God vs. Heisenburg

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Neutrino_Albatross, Apr 9, 2002.

  1. Neutrino_Albatross Legion of Dynamic Discord Registered Senior Member

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    God is Easily disproven through Quantum mechanics.

    1. The Heisenburg uncertainty priciple states that it is impossible to know the position and momentum of a particle at the same time. You can know one or the other but not both. An all knowing god is a direct contridiction to this

    2. The copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics says that untill a quantum system is observed it exists in a superposition of all posible states. It has been measured in expeiments that superposition of states does exist. If god is some all seeing observer he would cause the superposition of states to end so therefore no experiments would show these results.

    3. The outcome of a quantum reaction is totally random so therefore unknowable. Meaning god cant predict it.

    4. For god to "see" what is going on everywhere else he must exchange a particle with it. Since nothing can travel faster than light he can't "see" anything that the light hasen't reached him for. It would also require an infinite number of particle interactions which should be easily detectable.

    5. The observer is an important part of any quantum system. As the ultimate observer god would show up in every quantum experiment which he dosen't.

    6. Quantum mechanics eliminates the need for a god in one of two ways. In the Copenhagen interpretation the universe exsists in a superposition of sates until intelligent life becomes possible. That possibility causes the waveform collapse in such a way so intelligent life evolves. the other possibility is that there are a near infinite number of multiple universes so its amolst inevitable for intelegent life to evolve in some of them.

    If God exists quantum mechanics must be wrong and there is a lot more experimental evidence for quantum mechanics than god.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2002
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  3. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Neutrino,

    Hi and welcome to sciforums.

    Nice try but I think your suggestion rests on material interactions. Gods are defined as being immaterial; a form of existence that is beyond our comprehension. Presumably such a god would not need to exchange particles to observe quantum states.

    So you would need to show that an immaterial god must become material in some form for it to interact at the quantum level.

    Cris
     
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  5. Neutrino_Albatross Legion of Dynamic Discord Registered Senior Member

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    Some do require material existance but the ones involving the role of the observer do not, and my point that there dose not need to be a god still holds. Anywayanything that is not material dosent exist so by your own argument there is no god.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2002
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  7. Raithere plagued by infinities Valued Senior Member

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  8. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Neutrino,

    That’s true but only as far as science is concerned since science only studies the material universe.

    Can we be sure that there isn’t another form of existence that is not material?

    Cris
     
  9. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    Can we be sure that there is no Tooth Fairy? No Puff the Magic Dragon? Can we be absolutely sure of anything?

    Reminds me of a poem!

    Robert Service.
     
  10. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Xev,

    Ah ha, you haven’t seen my earlier posts about my IIFGE (Invisible Immaterial Flying Green Elephant).

    You see, using inductive logic and the statements from truthseeker who says that anything is possible (probably using love), then my IIFGE must exist, and if an IIFGE can exist well then so can gods, right?

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    Cris
     
  11. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    Cris:

    Well, I'm ready to convert! What are the tenents of 'Invisible Flying Green Elephent -ism'?

    Oh wait, there is Cthulhu....

    I shall confess, this is what got me started on my babbling about Great Cthulhu.

    I attempted to clarify Aquinas' 'proof' of God's existance by substituting 'Great Cthulhu' for 'God'.
     
  12. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    I don't think the word "god" refers to a being which is intrinsically immaterial. Check out Cthulhu.

    As for that Uncertainty thing and not being able to measure both position and motion at the same time, well, maybe some day we'll be able to. It's really not such a great big whopping LAW.
     
  13. SpyFox_the_KMeson Doctorate of Yiffology Registered Senior Member

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    Yiffy!

    Um, actually Adam, this uncertainty thing *is* a law. We will never ever ever be able to measure the exact position and momentum of a particle. If you think this isn't a law, go ask a physicist. As for god being immaterial... for god to know anything about the universe he'd have to interact with it. Just drop me an email when we measure the god interaction. (And please don't post saying we already have, we haven't.) Stay out of trouble you crazy kids.

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  14. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    Re: Yiffy!

    Nice future-telling abilities you have there.

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  15. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Spyfox,

    I agree with Adam, laws can change. I believe Newton had some nice laws of motion until Einstein pointed out a need to change them.

    Never say never, since we cannot know what the future holds.

    Cris
     
  16. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Quantum Physics.

    The issue here is that the process of observing affects what is being observed so we can never obtain an accurate observation.

    The limitation comes from our current methods of observation, i.e. an exchange of particles. And I will admit I can't imagine any other potential method, but the human race has proved itself ingenious in many ways, so maybe there will be a way one day.

    In the meantime we have little choice but to assume the law is true and work with it until we have evidence that indicates a change is needed.

    The Supernatural.

    The issue with an alleged supernatural realm is again one of observation and detection. All the time it is allegedly immaterial then it can never interact with our material universe. It will have all the properties identical to an item that does not exist, in which case as far as we are concerned it doesn’t exist.

    If an alleged supernatural entity (e.g. gods and souls) can be shown to interact with the material universe then that entity will have become material or have a material component. At that point the phenomena will lose its mystery and will move from the realm of superstition and into the realm of science where it can be studied and understood.

    So far no such material interactions have been detected and there seems to be no credible reason to expect such interactions will ever be detected.

    Note that this isn't a law that one day might change, but the supernatural is just another unsubstantiated hypothesis that has so far not been able to attract any supporting evidence.

    Cris
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2002
  17. Mech_The_Muon No, not Moron you twit! Registered Senior Member

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    The Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle is a fundemental law of nature. If you can disprove it (HAHAHAHAHA), then I might consider believing in a god.
     
  18. Neutrino_Albatross Legion of Dynamic Discord Registered Senior Member

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    Actualy its easy to prove something is wrong, 2+2=5 is wrong and easily proven wrong. Its actually impossible to prove anything right, all you can do is keep experimenting untill an experiment disproves the theory.

    For those of you who say that the uncertainty principle is wrong you should know that all experimental evidence suggests that the uncertainty priciple is in fact the most fundemental law of the universe. I accept that it may be wrong but not according to any current evidence which is the only thing that counts.


    However I will accept an immaterial god that dosent show up in experiments. This would require that god is incapable of interacting with normal matter so not only could he not have created the universe he cant control it or even see whats going on in it.

    If nessesary i can give exact experimental evidence for anyof my points. Id just like to see any of you give me evidence for god.

    P.S. Cant any of you attack my other points they're so much more interesting to argue about

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    Last edited: Apr 10, 2002
  19. SpyFox_the_KMeson Doctorate of Yiffology Registered Senior Member

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  20. malcolm Registered Member

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    Playing The God's Advocate!

    1) The Heisenburg uncertainty priciple states that it is impossible to know the position and momentum of a particle at the same time.

    This would be true if you were not that particle and only observing it.

    2) Holism or non-seperability of physics would create a scenario where this principle would not contradict God. God would be the in part the superimposed state rather than externally observing the state.

    3) Nothing is wholely random as in chaos theory it never returns to the state once travelled. Over time the predictability would increase until the last position would be known prior to the event.

    4) For god to "see" what is going on everywhere else he must exchange a particle with it. Since nothing can travel faster than light he can't "see" anything that the light hasen't reached him for.

    Well one thing does travel faster than light. Quantum communication exchanging information under the conditions of quantum entanglement. Appearing instantaneous. So again if God was the greater whole than the sum of the parts and was a superposition on All real members of exisatnce and quantumly entagled with All real members then it is possible for such a definition of God to be "Aware" of all real members of existance.

    5) As the ultimate observer god would show up in every quantum experiment which he dosen't.

    Doesn't God. What if God was the greater whole of the sum of the parts and as such entangled with all parts in a holisitc system. Everything we would see would be part of such a God.

    6) Intelligence has not eliminated the process of superposition and entanglement proves it. In fact entanglement of awareness on a universal scale would create a situation where the observed knew to react to the observer. Why would it happen? Possibly becuase awareness is a system wide event and inter-dependent.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2003
  21. ConsequentAtheist Registered Senior Member

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    No. If God(s) exist it/they are not subject to the laws of physics. In other words, you've noted that a supernatural deity must be supernatural - a somewhat underwhelming announcement.
     
  22. Zero Banned Banned

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    Adam, do you even know what a scientific law is? If not, kindly leave and kiss a camel's ass.

    So sick of those idiots who don't know what a scientific theory is and what a scientific law is.

    World famous N00b quote:
    "But it's just a theory and not a LAW, so THERE!"

    It exudes a powerful stench of mental retardation ......


    And same insult goes to those idiots who think science is static.

    The one massive advantage science has over religion in explaining this world is PROGRESS: science constantly changes and corrects itself as new info comes in. Religion just yells It contradicts my GOD it's BLASPHEMY and HERESY and ends up looking as moronic as the RCC.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2003
  23. malcolm Registered Member

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    6
    Zero

    Consider this.

    Can a logical system adapt it's indemonstratable premises under the theories of foundationalism?

    It may adapt it's conclusions but not the foundation premises.

    A God believer could be considered person who adheres to logical systems that merely assume in the indemonstratable axiomic set the premise that God exists.

    Religions go one further to assume in their logical sets the various scriptures they assume to be true.

    Though all axiomic systems must have premises which must be assumed true because backward validation would be circular in nature and inconsistant.

    Granted even math is not internally consistant and all quantitative logical systems assume it as a indemonstratable premise in their axiomic sets.

    The old argument that my belief is better than yours because I make better assumptions is hardly valid when you cannot demonstrate those assumptions.
     

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