , however they were willing to take back those worlds after Cardassia started acting aggresively with the dominion.

Also, you can have free enterprise, you can trade or be a merchant. which doesn't have to be federation wide.

[Hellblade8]

Did you not see the episodes with the Maquis. The Federation handed over planets in it's territory that were not members, just becuase it was politically expedient. Then when said group fought against the race that was exterminating them the Federation didn't help them, oh no, they helped the genocidal assholes instead.

Actually, those planets did belong to the UFP. They didn't like the idea, but they where rejected. It wasn't really right, double so given how sadly weak the UFP is, but its what happens. And the UFP doesn't support terrorists.

Then there is Insurrection that spoke for itself.

What did they do there?

The add in that inside the Federation YOU CANNOT OWN A BUSINESS BIGGER THAN A RESTUARANT OR FARM as evidenced by everything TNG and beyond. Anything bigger than the family restuarant or farm is either a federation or colonial endeavor. There is a complete lack of free enterprise inside the federation.

Where is this? Just because the UFP has a large buisness, it doesn't mean a private buisness can't get like that. It just doesn't because people aren't focused on money anymore, but rather, improving themselves. Thus, they have smaller shops because no one needs to get into that kind of buisness anymore.

[Hard For Kirk]

As long as this was what those barbarians were doing there would be not conflict.

[USS Athens]

As long as this was what those barbarians were doing there would be not conflict.

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[fLuX]

Blasphemy. Pure and utter, blasphemy.

[Stray Dog5]

No Wonder what is happening, my eyes got burned by your picture, and the what in the world do you mean that there is no free enterprise, sure you have to pay but hey at least the federation has rights, unlike two ugly dictators, who hide in the shadows and kill anyone they don't like, that's SW for ya.

[Stray Dog5]

i find that in case of a dead thread you should give it a good huzzah and not like the one hard for kirk pic is. so how about this............

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...:429,r:16,s:73

[fedr808]

Am torn, mostly becuase the Federation is a fascist police state. It needs to be taken down and rebuilt inot a true free democracy. Something they don't really have.

I would say peace first, but then after the republic learns what kind of place the federation has become, war.

Note I only think TNG and beyond has become fascist, TOS it was still an idealistic body.

I'm sorry, but you used to say that the feds were commies. hypocrit much?


Besides the fact that star trek has more examples of communism than of fascism, especially the federation. And it works out well.

[TW Scott]

I'm sorry, but you used to say that the feds were commies. hypocrit much?


Besides the fact that star trek has more examples of communism than of fascism, especially the federation. And it works out well.

Sorry but you can have communist tendencies in a facist state. It's how most facists hide their abuses of power.

[Stray Dog5]

Like what Mr. scott I have seen the federation be a peacekeeping,humanitarian, peaceful place. I would like to know what's communist and what's fascism your referring to.

[fedr808]

Scott is just pulling it out of ass, like the rest of his arguments

[Nasor]

Like what Mr. scott I have seen the federation be a peacekeeping,humanitarian, peaceful place. I would like to know what's communist and what's fascism your referring to.

Fascism is indeed characterized by a high degree of government control over industry and commerce, which is consistent with a lot of what we see about how Federation society works. Part of the original idea behind fascism as a political system is the notion that society will run better when the activities of everyone are coordinated toward the common good of the society, rather than having lots of different factions that are all simply out for themselves (like you often get with capitalism). A key difference between fascism and communism is that under fascism people can still privately own capital, even if the government has a very heavy say in how the economy is run. That seems to fit reasonably well with what they show us in ST:TNG and beyond. People can still privately own stuff, but all the major industry seems to be controlled by the Federation. They also go on and on about how people work selflessly for "the betterment of humanity blah blah blah" instead of for personal gain, which fits very well with the ideology that underlies fascism.

That being said, all things considered the Federation is probably communist rather than fascist. There simply doesn't appear to be any major privately-owned industry in the Federation. There's never any mention of corporations in the Federation by the time of TNG. Everything is just done by "the Federation." People don't even get paid, apparently - their society has no money. Not having money is an utterly retarded concept, but whatever. They don't have banks, or investments, or anything like that. No private ownership of capital + government control over the economy = communism. If you want it to work within the established timeline of the shows, it appears that the Federation was fascist with a strong communist bent around the time of the original series, and went over to communism totally by the time of TNG.

[Stray Dog5]

Really that seems about right.

[Kittamaru]

You guys are basing all these statements on a "modern day" economic model... Star Trek doesn't have an "economy" like that - do recall, as per Picard to Lily in First Contact:

"The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves, and the rest of humanity."

So... yeah. I wouldn't say it's fascist or communist... after all, the elect a president and a council, the people get a say in what happens (and are generally free to do pretty much whatever the hell they please within reasonable limits)... I mean, it's pretty utopian to be honest. No need for money, anything you want (within reason of course) you can pretty much replicate up on the spot, no hunger/poverty, crime is all but eliminated (of course you still have assholes that feel a need to go fuck things up for others, but meh, they get dealt with). The Federation puts down a list of rules that, to be honest, make sense... don't share advanced tech (specifically weapons/shields technology) with those who aren't ready for it (duh?). Don't interfere in the natural progression of a civilization (again, herp derp simple). Don't be a dick and go kill people you don't like (herp derp). I mean... a lot of it is common sense stuff. yeah, they've fucked up - I think that's to be expected of any governmental body, especially when you are trying to govern a multitude of planets WHILE allowing for them to be their own free worlds with their own culture.

[Stray Dog5]

I agree with more of that argument then with anything else said

[Nasor]

You guys are basing all these statements on a "modern day" economic model... Star Trek doesn't have an "economy" like that - do recall, as per Picard to Lily in First Contact:

"The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves, and the rest of humanity."

So... yeah. I wouldn't say it's fascist or communist... after all, the elect a president and a council, the people get a say in what happens (and are generally free to do pretty much whatever the hell they please within reasonable limits)... I mean, it's pretty utopian to be honest. No need for money, anything you want (within reason of course) you can pretty much replicate up on the spot...

First off, there's nothing about elections that's incompatible with either fascism or communism. The relevant questions are 1) who owns all the means of production? and 2) who decides what should be done with it? If the answer to both questions is "the government," then they're communists pretty much by definition.

Second, just because they have unlimited food and simple consumer items doesn't mean that they don't still have an economy. They can't just replicate up new starships, or buildings, or star bases, or entire colonies, or whatever on demand. Those things still need to be built by workers, and their construction will consume limited resources, and all sorts of capital will be needed to do it (construction equipment, space docks, etc.). So...who owns the space docks, construction equipment, and raw materials that goes into building a starship? And who decides what to do with them? Again, since it appears that the answer is "the Federation," they're communists.

Also, replicators aren't really that big of a deal. They can only provide people with relatively simple stuff. It's often stated that replicated food isn't as good as real food, and they can't seem to replicate most complex equipment or devices. They never replicate new phasers, tricorders, etc. If you think about it, most people today can already get all the stuff that they get from replicators. Sure, you have to pay for it, but pretty much everyone can easily afford low-quality food and miscellaneous cheap consumer crap. The sorts of stuff that people can't necessarily afford (big flat-screen TVs, computers, cars, a bigger house) probably couldn't be replicated anyway.